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roleki

What does Heat Loss even do?

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The description says it reduces the target's endurance, gives some of it back to my allies, gives some of it back to me, while slowing the target and reducing its damage resistance.  Unfortunately, the CoD entry that covers the pseudopets is gone so I have no way of reading what the actual numbers are.

 

What I can say is, firing it off in combat it has been quite underwhelming.  I've tried it at range, I've tried it in melee, and frankly I cannot discern what it's doing to warrant it being a T9 with a 6-minute recharge timer.  I slotted it with 4x pieces out of EndMod sets (accuracy/endmod/recharge in some combo out of two sets) and if I stand at the feet of whatever I'm pointing at, I get about half a bar of endurance out of it.  If I'm across the street, I barely get a blip out of it, endurance-wise.  If the -Res is significant, it's not showing up in combat logs via drastic increases in damage output, and it's not showing up in noticeably shorter engagements, so...

 

What is the deal with this thing?  Am I supposed to just slot it for a couple of recharges and call it a day?  Drop it entirely as being a situational power that's up, at best, once every 5 mobs or so?

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Indom 50s: Burner Account (Fire/FF Ctrl) | Dr. Unconventional (Ill/Dark Ctrl) | Lawn Boy (Plant/Nat Ctrl) | Magma Lad (Fire/Kin Ctrl) | Metcalf (Grav/Kin Ctrl) | IcyBM (Ice/Trap Ctrl) | Jim With The Weather (Ice/Storm Ctrl) | Dr. Jonas (Mind/Poison Ctrl) | Coldwire (Elec/Cold Ctrl) | Pyrotoxin (Fire/Poison Ctrl) | Barry Mantle-o (Earth/Poison Ctrl) | Voltswagen (Dark/EA Ctrl) | Time Vampire (Grav/Time Ctrl) | Tootboy (Fire/FF Ctrl) | Polarrhoid (Ice/TA Ctrl) | LoLEnEn (En/En Blast) | Draw (Rad/Rad Def) | Destroyo (Bots/Trap MM) | Con Carne (Rad/Bio Brute) | Senor Smoke (Rad/Fire Brute) | Something Else (TW/Bio Scrap) | Thermador (Rad/Fire Brute) | Electrovox (EA/Son Def) Danzigawatt (Demons/EA MM) | Ohm Skillet (Fire/EA Ctrl) | Obscured Face Guy (Dark/Storm Ctrl) | Negative Feedback (EA/Dark Def) | Overspray (Fire/Storm Ctrl) Spacegrass (Fire/Nat Ctrl) Embarrassing Wetness (Water/EA Corr) Weather Permitting (Ill/Storm Ctrl) Herr Fryer (Fire/Traps Ctrl) Rainiac (Grav/Storm Ctrl) | Stokes (Fire/TA Ctrl) | more on the way...

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Posted (edited)

I While powers that yield +end are nice, the real boost is from +recovery which Heat Loss also does and is also on a per target hit basis.  Slotting can vary significantly but I would be looking to ed cap the recharge at minimum to get that cooldown minimized.  It can and should be up far more often than 1 in 5 mobs.  It can and should solve any endurance issues a build might have with room to spare.

 

And yes the -resistance is significant as far as I can recall.

 

Edit2:  It does require a to hit roll so if you slot just recharge make sure your accuracy and to hit are sufficient to hit reliably.  Or oh crud now I'm not sure, drat these old memories...

Edited by Doomguide2005
Clarity
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The +recovery is a huge benefit of the power assuming you are in melee range when you fire it off especially if it is perma or close to perma. It should eliminate any endurance issues for you or your team mates in range when it is used. The -res is also significant (it think it is 24% for a troller) but only lasts 30 secs out of the 90s but it does stack with sleet for a quick -res boost against a hard target. The three key powers of Cold Domination are benumb, sleet and heat loss. On my Cold corrupter I use an End Mod set for it (focus on the set bonuses you need imo).

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Posted (edited)

6 slotted Preemptive Optimization in it.  My Recovery more than doubles and I barely dent my bar.  I do not have it Perma, but it is up every 2 minutes which has worked fine for me.  I did not want to work for Perma-Hasten on my build so I never expected Perma, but it does the job it is intended.

 

Edit: Just to point out, I'd say that Heat Loss is almost tied for MVP power in Cold, Sleet is amazing IMO.  

Edited by Dahle
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Posted (edited)

 

3 hours ago, roleki said:

The description says it reduces the target's endurance, gives some of it back to my allies, gives some of it back to me, while slowing the target and reducing its damage resistance.  Unfortunately, the CoD entry that covers the pseudopets is gone so I have no way of reading what the actual numbers are.

