What Would You Change About Dominators?

[kiramon]

7 hours ago, Ukase said:

Truth be told, I made my mind/psi after seeing you literally dominate in MoTPN. In fairness to the AT and the powersets, there are a number of non-dom AT's and powersets I've tried that had certain nuances that discourage my forward progress. 

Like in Super Reflexes, the status protection for my stalker was a click, not a toggle. Fine if you struggle with endurance, but with a perf shifter +end, Panacea +hp/recovery, Numina +hp/recovery, Miracle +end ...not to mention ageless and agility...was never a problem and would never be a problem. 
In Shield Defense, same thing with Active Defense.  Certainly a minor issue, but they tend to point me towards paths where I'm not so click happy. 

Dual Swords with that silly set of combo attacks - which would make sense if they did more damage and the next attack was always recharged and ready to go..

And Bio armor with having (or getting) to choose which armor to go with...some think that's fantastic..I don't want to think about that. I just want to mash a toggle and forget about it. Probably why I like invuln a bit more than rad armor and Will power. 

But these comments are a bit off-topic, just wanted to illustrate that it's not only the Dom AT and mind/psi that I found less than ideal for my style of play. 

To be fair, they overcompensated on End recovery due to the base toggles defensive sets use - which in a Performance Shifter world results in them having the best endurance management options in the entire game... which leads ATs like Dom and Corruptors in the hole >: (  Which just happen to also be two of my favorite ATs... with MMs being in there due to a stupid penalty that has no reason to exist 😛

 

 

[oedipus_tex]

The reason Mind/Psi was popular for a while is that prior to incarnates it was one of the few combos that could solo the Lord Recluse SF. I forget the specifics, but I think it involved using Mass Hypnosis in combo with Confuse. The trick was to confuse the heroes into attacking each other while you stand around and wait. Then for the final hero remaining you'd perma confuse them while sapping their regen with Drain Psyche. For a while whenever anyone said "Buff Mind Control" the reply was "But Mind can solo the LRSF!" 

 

This was also before Dark Control existed, so at the time Mind was the only set with a Mag 6 (from Domination) Confuse that didn't alert enemies.

[macskull]

What would I change about Dominators? Bring back pre-I15 Psi Assault. I miss old PSW.

[Marshal_General]

Ok, I didn't read everything, but what is it about redside that gives you a free refill of dom? What is this frenzy thing?

[Nyghtmaire]

16 minutes ago, Marshal_General said:

Ok, I didn't read everything, but what is it about redside that gives you a free refill of dom? What is this frenzy thing?

It’s the alignment power for being a villain after switching sides or reaffirming your alignment in morality missions.

 

https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Alignment_Powers#Frenzy

 

[kiramon]

17 minutes ago, Marshal_General said:

Ok, I didn't read everything, but what is it about redside that gives you a free refill of dom? What is this frenzy thing?

When you switch sides (which you can do freely now with Null) you get a Temporary power called a Countdown. When you switch to red, you'll get a Countdown to Frenzy. Once that countdown ends, you get a perma-power while on that side. For doms, that power happens to do a full refill of the Dom bar.

 

You have to play Red and stay Red to keep the power. 

[oedipus_tex]

If changes to the archetype aren't possible, I'd like a look at this classes ATOs. IMO they miss the mark. Dominators are a Control/Assault hybrid with a powerset devoted to attacks, but their ATOs can only be slotted in Control powers. One or both of the ATOs would have been more useful if they could be slotted in attacks and if they provided some defensive value. The Defender ATO on Dominators would be amazing even if ported directly with no changes. Did you know Defenders can get +30 Recharge from their ATOs?

 

 

It might feel like I'm slamming this archetype, which is not what I intend to do. I think there's potential for a great AT. But I also don't feel like it's there yet. The performance of a few top sets doesn't cover for the archetype as a whole. As a minimum, I would settle for:

• Fixes to powers that don't Dominate but should
• Eliminating most DoTs in favor of one-hit powers that don't ruin Sleep
• Normalizing damage and animation times of the Holds and Immobilizes
• Deciding what to do with blast powers in Control sets (especially Propel)
• A break somewhere with healing, defense, resistance or mezz protection. At a minimum, armor provided in the APPs should be as strong as what Controllers or Corruptors get.

 

This would hopefully be in addition to general changes to the powersets. Moving Terrify, Wormhole and Synaptic Overload from level 26 to level 8, 12, or 18 so all sets have a medium cooldown control by level 20 for example.

Edited August 13, 2020 by oedipus_tex

[Frosticus]

8 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

If changes to the archetype aren't possible, I'd like a look at this classes ATOs. IMO they miss the mark. Dominators are a Control/Assault hybrid with a powerset devoted to attacks, but their ATOs can only be slotted in Control powers. One or both of the ATOs would have been more useful if they could be slotted in attacks and if they provided some defensive value. The Defender ATO on Dominators would be amazing even if ported directly with no changes. Did you know Defenders can get +30 Recharge from their ATOs?

