Who would get the most use out of the complete Fighting pool?

[killigraphy]

They were never worth anything back then, and even less now. There's so many other power pool choices and or travel powers that, they're really useless.

[Lexelot]

Ice melee on anything. Greater Ice Sword is terrible and they could benefit from another attack. Especially with the double dipping boxing+kick buff to cross punch.

Edited June 14, 2020 by Lexelot

[Bopper]

3 hours ago, killigraphy said:

They were never worth anything back then, and even less now. There's so many other power pool choices and or travel powers that, they're really useless.

How is that possible "even less now"? Do you know how much the powers are buffed with Max Synergy? Kick is still too slow for me, but the DPA of Boxing is adequate. Both may not be in your rotation at end game but both would be utilized if exemplared low enough.

 

But the best of them all is Cross Punch. Give me a solid melee cone attack that hits as hard as Haymaker and gives me a 6 second +10% recharge buff and +10% to-hit buff for each target I hit? Yes please. 

 

Edit: looking through everything, Max Synergy Cross Punch is a slightly stronger version of Stone Mallet (1.65 scale vs 1.64), and has same Arcanatime (1.848s). So ultimately an AoE with slightly better DPA than Stone Mallet plus extra buffs.

Edited June 14, 2020 by Bopper

[Galaxy Brain]

Cross punch is super super good just for the buffs per hit alone imo

[killigraphy]

2 hours ago, Bopper said:

How is that possible "even less now"? Do you know how much the powers are buffed with Max Synergy? Kick is still too slow for me, but the DPA of Boxing is adequate. Both may not be in your rotation at end game but both would be utilized if exemplared low enough.

 

But the best of them all is Cross Punch. Give me a solid melee cone attack that hits as hard as Haymaker and gives me a 6 second +10% recharge buff and +10% to-hit buff for each target I hit? Yes please. 

 

Edit: looking through everything, Max Synergy Cross Punch is a slightly stronger version of Stone Mallet (1.65 scale vs 1.64), and has same Arcanatime (1.848s). So ultimately an AoE with slightly better DPA than Stone Mallet plus extra buffs.

 

Better more unique powers in other pools....

 

Inherent powers like Sands of Mu, Staff,  IO's increasing recharge  speeds, etc....

 

More options that are better, than a very standard and low hitting punch and or kick. They're better mules power at that. So yes, even more useless these days.

[lemming]

I'm having fun with an Energy/Martial Blaster with the fighting pool. 

[Crashen]

I was leveling a mind/dark 'troller. Was having fun going along, until I got to First Ward and started fighting the Awakened. After my third unfortunate death at the tentacles of an Awakened boss who was essentially immune to psionic attacks, I rejiggered my abilities, dropped a travel power (I just bought a jetpack instead) and skipped Telekinesis (yes it can be very very powerful, but I solo mainly so the end-suck isn't worth it) and squeezed in Kick/Boxing/Cross Punch. 

 

Whew boy that was a game changer. Robots, zombies, and Awakened? Yeah I beat them to death with my own two fists now. It's a ton of fun. Containment is great with the Fighting synergy. Boxing and Kick do about as much damage as Dominate and Mesmerize, Cross Punch quite a bit more. Containment doubles it all. But Boxing/Kick/Cross Punch have much, much quicker cooldowns and activations. So I can get quite a few melee attacks in between Dominate. It feels good, it plays well, and I can easily skip Black Hole, Telekinesis and a travel power and get by just fine. I wouldn't take it on a Dominator, as they have better melee attacks available (usually), but it might be worth taking on a Defender or a more passive Master Mind. I started a merc/rad MM using the Fighting pool, but swapped to Force of Will when that became available. Then made a Thugs/Force FIeld MM with the intent of building it around Force of Will. No reason you can't take a more Set & Forget secondary powerset on an MM and pair it with some melee minions, or be your little posse's 'tank'. Buff em all up with bubbles, and then punch away. Maybe grab medicine for spot healing.

[Bopper]

1 hour ago, killigraphy said:

 

Better more unique powers in other pools....

 

Inherent powers like Sands of Mu, Staff,  IO's increasing recharge  speeds, etc....

 

More options that are better, than a very standard and low hitting punch and or kick. They're better mules power at that. So yes, even more useless these days.