 

What I can say is, firing it off in combat it has been quite underwhelming.  I've tried it at range, I've tried it in melee, and frankly I cannot discern what it's doing to warrant it being a T9 with a 6-minute recharge timer.  I slotted it with 4x pieces out of EndMod sets (accuracy/endmod/recharge in some combo out of two sets) and if I stand at the feet of whatever I'm pointing at, I get about half a bar of endurance out of it.  If I'm across the street, I barely get a blip out of it, endurance-wise.  If the -Res is significant, it's not showing up in combat logs via drastic increases in damage output, and it's not showing up in noticeably shorter engagements, so...

 

What is the deal with this thing?  Am I supposed to just slot it for a couple of recharges and call it a day?  Drop it entirely as being a situational power that's up, at best, once every 5 mobs or so?

 

You can read the actual numbers in-game.  One easy way is go to character creation, go to that power set and click on the upside down ! in the upper right (show detailed power info), then hover over the power you want stats on. 

 

Base it gives 20 endurance, +50% rec for 90 seconds.  That is listed twice so most likely that is the one you get near you and the other is per target friendlies are near when cast.  Also does -33% end to target, slows 24% movement and -240% to recharge! (that is enough to even put a serious dent into an AV's recharge rate) and -24% res all for 30 seconds.

 

It isn't fantastic, but it is a decent power.  There are definitely worse tier 9's out there (sonic, traps, force field all much inferior imo for instance).

Edited by Riverdusk
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Hrm.  It's possible I'm not 'noticing' Heat Loss since I didn't have endurance issues to begin with, on account of slotting the +Recovery uniques in Health and having a +End bump out of Electric?  Maybe Heat Loss frees up those slots?  


Indom 50s: Burner Account (Fire/FF Ctrl) | Dr. Unconventional (Ill/Dark Ctrl) | Lawn Boy (Plant/Nat Ctrl) | Magma Lad (Fire/Kin Ctrl) | Metcalf (Grav/Kin Ctrl) | IcyBM (Ice/Trap Ctrl) | Jim With The Weather (Ice/Storm Ctrl) | Dr. Jonas (Mind/Poison Ctrl) | Coldwire (Elec/Cold Ctrl) | Pyrotoxin (Fire/Poison Ctrl) | Barry Mantle-o (Earth/Poison Ctrl) | Voltswagen (Dark/EA Ctrl) | Time Vampire (Grav/Time Ctrl) | Tootboy (Fire/FF Ctrl) | Polarrhoid (Ice/TA Ctrl) | LoLEnEn (En/En Blast) | Draw (Rad/Rad Def) | Destroyo (Bots/Trap MM) | Con Carne (Rad/Bio Brute) | Senor Smoke (Rad/Fire Brute) | Something Else (TW/Bio Scrap) | Thermador (Rad/Fire Brute) | Electrovox (EA/Son Def) Danzigawatt (Demons/EA MM) | Ohm Skillet (Fire/EA Ctrl) | Obscured Face Guy (Dark/Storm Ctrl) | Negative Feedback (EA/Dark Def) | Overspray (Fire/Storm Ctrl) Spacegrass (Fire/Nat Ctrl) Embarrassing Wetness (Water/EA Corr) Weather Permitting (Ill/Storm Ctrl) Herr Fryer (Fire/Traps Ctrl) Rainiac (Grav/Storm Ctrl) | Stokes (Fire/TA Ctrl) | more on the way...

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3 hours ago, Doomguide2005 said:

I While powers that yield +end are nice, the real boost is from +recovery which Heat Loss also does and is also on a per target hit basis.  Slotting can vary significantly but I would be looking to ed cap the recharge at minimum to get that cooldown minimized.  It can and should be up far more often than 1 in 5 mobs.  It can and should solve any endurance issues a build might have with room to spare.

 

And yes the -resistance is significant as far as I can recall.

 

Edit2:  It does require a to hit roll so if you slot just recharge make sure your accuracy and to hit are sufficient to hit reliably.  Or oh crud now I'm not sure, drat these old memories...

I saw that CoD listed its base accuracy as 1.0, but that data could be super outdated for all I know.  What led me to post in the first place is, for a T9 with a 6-minute cooldown, I was expecting a little more pop than what I saw running around with it.  I scoured the relevant dead threads before creating this one, and people were all over the map on it - some slotting it with a single Acc/EndMod, others going 6-wide, one fellow going 3x Recharge IOs... made me wonder what the people who went full-bore saw that I didn't.  

24 minutes ago, Riverdusk said:

 

 

You can read the actual numbers in-game.  One easy way is go to character creation, go to that power set and click on the upside down ! in the upper right (show detailed power info), then hover over the power you want stats on. 

 

Base it gives 20 endurance, +50% rec for 90 seconds.  That is listed twice so most likely that is the one you get near you and the other is per target friendlies are near when cast.  Also does -33% end to target, slows 24% movement and -240% to recharge! (that is enough to even put a serious dent into an AV's recharge rate) and -24% res all for 30 seconds.