Defender ATOs are really good.

Strong bonuses and the procs are a massive boon to survival. 

 

On my poison, traps, and cold defenders (all of which have limited to no self healing ability) the procs provide a huge amount of survivability when you play aggressively.

[oedipus_tex]

3 hours ago, Frosticus said:

Defender ATOs are really good.

Strong bonuses and the procs are a massive boon to survival. 

 

On my poison, traps, and cold defenders (all of which have limited to no self healing ability) the procs provide a huge amount of survivability when you play aggressively.

 

 

Yeah it makes me very jealous. Ascendancy of the Dominator isn't terrible, it gets you +10 Recharge and +5 Ranged Defense for 6 slots.

 

The other set though, Dominator's Grasp. We might as well use it to fill potholes haha. The only decent bonuses are +6% S/L resist at 4 slots and +2.5% Ranged defense for 6 slots. Absolutely NOT worth 6 slots when you can get better Ranged defense from Thunderstrike for 1/20th the price. It does provide +5 En/Neg Defense which is not useful on 99% of Dominator builds.

 

The Defender ATOs are super powerful because one of them has a +10 Recharge at the 3 slot mark, so you can split it up into 2 separate powers for a total of +30 recharge. Doms (and Controllers) can get a max of +10 Recharge.

 

Also, Ranged Defense. Not useless on a Dom, but it's very Controller-y. I think the OG developers didn't really understand what Dominators need.

 

 

Looking at the procs in the other ATs kinda fills me with jealousy to be honest. 😄Dominators make out slightly better than Controllers because their Ascendancy set provides a global +Damage buff, but that's not saying much. It's still contingent on being able to put this in a power you use often enough to get the bonus. I can do that with Electric, Mind, Dark. It's far harder to do it with sets like Gravity or Ice that have only 2 or 3 total "control" powers you can put the set in. All other ATs other than Dominator and Controller (and Mastermind) put their ATOs in their attacks. With Controller I can see why it has to be that way, because their secondaries are all over the map. But Dominators are just as much, or more so, a damage archetype as Defenders. 

Edited August 14, 2020 by oedipus_tex

[Nyghtmaire]

Similar to the Defender set (but scarily  more attractive), Mastermind’s Superior Mark of Ascendancy gives a 10% recharge bonus at 2 slots.
 

2 slots!!

That model would provide much more flexibility towards slotting a dominator (3 powers, 3 additional slots beyond base). More freedom for procs in powers, more reason to take lesser used control powers, if even to mule the IOs, and more opportunity to experiment with accentuating secondary effects of powers. Basically, anything that reduces the recharge-focused stranglehold of building a dominator is a positive. 

[Nyghtmaire]

22 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

• Fixes to powers that don't Dominate but should
• Eliminating most DoTs in favor of one-hit powers that don't ruin Sleep
• Normalizing damage and animation times of the Holds and Immobilizes
• Deciding what to do with blast powers in Control sets (especially Propel)
• A break somewhere with healing, defense, resistance or mezz protection. At a minimum, armor provided in the APPs should be as strong as what Controllers or Corruptors get.

Or for dominator sleeps, flagging a percentage of the duration at the beginning not to break sleep on damage. Honestly, I’d be comfortable with that change across ATs. 

[oedipus_tex]

7 hours ago, Nyghtmaire said:

Or for dominator sleeps, flagging a percentage of the duration at the beginning not to break sleep on damage. Honestly, I’d be comfortable with that change across ATs. 

 

 

There are a small handful of powers that are coded to only damage a mob it is not Sleeping. That's what I think should be done to Dominator auras in Earth and Icy Assault. Unless it's one of those that has the flag already. I know it was added somewhere, just can't remember which set.

 

There were a few cool things done to Blaster powers that I think should roll over to Doms/Controllers. Blazing Aura for example is a damage toggle (and self heal/recovery) that does not detoggle on mezz. I think that is how all self-cast toggles like Arctic Air should work. The hoops you have to jump through to get Arctic Air to do its job currently are over the top in my opinion. I love the idea of that power and I really want to see it come into its own, but it's a long way from that currently.

[oedipus_tex]

So I'm playing my first Stalker (and he's turned out great.) He was a reconcept roll of an Ice/Rad Dominator build I tried because someone asked if that was a bad combo and I told them it was, but I am obstinate and I rolled it anyway and, yes, it was bad.

 

Anyway I'm working in Mids and I see I can do this:

 

 

 

In case you're wondering, that's a +5% Smashing/Lethal Defense bonus for 3 slots. 😮 So you can split the set between two powers for +10% S/L Defense from 6 slots (and +30% Accuracy).

