Hypothetical: How do you feel about adhering to old rules for new Epics?

[Replacement]

If new Epic sets were made, how many old design schemes would we adhere to?

 

There are a few prongs of this; I'm open to any commentary that broadly fits that category.  Let me give you my example first:

 

AT "Mirrors" - For example, Corruptors and Defenders share the same pools.  Do we... really care about this, if we were to make new ones?  There are already some minor breaks.  One example is MM and Blasters sharing pools, but blasters all lose a patron power for a pet.  Stalker/Brute versions of Body Mastery lose the (IMO, awful) Conserve Power for a passive +5% max endurance.

 

Would we care if new divisions were built?  Example, "This new Epic is available to all Blast-primary ATs."  Another would be, I have in my mind some ideas for a "Command" Epic that I imagine going to Tanker and Scrapper, countered by an "Undermine" pool for Stalkers and Brutes.

 

Other example patterns (not rules, to my knowledge):

 

Strict power selections - the tendancy to follow a pattern, such as Controller Ancillaries tending to give 1 ST ranged, 1 AoE ranged, an armor, and a recovery.  Body/Energy Masteries on the melees tend to already disrupt these patterns.  Would more disruptions be welcome?  Or would we prefer that when Scrappers finally get a Psionic option, that it fits the pattern of expectations?

Power scale rules - there's a broad rule (err design pattern?) of double recharge for Epics.  I'm actually a fan of this and don't think it should be broken, but including it here because it's a valid part of my topic worthy of anyone's commentary.

Specific AT "bleed" - this is basically an extension of "strict power selections" -- you can sort of see which ATs are allowed to bleed where.  Tankers and Brutes get a lot of powers from Controllers; Scrappers and Stalkers get a lot of Blast sets, usually with a debuff from a Support set.  Would you prefer to see these upheld?  or would you like, e.g. a "Defender-lite" option for everyone?

 

These questions are obviously open to the community, which I hope generates some feedback for the folks running the show but of course, I'd also love to know how Jimmy, CP, et al feel about the Epic Future.

 

Also, I vote new epics requiring a Praetorian quest, open to all alignments and factions.

Edited July 2, 2020 by Replacement
Hatred of the royal we

[BrandX]

If I recall, the reason Brutes/Stalkers lack Conserve Power in their Epic, is Energy Aura used to have Conserve Power.  I believe it was getting EA ported over to Scrapper, for them to finally fix EA, because Scrappers had CP in their Epics.

 

I feel it should be upheld, as then people would just be, "Well make this set this way!"

 

 

[golstat2003]

I think part of the problem when the devs tried to break this back in the day on live, was that you ended up having some sets getting the ability to have things like two fireballs or two rains of fire. They can break the mode, but have to be very careful with that. Folks are already complaining that there is too much AOE. I would be careful to open the flood gates to allow some primary/secondary combinations to get double the AOE they already have.

Edited July 2, 2020 by golstat2003

[Replacement]

Would you pare them down to a more simplistic set of rules, then?  Example: "Don't give melee ATs more than 1 decent AoE in any new sets" seems like a pretty straightforward design principle.  But I don't see the harm in giving, say, Stalkers a set that's mostly utility powers like Smoke Grenade and Surveillance + an 8 minute recharge aoe hold.

Edited July 2, 2020 by Replacement
pears

[Replacement]

Example of the "mirror" problem:

I think Psychic Lash would be an ideal Epic.  It's hard to flesh out full power sets with only 3 animations, but 3 whips + 2 misc psychic powers would be splendid.

 

I would like it to be available to Blasters, but I don't think it's wise to further incentivize "Petless Masterminds" by giving them access as well.

 

I think it'd be nice to let Controllers get in on the fun but I feel like if Dominators had it, it would lessen our likelihood of seeing an infernal/hellfire assault.

 

Of course, the easy answer here is to say "It is what it is, and what it is is very easy to port to stalker/scrapper," but melee gets all the fun.

 

In summary: whips for everyone.

[Chance Jackson]

I have no devotion to old patterns besides seeing them as a loose outline, not too long ago I suggested an Assault Rifle APP for Melees that was patterned after Brute/Tank Leviathan Mastery PPP including a Pet patterned off Mercenaries' Spec Ops & Commando Henchmen which compared to creating a new APP from scratch shouldn't take much time.

[Vanden]

 

3 hours ago, Replacement said:

AT "Mirrors" - For example, Corruptors and Defenders share the same pools.  Do we... really care about this, if we were to make new ones?  There are already some minor breaks.  One example is MM and Blasters sharing pools, but blasters all lose a patron power for a pet.  Stalker/Brute versions of Body Mastery lose the (IMO, awful) Conserve Power for a passive +5% max endurance.

While maybe it shouldn’t be a capital-R rule, per se, AT mirrors should naturally arise in the APPs because of their design. The whole purpose of APPs is to give characters access to the kinds of powers their primaries and secondaries typically don’t. Therefore, ATs like Defenders and Corruptors should end up getting the same APPs since they get the exact same sets. Something like Blasters and Masterminds sharing pools is really just an unfortunate reality of time limitations back when side-switching was implemented.

 

Also, Conserve Power is much better than Superior Conditioning. Conserve Power should give any character virtually unlimited endurance while it’s up, while Superior Conditioning is only good for muling another Performance Shifter proc.

Edited July 2, 2020 by Vanden

[Vanden]

3 hours ago, Replacement said:

Power scale rules - there's a broad rule (err design pattern?) of double recharge for Epics.  I'm actually a fan of this and don't think it should be broken, but including it here because it's a valid part of my topic worthy of anyone's commentary.

I actually would like to change this in one specific instance. The slow rollout of the unfinished Origin pools has made it clear that there’s a serious challenge in making the ranged attacks these pools offer worthwhile, while keeping them from overshadowing the ranged attacks available in APPs over 30 levels later. One solution I think has potential is to change only single-target ranged attacks in APPs to use 1.5x normal recharge, while ranged attacks in origin power pools use 2x recharge. This would help origin ranged powers be worthwhile without being just better than APP ranged attacks.

[Troo]

3 hours ago, Replacement said:

If new Epic sets were made, how many old design schemes would we adhere to?

While I would prefer new, I think we might at best get new concepts with same design & repurposed graphics.

Edited July 2, 2020 by Troo

[MTeague]

I think general rules should apply.   If the existing sets have "1 ranged, 1 melee, 1 control, 1 armor, 1 utility", then any new set should more or less meet that same standard. I don't think it would matter if one set got their utility power earlier vs later".  But no set should be overly lopsided in ways other sets aren't. 

 

There are alredy some variables. In addition to the Converse power thing for Brutes/Tanks, there's also "Psionic Mastery" for Controllers/Dominators, where Dominators get a "Link Minds" power, and controllers get "Mental Blast" instead.  Presumably, /Psionic Assault already has Mental Blast, and Doms in general are not hurting for more blast options.  However, again, within each AT, the masterys are about equal.  All the Dom epics seem to balance vs other Dom choices, and all Controller epics seem to balance vs other Controller choices.

 

I would not object if some tweaking were done to Corruptor or Defender sets, as long as for each AT, things were balanced.  Honestly though, I'm not sure Corruptors/Defenders need much variance there. They primary/secondaries are mirrors to each other, so by the time you're high level, you have access to basically the same powers, have basically the same holes, and not-terribly-different needs of what to get out of your epic pools.  But I'd be willing to look at specific proposals and give them a fair trial vs reject it out-of-hand.