 

It isn't fantastic, but it is a decent power.  There are definitely worse tier 9's out there (sonic, traps, force field all much inferior imo for instance).

It's definitely no Lightning Storm 🙂  I dunno, this was my first /Cold and it was pretty sleepy until Benumb and Sleet showed up.  Benumb is flat-out astounding, though I am a bit surprised its effects aren't distributed throughout the set (the way they are in /TA) instead of all being tucked into one gigantic bomb.  


Indom 50s: Burner Account (Fire/FF Ctrl) | Dr. Unconventional (Ill/Dark Ctrl) | Lawn Boy (Plant/Nat Ctrl) | Magma Lad (Fire/Kin Ctrl) | Metcalf (Grav/Kin Ctrl) | IcyBM (Ice/Trap Ctrl) | Jim With The Weather (Ice/Storm Ctrl) | Dr. Jonas (Mind/Poison Ctrl) | Coldwire (Elec/Cold Ctrl) | Pyrotoxin (Fire/Poison Ctrl) | Barry Mantle-o (Earth/Poison Ctrl) | Voltswagen (Dark/EA Ctrl) | Time Vampire (Grav/Time Ctrl) | Tootboy (Fire/FF Ctrl) | Polarrhoid (Ice/TA Ctrl) | LoLEnEn (En/En Blast) | Draw (Rad/Rad Def) | Destroyo (Bots/Trap MM) | Con Carne (Rad/Bio Brute) | Senor Smoke (Rad/Fire Brute) | Something Else (TW/Bio Scrap) | Thermador (Rad/Fire Brute) | Electrovox (EA/Son Def) Danzigawatt (Demons/EA MM) | Ohm Skillet (Fire/EA Ctrl) | Obscured Face Guy (Dark/Storm Ctrl) | Negative Feedback (EA/Dark Def) | Overspray (Fire/Storm Ctrl) Spacegrass (Fire/Nat Ctrl) Embarrassing Wetness (Water/EA Corr) Weather Permitting (Ill/Storm Ctrl) Herr Fryer (Fire/Traps Ctrl) Rainiac (Grav/Storm Ctrl) | Stokes (Fire/TA Ctrl) | more on the way...

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Yeah, CoD listing it as accuracy 1.0 is pretty typical of a pseudo pet.  Probable auto hits the mob but I'm not sure ... my Cold/Ice had Tactics, PBU and Aim not to mention the acc in the Endmod set and global accuracy I used.  I'd have been pretty much unable to tell without carefully watching the combat logs for that specifically.   He was capable of hitting the To Hit hard cap, something up around +200%.  

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7 hours ago, roleki said:

I scoured the relevant dead threads before creating this one, and people were all over the map on it - some slotting it with a single Acc/EndMod, others going 6-wide, one fellow going 3x Recharge IOs... made me wonder what the people who went full-bore saw that I didn't.  

Before a few months ago, there weren't particularly good slotting options for it. One preemptive optimization was introduced, a 6-slot that gives +3.75% recharge and ranged def is a strong choice.

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If you have no endurance issues then what HL would allow you to do is create endurance issues by dropping slots from health and/or slotting much more aggressively as well as perhaps even playing more aggressively.

 

Usually what happens though (if you have been playing the character through the levels) is you tend to more or less solve your own endurance issues by the time you'd get HL. So the power doesn't seem as significant as one would hope.

 

The auto hit recovery (that centres on you) is 2x as strong as stamina. Each foe hit also gives off a buff that is 2x as strong as stamina. Provided you are close enough to them to receive their buffs the impact on your recovery is quite strong. 

 

 

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Heat loss is huge. When you get it you can respec to your true power. Or you can make sure that AV drops instantly with x2 Sleet, x2 Heat Loss Burnout .

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Posted (edited)

Back before inherent Fitness pool, Cold Domination was considered one of the best Buff/Debuff sets because with enough Recharge you could perma Heat Loss and have endless endurance. Since back then there was also no incarnate system and fewer Recovery procs, Heat Loss was a ticket to amazing builds that could skip Leap/Health/Stamina and replace them with the Fighting pool. All those builds you see now with Tough and Weave? Outside of Fire farmers and, later, Cold Domination builds they were much rarer back in the day because few Controllers could both spare the power picks and have enough endurance to run armor toggles.

 

Things have shifted a lot since back then. It's still a great power, just not "OMGWTAmazing" like it was.

 

Mainly the way it contributes now is it lets you skip slotting Stamina and Health. You can also pick a Alpha and Destiny a bit more freely (I'd pick Destiny Clarion for a lot of builds, for example.)