 

Here's what the very poor Superior Dominating Grasp set looks like:

 

 

 

If we could lower that HP bonus and move it to Tier 2, do you think we could we get a good splittable bonus here like most other ATs get? Either +10 Recharge or +S/L Defense or +Melee Defense?

Overall I think Dominators need to be reconceptualized a bit. They are caught in a bit of a perpetual loop. Not being given decent armor, and then not getting armor from set bonuses on account of them not getting decent armor and therefor no one thinking of them as needing armor even though it's probably near the top of things they need.

Edited August 15, 2020 by oedipus_tex

[CzarBal]

On 7/28/2020 at 4:10 AM, oedipus_tex said:

 

 

• 5. Fix the tier 1 Assault power. The Tier 1 attack powers are almost universally terrible. Most of the time I remove them from my bar as soon as possible. These powers feel like they should have some special utility. A minor vampiric heal, endurance recovery, something. An option would be for them to strip mezz resistance from a target so that mezzes last longer.  

 

Throw a Devastation: Chance to Hold and use it to bounce between spamming your hold. 

[Marshal_General]

I am sure it has been mentioned, but I would change the total loss of the domination bar on defeat.

Either remove the loss totally or make it only a half loss.

Edited August 25, 2020 by Marshal_General

[Mezmera]

4 hours ago, Marshal_General said:

I am sure it has been mentioned, but I would change the total loss of the domination bar on defeat.

Either remove the loss totally or make it only a half loss.

Yes!  No repercussions for death!  Cancel death. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Or learn not to die.....?

Edited August 25, 2020 by Mezmera

[Marshal_General]

4 hours ago, Mezmera said:

Yes!  No repercussions for death!  Cancel death. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Or learn not to die.....?

No other AT losses a big mechanic of their AT by dying. The closest is the brute. But all that gives is some extra damage compared to the loss of extra control and status protection that doms lose not to mention that fury builds quicker than domination.

Edited August 25, 2020 by Marshal_General

[Mezmera]

49 minutes ago, Marshal_General said:

No other AT losses a big mechanic of their AT by dying. The closest is the brute. But all that gives is some extra damage compared to the loss of extra control and status protection that doms lose not to mention that fury builds quicker than domination.

Again, you identified a major drawback to the archetype in that it doesn't behoove you to die.  So apply what you've learned in the real world about not wanting to die and then take the fantasy elements of this game into account in that you have much more powers in this format to allow you to avoid your demise.  

[oedipus_tex]

13 hours ago, Mezmera said:

Again, you identified a major drawback to the archetype in that it doesn't behoove you to die.  So apply what you've learned in the real world about not wanting to die and then take the fantasy elements of this game into account in that you have much more powers in this format to allow you to avoid your demise.  

 

I hear your argument that death is an important game mechanic, but I think we need to remember why death came up in the first place;

 

The main way to "not die" is not to engage enemies with the short range attacks available to this archetype. At the end of the day, the efficacy of Dominators is easy to determine. Can an archetype with no armor survive at close range on controls alone? The answer is "Kind of." It works in sandbox content. In harder content it's a death sentence and that's where the archetype doesn't come together. 

 

The best way to "not die" versus an AV is not to engage them because your controls just don't work. So right away we've called into question an archetype where its damage comes from short range attacks but no armor. If I didn't have so much to lose by dying it may not matter as much. But a Dominator has the most to lose out of the whole team. Why should it work that way when the point of the Assault set is to get in an enemy's face? Or is the intent that only high ranged DPA sets contribute in the most important fights while melee sets hang back in order to "not die"?

 

I realize there's a balancing act to be had here. I don't think  anyone is expecting Sentinel level armor. However, the archetype currently has one of the weakest APP armors and has no native defense or resist powers in any of its primary or secondary sets. Even just having some kind of base to work with would be a start. As well as mezz protection decoupled from Domination so the stakes of taking risks aren't so high.

Edited August 26, 2020 by oedipus_tex

[Mezmera]

6 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

 

I realize there's a balancing act to be had here. I don't think  anyone is expecting Sentinel level armor. However, the archetype currently has one of the weakest APP armors and has no native defense or resist powers in any of its primary or secondary sets. Even just having some kind of base to work with would be a start. As well as mezz protection decoupled from Domination so the stakes of taking risks aren't so high.

Dominators have arguably THE best APP armors among all the ATs.  The base values for defenses and resists on doms skews higher as opposed to all the other squishies but maybe for defenders.  

 

You dabble here and there in what Primaries and Secondaries you like and then let the pools build you up sturdy.  There's Tough/Weave, Maneuvers/Vengeance, Stealth, Combat Jumping, Hover, Rune of Protection and Unleash Potential then take one of the Epic armors, oh and get your accolades, especially the hp ones and Demonic.  Then there's the incarnate powers like Barrier and the melee hybrid.  Then after you achieved sufficient recharge bonuses on top of all that you aim to build in those bonuses like defense, resists and hp.