What numbers are you basing this on? You know with max synergy, Boxing, Kick, and Cross Punch gets a 30% increase to their base damage. That turns Boxing's 0.76 damage scale into 0.988. It turns Cross Punch's 1.27 damage scale into 1.65.

 

I challenge you to find better attacks from non-Origin Pool powers (which are intended to be better powers). I think your opinions are based on not understanding what Synergy does, which is fine...things have changed since Live and we have to relearn things.

[killigraphy]

On 6/14/2020 at 8:01 PM, Bopper said:

What numbers are you basing this on? You know with max synergy, Boxing, Kick, and Cross Punch gets a 30% increase to their base damage. That turns Boxing's 0.76 damage scale into 0.988. It turns Cross Punch's 1.27 damage scale into 1.65.

 

I challenge you to find better attacks from non-Origin Pool powers (which are intended to be better powers). I think your opinions are based on not understanding what Synergy does, which is fine...things have changed since Live and we have to relearn things.

 

I'd rather take everything from the Leadership pool....and that's a classic.  We can dabble with the new ones like Force of Will, which is far more useful than punch and kick.

[Bopper]

11 minutes ago, killigraphy said:

 

I'd rather take everything from the Leadership pool....and that's a classic.  We can dabble with the new ones like Force of Will, which is far more useful than punch and kick.

I asked for you to find me better attacks from non-Origin Pool powers and you gave me a set with no attacks and another set that is an Origin Pool. That's fine if you like Leadership pool more, it's a good set; but it's not pertinent to this topic of discussion. As for Force of Will, that's an Origin Pool - so yeah, it's supposed to be stronger. But is it?

 

Let's compare Max Synergy Fighting Pool with Force of Will. 

Boxing: 0.988 scale, 1.32s arcantime, 0.748 DPA, 35% chance for Mag 3 stun, 2.5s recharge, -2% endurance, -5% recovery for 4 seconds.

 

Kick: 1.092 scale, 1.98s arcanatime, 0.552 DPA, 40% chance for 0.67 KB, 3s recharge, -3% endurance, -5% recovery for 4 seconds.

 

Cross Punch: 1.651 scale, 1.848s arcanatime, 0.893 DPA, 7' radius 50 degree arc (5 tgts max), 40% chance for 0.67 KB,  20% chance for Mag 3 stun, 8s recharge, +10% recharge for 6 seconds per target hit (can stack), +10% to-hit for 6 seconds per target hit (can stack)

 

Now let's look at the two Force of Will attacks.

Project Will: 1.16 scale, 2.244s arcanatime, 0.517 DPA, 80' range, 5s recharge, 25% chance for 0.67 KB

 

Wall of Force: 0.645 scale, 2.64s arcanatime, 0.244 DPA, 40' range 90 degree arc (10 tgts max), 10s recharge, 33% chance for 0.67 KB.

 

I highlighted the DPA results. I used the normalized damage scale divided by arcanatime to come up with these numbers. What does it mean? Well that will depend on the AT that you use. Each AT will have different damage modifiers for Melee attacks and Range attacks that would need to be applied to these normalized DPA values to come up with a true DPA for each AT. But, one thing you'll find is the disparity between Range damage modifier and Melee damage modifier usually favors the Melee side (or are equal). The largest ratio between Melee:Range is the Defender which has a 0.55 Melee Damage modifier versus a 0.65 Range Damage modifier. Let's plug in the defender numbers and compare.

Boxing: 30.23 dmg, 22.90 DPA

Kick: 33.40 dmg, 16.87 DPA

Cross Punch: 50.49 dmg, 27.32 DPA

Project Will: 41.93 dmg, 18.69 DPA

Wall of Force: 23.31 dmg, 8.83 DPA

 

As you can see Boxing and Cross Punch are better than Project Will in DPA....even for a Defender. Even Kick is somewhat comparable to Project Will...somehow. And Wall of Force...wow, that power is a near equivalent to Shockwave from Sonic Attack..not good. And let's review, not only does Boxing and Cross Punch have better DPA, but the entire Fighting Pool (at Max Synergy) has a better chance at a status effect (35% and 40% is better than 20% and 33%), plus the Fighting Pool comes with extra buffs and debuffs. The only think Force of Will has going for it, it does slow ranged attacks.