 

From a pure technical standpoint, I believe the power is most similar to Fulcrum Shift. It summons a pseudo-pet for each enemy hit. These pseudo pets provide the endurance and recovery boost to any teammate in the range. The enemies also get a -Resistance debuff (that stacks with Sleet) and a HUGE -Recharge debuff (-240%). Note the cap on -Recharge is -75%, even against a +4 enemy your debuff is still at around 115%, way over the cap. The extra debuff helps you overcome Resistance. But, sadly, you can't perma it. I can't remember how long it lasts, the numbers 15 or 20 seconds sound familiar tho.

Edited by oedipus_tex
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Posted (edited)

The +recovery is 90 sec, while the debuffs last 30 sec (as noted by Riverdusk up thread).  This jives with what my fading memories recall.  IIRC, my recharge for HL on my Cold/Ice/Power was in the 100 second range if I didn't use Geas of the Kind Ones for its recharge buff.  He was all about the recharge, defenses were minimal in the build.

 

And yes Perma is possible though probably only with outside buffs i.e. around 400% recharge

Edited by Doomguide2005
Correction/clarity about recharge
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I appreciate all the guidance on Heat Loss; I didn't realize it was ever considered to be THAT great of a power to begin with, but I think my further 'misundermation' of it was due to the fact that the first time I ever used it (well, every time I've used it) has been on an Elec/ controller with 5-wide Conductive Aura and Stamina/Health slotted for maximum +Recovery.  

 

That said, I went ahead and 5-slotted it on a respec because I'm a fan of endurance.


Indom 50s: Burner Account (Fire/FF Ctrl) | Dr. Unconventional (Ill/Dark Ctrl) | Lawn Boy (Plant/Nat Ctrl) | Magma Lad (Fire/Kin Ctrl) | Metcalf (Grav/Kin Ctrl) | IcyBM (Ice/Trap Ctrl) | Jim With The Weather (Ice/Storm Ctrl) | Dr. Jonas (Mind/Poison Ctrl) | Coldwire (Elec/Cold Ctrl) | Pyrotoxin (Fire/Poison Ctrl) | Barry Mantle-o (Earth/Poison Ctrl) | Voltswagen (Dark/EA Ctrl) | Time Vampire (Grav/Time Ctrl) | Tootboy (Fire/FF Ctrl) | Polarrhoid (Ice/TA Ctrl) | LoLEnEn (En/En Blast) | Draw (Rad/Rad Def) | Destroyo (Bots/Trap MM) | Con Carne (Rad/Bio Brute) | Senor Smoke (Rad/Fire Brute) | Something Else (TW/Bio Scrap) | Thermador (Rad/Fire Brute) | Electrovox (EA/Son Def) Danzigawatt (Demons/EA MM) | Ohm Skillet (Fire/EA Ctrl) | Obscured Face Guy (Dark/Storm Ctrl) | Negative Feedback (EA/Dark Def) | Overspray (Fire/Storm Ctrl) Spacegrass (Fire/Nat Ctrl) Embarrassing Wetness (Water/EA Corr) Weather Permitting (Ill/Storm Ctrl) Herr Fryer (Fire/Traps Ctrl) Rainiac (Grav/Storm Ctrl) | Stokes (Fire/TA Ctrl) | more on the way...

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All the talk of Heat Loss has me now mulling over making a build that intentionally being as End Heavy as I can make it.  Like 9-10 toggles with -Zero- end redux in them.  And an end heavy rotation.  Just to make it so that investing in Stamina and Health will also be needed.... 

🙂 Thanks!

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1 hour ago, Dahle said:

All the talk of Heat Loss has me now mulling over making a build that intentionally being as End Heavy as I can make it.  Like 9-10 toggles with -Zero- end redux in them.  And an end heavy rotation.  Just to make it so that investing in Stamina and Health will also be needed.... 

🙂 Thanks!

Pretty much. Run them toggles, skip slotting end reduction, use endurance intensive aoes against a single target,  put procs where procs can go, go willy-nilly on recharge slotting with no concern for endurance burn.

HL has your back. 

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Posted (edited)

I actually have a 9 year old video of how Heat Loss used to work. This is back from when I used to run a Mind/Cold Controller. With a 1 billion influence (in those days dollars, the market was much pricier) I was able to solo at... x8+0 without bosses! And I was so proud of myself. 🙂

 

 


Heat Loss is used at around the 12 second mark. You'll see my blue bar spike when it goes off. 

 

I believe this video pre-dates incarnates by a few months to a year. You can see the toggles I'm running--very rare on a Controller at the time. You may also notice I would also leave Super Speed on at all times. Such is the benefit of a bottomless endurance power.

I mained Mind/Cold for a while back then because I am a masochist. If any developers want to talk to me about how Mind should be fixed, watch the part in the video where I use a Power Boost + Total  Domination combo to get Containment. 

Heat Loss, tho, was great then and is still very good now. 

Edited by oedipus_tex
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