Epic/Patron pools

[senseichen]

I can't find a thread dedicated to discussing Tanker Epic or Patron pools.  What are your favorites?  Are there hidden gems in there?

 

None of the epic pools look that interesting/fun.  I guess a long CD Conserve Power and half a Stamina are the best options?

 

The Patron pools look better, the AoE immobilizes look promising, and maybe the -Res from Leviathan or -ACC from Soul Mastery?

 

I'm Shield/Stone if that changes any recommendations.

[tellania]

My preference is soul mastery (patron pool).   It has -damage and -to hit (darkest night).   Gloom is great damage and rarely resisted damage type.

 

My old fire/ice tank took ice APP to stack holds (can hold a boss).

 

Leviathan patron is good for the -res in arctic breath.

Earth mastery opens lots of IO/proc options.

 

For extra tank survivability, I take soul mastery.   For extra damage I take either fire (fireball, I prefer range aoe's to cones) or leviathan (-res and pet, depending how many powers/slot I have available).

 

I prefer ice for control (hold does more damage than fire app hold power).

 

For looking awesome, I take energy mastery (laser beam eyes for da win!).     I also take this for pre-uber builds, for extra stamina recovery.

In fact, i've known to use a second build on my main (invul/ss), just to add LBE.

 

 

 

[senseichen]

Thanks.  I ended up respeccing through a bunch of them for my last few levels.  I basically gave up on the APP pets after a few rounds. 😞

 

Stone shouldn't be good, but I'm a sucker for Sleeps and feeling like a controller.  A 30' radius sleep is fun for ranged stragglers while you pummel everything in 10'.  I'm trying Stalagmites with all the procs, but it still doesn't really feel like a great AoE.  I wanted to like Quicksand, but I think I've going to favor the Hold for stragglers.  I really wish all the -DEF powers too Defense Debuff IOs.

 

Soul is solid.  I gave up on the AE Immob, but Darkest Night and Obliterate are both great.

 

I should re-try Leviathan.  I really didn't like the cone Immob, but I think I've mostly given up on any of the AE immobs being satisfying.  If I can get a great -Res power (base and Proc) it might be worth it.

 

Mu looked good, but mostly because I wanted an AoE Immob.  It's weird, but I think I didn't like it because the Immob made a noise.  But without the Immob, Soul is superior.

 

Mace worked well, but the animation felt too slow.  With no damage on Web grenades, but the same animation/recharge as the other Immobs, it felt weak there.  I suppose if I needed To Hit?

 

I still need to try Energy.  I doubt I'll take LBE, but I'm still iffy on End sometimes, so I might as well be complete.  Maybe Energy Torrent for another FF procc-er will be good.

 

I couldn't bring myself to try Ice or Fire.  I don't really need to go out of my way for another hold (although if I'm forced to take one in Earth Mastery, eh?)

[tellania]

when you say 'respec', you mean actual respec's on live servers?

If so, I HIGHLY recommend finding out the beta server and commands and fully IO your powers as well (save on buying proc's you may not want in another build).

 

laser beam eyes takes the -def procs (-res, and dark energy proc) (dont forget the accurate -def proc's as well).  Energy torrent is prime for the +rech proc (I have footstomp, and I dont see it going off nearly as often as energy torrent).

 

Soul is my primary favorite, leviathan for damage builds (my 50's have 2 builds, damage orientated and defense orientated) with the pet, but the MU APP has interesting potential with the +heal endurance proc (plus +endurance).   the MU APP has sufficient recharge times to make those proc's rather predicable.   I've been playing with MU for my SR/spines tank, as she has no native heal (electric fences, ball lighting, static discharge offer a good chance at the 5% proc).   I'm not sure if it stacks well in an aoe type power (I heard only 1 can go off at the same time, but lighting jumps, and may offer additional heals).

 

I like fireball over a the cones, but fireball doesn't have sufficient damage over 2 cones.

 

[Mr Pierce]

I'd like to second Soul Mastery. I can't express enough how incredibly powerful Darkest Night is when running a traditional tank. You won't use it every mob, but anytime there is an Elite Boss or AV, you are giving the team insane survivability!

[Omega-202]

15 hours ago, Mr Pierce said:

I'd like to second Soul Mastery. I can't express enough how incredibly powerful Darkest Night is when running a traditional tank. You won't use it every mob, but anytime there is an Elite Boss or AV, you are giving the team insane survivability!

I think you are severely overestimating the effects of Darkest Night on Tanks in general and specifically in AV fights.  

 

First off, due to their poor debuff modifiers, Tanks only do 10% base tohit debuff and 28% unenhanceable damage debuff.  At +3 (standard endgame lvl 54s where that survivability would matter most), the debuff is already reduced to 65% effectiveness due to the purple patch.  

 

Then, you have to account for the fact that AV's have very strong debuff resistance.  Most have 50%-85%.  So now between purple patch and AV resistance, your base to hit debuff is only 3.2-4.4% and your damage debuff is 9-12%. 

 

Now you might say "that's still pretty good", but actually its even worse.  Bopper recently had a really good thread that explained how damage resistance and damage debuffs interact. 