 

So once again, I challenge you to find better attacks from Pool Powers that out perform Max Synergy Fighting Pool. If you want to take other pool powers for your builds, that's fine. But this topic is discussing the merits of going after the complete Fighting Pool if there's space available to. And don't feel bad if you didn't know about Synergy before this...it was new to me when I returned to COH: Homecoming. Hopefully, though, these numbers will help you understand how powerful the Fighting Pool can be (for a Pool Power).

 

 

 

Bonus Coverage: For argument's sake, I showed one end of the spectrum with the Defender numbers punched in, how about we try a melee character. Let's say a Tanker, which I believe has a 0.95 Melee damage modifier versus a 0.80 Range damage modifier. Long story short...even Kick has better DPA than Project Will, and it's not very close.

Boxing: 52.20 dmg, 39.54 DPA

Kick: 57.69 dmg, 29.14 DPA

Cross Punch: 87.22 dmg, 47.20 DPA

Project Will: 51.6 dmg, 22.99 DPA

Wall of Force: 28.68 dmg, 10.86 DPA

[killigraphy]

48 minutes ago, Bopper said:

I asked for you to find me better attacks from non-Origin Pool powers and you gave me a set with no attacks and another set that is an Origin Pool. That's fine if you like Leadership pool more, it's a good set; but it's not pertinent to this topic of discussion. As for Force of Will, that's an Origin Pool - so yeah, it's supposed to be stronger. But is it....

 

Wasn't my point, stop moving the goal post. There are better powers in other pools, than Kick and Punch....new and old. two very weak attacks, are overshadowed by; Leadership, Speed, Force of Will, etc. There's no way  I'm going to take a kick and a punch over hasten and or say Hover.  I'll take a Def All + Pseudo KB prot over two weak attacks.

[Bopper]

1 minute ago, killigraphy said:

 

Wasn't my point, stop moving the goal post. There are better powers in other pools, than Kick and Punch....new and old. two very weak attacks, are overshadowed by; Leadership, Speed, Force of Will, etc. There's no way  I'm going to take a kick and a punch over hasten and or say Hover.  I'll take a Def All + Pseudo KB prot over two weak attacks.

Then don't.

[Parabola]

17 minutes ago, killigraphy said:

 

Wasn't my point, stop moving the goal post. There are better powers in other pools, than Kick and Punch....new and old. two very weak attacks, are overshadowed by; Leadership, Speed, Force of Will, etc. There's no way  I'm going to take a kick and a punch over hasten and or say Hover.  I'll take a Def All + Pseudo KB prot over two weak attacks.

At no point in this discussion has anyone said that the goal is to take the entire fighting pool to the exclusion of all other pool powers. The topic being discussed is what character might benefit the most if they were to take the whole pool. The analysis that Bopper has given about the relative merits of the attacks against other pool and main set attacks is entirely relevant, comparisons against powers from other pools that do entirely different things isn't. And his analysis also proves that they aren't entirely 'weak attacks' given the synergy bonus but whether they out dpa other options will depend on what AT and what powersets we are talking about. Which is the subject of this discussion.

[Bopper]

3 minutes ago, killigraphy said:

Okay...move  along now kid, next time don't quote me because a post triggers you.

You're being a bit sensitive. I was merely implying that you should play your way. But if you would like to discuss the merits of other powers and compare them to the powers in Fighting pool (which is what this topic is about), then tell me the powers you prefer to take. But so far everything you suggested, I addressed and provided evidence in support of my claim. You have provided nothing to this conversation. But if your argument is simply "I like Hasten, I like Leadership, I like Force of Will" and then provide nothing beyond that, nothing to suggest as to why you prefer those powers, then your presence here isn't needed. In the end, this topic is simply to discuss who COULD benefit from taking the entire Fighting Pool, and you chose to interject into that conversation by saying "Fighting Pool sucks, it always has" with no evidence to back up that claim nor having any reason for providing such an outburst. But your pattern of behavior on the forums has shown that this is normal for you, so I'm not surpised.

[Parabola]

Getting us back on track. Given that masterminds would seem decent candidates for this with their limited and end heavy attack options a thugs mm would seem fitting from a theme perspective if nothing else. Thugs aren't all melee so it wouldn't have that synergy but a thug leading other thugs and getting stuck into the fight themselves has a good ring to it. You'd need a secondary that gave you the room to pick up a lot of pool choices though.