 

Be aggressive with your controls basically projecting your defenses outwards and then aim to build your defenses strong through the pools so you have them to lean on should your controls fail you particularly when you're fighting something like an AV.  

Edited August 26, 2020 by Mezmera

[oedipus_tex]

2 minutes ago, Mezmera said:

Dominators have arguably THE best APP armors among all the ATs.  The base values for defenses and resists on doms skews higher as opposed to all the other squishies but maybe for defenders.  

 

I just took a look to spot check myself. Dominator APP armors are better than Blasters, Corruptor, and Masterminds, that is true. They are worse than Controller and Defender. (Not included in this assessment are Stalkers, Scrappers, Brutes, Sentinels or Tankers, who obviously have better armor, as they should.) 

 

I admit I was surprised Corruptors have worse APP armors. I had thought they had the same values as Controllers, but was wrong. I think I never noticed because they are buoyed by their support sets.

 

Worth noting that of these ATs, only Doms and Blasters don't get a support set. Against an AV, where control powers don't work, they are positioned worst. 

 

I still think there is a very good case for Dominator APPs are to at least match Controllers.

 

 

Screenshots of the various APP armors below.

 

Controller (better than Dom)

 

Dominator (baseline)

 

 

Corruptor (worse than Dom)

 

 

[Mezmera]

I wasn't too sure about Controllers but I knew Defenders had probably the best statistical values for things since they're not intended to be offensive dps, which is kind of true for Controllers too hence why their values are higher also.  It's kind of tough comparing doms to controllers, I see them more in terms of cousins of blasters because as you say neither have a support set and rely on their dps to win the day, where a blaster has the nuke to neutralize the enemies the dom has their aoe controls.  

 

I'd like to see what values Controllers and Defenders can pull out of the new Origin Pool shields.  I think the values you can pull out of Rune of Protection and Unleash Potential were intentionally left higher for doms to compensate for some of the grievances doms have.  I know for a fact that Unleash Potential has better values with the same slotting on my dom compared to my blaster and corruptor.  

 

As far as diversity in APP powers there's just so much better options in Dominator Epic pools compared to that of Blasters and Corruptors.  The dom patron pools have the best of the pets which heck even one of them is a pocket healer where you can also in that same pool get a good resist shield AND a godmode resistance power and even an endurance optimization power I believe.  When I level up a dom I look forward to getting to choose from the Epic pools, when I'm making a blaster or corruptor there's not much excitement since it feels like there's a limited amount of good powers in those pools.  

 

I'm on the fence about evening out the values to a Controller.  It'd depend on the amount of damage a Controller can pump out compared to the dom, which I don't think they can match so it feels like comparing apples to oranges.  

[VV]

I'm probably the only one that would say I would love to see the serious modification of Domination. I am sure it is just me, but I'm not a fan of chasing gimmicks. Same with Brutes, I don't like chasing Fury. And certain powersets that build different stacks of different stuff. Just not a fan. There's already enough clickies to keep track of in this game.  I tend to agree with Tex, above. Or make it like "impact" only in reverse. When you mezz opponents, it builds your own mezz resistance.

[oedipus_tex]

The place you'll really notice the gap is if you try to create two versions of the same character on a Controller vs a Dominator. Controllers have a better Defense modifier, so powers like Maneuvers, Combat Jumping, Weave etc make it easier to reach defense benchmarks. Since you also don't get any +Defense in your primary or secondary, just the APP Armor or (if you pick Psi) Link Minds, its a balancing act. 

 

Dominator is just in a weird place. They are a melee archetype that can't melee with the main targets where that damage is really needed. I don't know that we can or should completely fix that, but it feels to me like they need a better base foundation to build from.

Edited August 27, 2020 by oedipus_tex

[Coyote]

I've soloed AVs and GMs with my Dominators. I think that the blanket statement that they are a melee archetype is wrong (nobody considers Blasters a melee archetype, yet some of their hardest hitting attacks are melee), and that they can't melee with the main targets follows from that.

 

This may be more of a problem, issue, or discussion that is relevant to particular builds. I'm not sure that actually counts, as other ATs also have builds that have problems with AVs... but if we are going to say that the AT has a problem because it gets squished too often against AVs, maybe it's more of a question of saying WHICH combinations have problems with AVs.

 

I agree that there is a bit of a general argument that any AT that uses melee attacks quite a bit SHOULD have some defenses, even if they only come in the form of a HP boost. And therefore, that Doms should get some boost in base non-active survivability, as Blasters did twice (HP increase, Sustain powers). But I think that there is some difference between agreeing that they are slightly below where they should be defensively, versus saying that they're a melee AT that can't survive in melee.