 

In short, damage resistance stats add and subtract from a target's damage debuffs.  A target that is very resistant to smashing damage is also very resistant to debuffs to their own smashing damage.  In practice, this means that Mother Mayhem's 50% damage resistance to Psi damage also means that debuffs to her own psi attacks are resisted by an additional 50%.    That's taking you damage debuffs even lower, to around 6% on AVs that resist their main offensive attack type (which is most AVs).  It's even worse on tanky AVs like Marauder, who's like 75% resistant to smashing damage.  

 

6% damage debuff isn't nothing, but it's also not all that much in the grand scheme.  And the 3-4% to hit debuff isnt nothing, but it's also about the same effect you'd get from Manuevers and Manuevers doesn't need a target or need to burn animation time to use.

 

That's not to say Darkest Night isn't useful.  I think it has uses as a decent aggro control power because your anchor is going to pull aggro to you pretty strongly.  But as an AV debuff, it's not actually that good.

Edited August 18, 2020 by Omega-202

[Bopper]

42 minutes ago, Omega-202 said:

First off, due to their poor debuff modifiers, Tanks only do 10% base tohit debuff and 28% unenhanceable damage debuff. 

Good breakdown. One thing that gets missed though, Tankers recently were given a buff (Page 4?) that enhances their AT modifiers to Controller levels. So the base numbers are actually 15% ToHit Debuff and 30% Damage Debuff.

[Omega-202]

3 minutes ago, Bopper said:

Good breakdown. One thing that gets missed though, Tankers recently were given a buff (Page 4?) that enhances their AT modifiers to Controller levels. So the base numbers are actually 15% ToHit Debuff and 30% Damage Debuff.

Thanks!  Also, holy Tanker buffs.  I knew that they upped the damage scale, the AoE spread, etc., but I don't quite get why Tanks also needed their debuff scale boosted.  If anyone needs something like that, its Sentinels, Dominators and Khelds.  

[Bopper]

30 minutes ago, Omega-202 said:

Thanks!  Also, holy Tanker buffs.  I knew that they upped the damage scale, the AoE spread, etc., but I don't quite get why Tanks also needed their debuff scale boosted.  If anyone needs something like that, its Sentinels, Dominators and Khelds.  

I'm sure other sets will get their pass. As for scales, not sure. I assume the buff and debuff scale are the same, but i haven't really looked at it. I assume the scale is simply called ToHit, and if you have a + scalar, you do a buff, and a - scalar, you do a debuff. So in the case of a tank, a buff to their buffs also results in a buff to their debuffs.

 

FWIW, I also always go Soul Mastery for Darkest Night. It's just so strong. AVs on average only have about 10-15% resistance, sure some examples have extreme amounts but most are relatively low. So the damage debuff is typically strong against an AV. But where I really find it useful is in a mob of debuffers. There is one mission I play that has enemies with crazy amounts of defense and regeneration debuffs (they literally floor me), but i manage fine with my capped resistance and having the layer of damage debuff on top of it.Taking 10% damage is nice... but 7-8% damage is nicer. 

[Omega-202]

10 minutes ago, Bopper said:

I'm sure other sets will get their pass. As for scales, not sure. I assume the buff and debuff scale are the same, but i haven't really looked at it. I assume the scale is simply called ToHit, and if you have a + scalar, you do a buff, and a - scalar, you do a debuff. So in the case of a tank, a buff to their buffs also results in a buff to their debuffs.

 

FWIW, I also always go Soul Mastery for Darkest Night. It's just so strong. AVs on average only have about 10-15% resistance, sure some examples have extreme amounts but most are relatively low. So the damage debuff is typically strong against an AV. But where I really find it useful is in a mob of debuffers. There is one mission I play that has enemies with crazy amounts of defense and regeneration debuffs (they literally floor me), but i manage fine with my capped resistance and having the layer of damage debuff on top of it.Taking 10% damage is nice... but 7-8% damage is nicer. 

I can see the uses against regular mobs, but the animation time is what kills it for me when applying it to trash.  I got to the point where even my Corruptor specced out of it because things moved too quickly for it to usually matter.  I guess if you're doing challenge mode AE content solo, then it makes sense.

 

And regarding AV resists, I need to do some research.  I could have sworn that most packed at least one 50% resist, usually to their offensive damage type, but that might just be a Praetorian AV thing.  

 

EDIT:  Seems the 50% resist to their own offense is mostly a Praetorian AV thing.  Other AVs are a mixed bag.  Some have solid resists. others are like Bopper said, in the 10-20%ish range.

Edited August 18, 2020 by Omega-202

[ironjoe]

I tend to go Energy Mastery for Focused Accuracy (Gaussians BU Proc) and Physical Perfection. Both powers give decent returns for little slot placement that I can use elsewhere. On my Electric Tank I go Mu Mastery because end is already solved early there and more thematic ranged damage is nice with the addition of the immob. Soul also has appeal after the tanker buffs mentioned above. 

[Vanden]

On 8/18/2020 at 10:11 AM, Omega-202 said:

That's not to say Darkest Night isn't useful.  I think it has uses as a decent aggro control power because your anchor is going to pull aggro to you pretty strongly.

This might be an understatement. According to the patch notes, "every AoE power that takes endurance cost enhancements will taunt the enemies it hit." That means Darkest Night should be straight-up a ranged taunt aura for Tankers.