[Bopper]

13 minutes ago, parabola said:

Getting us back on track. Given that masterminds would seem decent candidates for this with their limited and end heavy attack options a thugs mm would seem fitting from a theme perspective if nothing else. Thugs aren't all melee so it wouldn't have that synergy but a thug leading other thugs and getting stuck into the fight themselves has a good ring to it. You'd need a secondary that gave you the room to pick up a lot of pool choices though.

Hmmm...I see what you're going for. I don't have any experience with MMs, but I wonder if Dark Miasma would be a good pairing. I think most of the must have powers you get early, and there's probably a handful you could skip. I wonder if Time could also be an option. Sadly, one of its skippable powers you are forced to take...so perhaps not.

[Parabola]

7 minutes ago, Bopper said:

Hmmm...I see what you're going for. I don't have any experience with MMs, but I wonder if Dark Miasma would be a good pairing. I think most of the must have powers you get early, and there's probably a handful you could skip. I wonder if Time could also be an option. Sadly, one of its skippable powers you are forced to take...so perhaps not.

Yeah that was exactly my thought on time. Such a shame that the heal isn't the tier 1 power. You can live without the hold and the amplifier power (forget the name) is skippable but the rest are pretty much must takes. From dark you'd always want the heal, tar patch, darkest night, the aura, fearsome stare and probably fluffy. You could drop howling twilight if you weren't going big game hunting and were really tight on picks. The stun is very skippable and the hold again could be lived without. Then again it's been a while since I played an mm (and I'm not in front of mids), do they have much that is must take from their epics? Could that be what stands aside for more fighting powers?

[Bopper]

3 minutes ago, parabola said:

Yeah that was exactly my thought on time. Such a shame that the heal isn't the tier 1 power. You can live without the hold and the amplifier power (forget the name) is skippable but the rest are pretty much must takes. From dark you'd always want the heal, tar patch, darkest night, the aura, fearsome stare and probably fluffy. You could drop howling twilight if you weren't going big game hunting and were really tight on picks. The stun is very skippable and the hold again could be lived without. Then again it's been a while since I played an mm (and I'm not in front of mids), do they have much that is must take from their epics? Could that be what stands aside for more fighting powers?

No clue honestly. I played an MM for about 32 levels back on live, and never saw epics. I suppose going for Scorpion Shield is viable, and Power Boost is in the same set for the Time Manipulation MMs. I'll defer to MM players, though. They could provide better insight than I could.

[Coyote]

4 hours ago, parabola said:

Getting us back on track. Given that masterminds would seem decent candidates for this with their limited and end heavy attack options a thugs mm would seem fitting from a theme perspective if nothing else. Thugs aren't all melee so it wouldn't have that synergy but a thug leading other thugs and getting stuck into the fight themselves has a good ring to it. You'd need a secondary that gave you the room to pick up a lot of pool choices though.

 

Thugs MMs do benefit from standing back and firing Empty Clips and Dual Wield for FF procs to try to bring Gang War up faster.

But they would be a candidate for the Fighting Pool, since Cross Punch also helps there, and the End cost is a lot more reasonable.

As for secondary, I strongly vote for Rad... it gets all of its powers early, it has a good amount of skippables, and it plays well by running into its toggles alongside the Bruiser.

[jacehan]

I decided an MM does make sense since they are short on attacks anyway - my other MM already takes the attack from Sorcery to boost his lack of an attack chain. Went with Ninjas/Traps because the ninjas will be in melee and the traps can self-buff as well when mixing it up. Only level 15 but enjoying it so far.

[Bopper]

7 minutes ago, killigraphy said:

 

You moved the goal post, read my initial post again, and move on, we got nothing left to discuss here.

What goal posts do you keep referring to? You haven't defined any of your arguments yet, so while you're talking about goal posts, I'm just trying to find what field you're playing on.

 

Since you are insulting others on reading comprehension for no reason, I will quote myself in my addresses to you so there is no chance for further confusion.

 

On 6/14/2020 at 5:01 PM, Bopper said:

What numbers are you basing this on?

My question, which you have yet to answer, was for you to provide numbers on why you think Fighting Pool attacks are worthless. Can you provide your opinion with evidence, or not? I need you to show me the goal post as you make this claim.

 

On 6/14/2020 at 5:01 PM, Bopper said:

I challenge you to find better attacks from non-Origin Pool powers (which are intended to be better powers).

I asked for you to provide us with examples of ATTACKS from NON-ORIGIN POOL powers. Is this what you meant by me moving the goal post? Because I asked for comparable powers that is pertinent to this topic? Eitherway, your response to this was "I like all the powers in Leadership more" and "I like Force of Will powers". Cool. Doesn't answer what I asked, but I still engaged by doing an analysis of the only ATTACKS from those 2 sets. That wasn't me moving the goal posts, as your goal posts have yet to be defined. Until you can say why something is better, or what makes something better, I have no way of engaging. I can only assume we're talking about the quality of damage and effects an attack has, and I went into great detail in my comparisons of the two. You're welcome.

 

8 hours ago, Bopper said:

That's fine if you like Leadership pool more, it's a good set; but it's not pertinent to this topic of discussion.

Here I told you, it's fine for you to pick other powers. Play your way. Nobody in this ENTIRE THREAD has said you should not take other pool powers. So stay on topic. Our goal posts are defined. The goal posts are, what builds (ATs/Powersets) would have the most use for taking the entire Fighting Pool. If you don't have a build that can take advantage of the entire Fighting Pool, fine. But stop arguing something that isn't being discussed and stop attacking posters in this thread (or on the forum in general). Your pattern of abuse and misinformation since you've joined the forums has been noticed. So please troll...go somewhere else. You're not needed in this conversation.

 

[MTeague]

On 6/13/2020 at 6:01 PM, Bopper said:

Super Strength. Cross Punch would give it a 2nd AoE and its DPA is on par with Haymaker (the 2nd best DPA attack SS has, sadly).

Also, max synergy Boxing is better DPA than both Jab and Punch. So if you want to use it as a T1 type filler, it's not bad (not great either). More useful if exemplaring.

Interesting.  Would Boxing/Kick/Crosspunch get the Punch-Voke/Poke-Voke effect when used by a Tanker/Brute?

Or would the extra AE / stronger punches come at some expense of aggro management?

Or do you toss in the occasional Jab to get in misc taunting punches?

[Bopper]

6 minutes ago, MTeague said:

Interesting.  Would Boxing/Kick/Crosspunch get the Punch-Voke/Poke-Voke effect when used by a Tanker/Brute?

Or would the extra AE / stronger punches come at some expense of aggro management?

Or do you toss in the occasional Jab to get in misc taunting punches?

That's a great question that I'm not sure of. I'm away from home so I can't look into it, but I'll try to look stuff up tonight.

 

Ultimately, Footstomp and Knockout Blow are my attention getters with Cross Punch, Gloom and Dark Obliteration interleaved.  I don't think I have ever not held attention, but I also have a taunt aura that might be doing the heavy lifting.

[MTeague]

8 minutes ago, Bopper said:

That's a great question that I'm not sure of. I'm away from home so I can't look into it, but I'll try to look stuff up tonight.

 

Ultimately, Footstomp and Knockout Blow are my attention getters with Cross Punch, Gloom and Dark Obliteration interleaved.  I don't think I have ever not held attention, but I also have a taunt aura that might be doing the heavy lifting.

That's a fair answer.  I admit, I'm seriously considering a possible respec on my Inv/SS tank, but a) also stuck at work, and b) mentally juggling the tanker ATO's and still needing X many qualifying powers to slot them into.  And my tank is only lvl 33, so no footstomp or epic powers for me yet.   Ah well. Not like I really need to decide in a rush.

[Bopper]

1 minute ago, MTeague said:

That's a fair answer.  I admit, I'm seriously considering a possible respec on my Inv/SS tank, but a) also stuck at work, and b) mentally juggling the tanker ATO's and still needing X many qualifying powers to slot them into.  And my tank is only lvl 33, so no footstomp or epic powers for me yet.   Ah well. Not like I really need to decide in a rush.

 My Primary has a damage aura so I was able to put an ATO into it. Invulnerability doesn't offer that option, so my guess is KoB and Footstomp are your obvious options. It's also possible you use Haymaker in your rotation (its not in my build, but it was my final cut), and if so it would be a perfect option. I'd hate to ever have to use Jab, so I can't recommend using it unless as a set mule (and save the proc for another attack).

 

If you post a build on Tanker forums, I'll check it out and see if I have any specific recommendations.