Change the Self-Rez powers in powersets to Auto cheat deaths.

[HelenCarnate]

5 hours ago, Ralathar44 said:

Nope, I like how they currently function and when used correctly they work well.  Depending on the set you rez in teh middle of the mob or you understand that when things go bad you need to get a touch of distance before you go down.  In the hands of a player that understands the limits of their character and how their powers work they're pretty effective.  Kinda like when I suicidal jumped into death yesterday to howling twilight the tank that went down.  I understood I would die, but I also understood that if I did not do this the team would wipe and that the tank could handled the weakened mob once they got back up.

Gotta know how to properly use the cards in your hand.   Self Rezs are powerful cards in many situations and QOL cards in others.  Changing them to your suggestion just makes them additional mitigation and robs most of the nuance from them.  Qualifies as power creep too since it would make them stronger overall.  Even if everything else worked the same not dropping aggro, not getting debt, becoming invulnerable, and not losing that precious 2-3 seconds when you are downed and then self rez and retoggle is not an insignificant buff to alot of sets that do not need it.

So even though it would not affect you in any way, you are against the proposed change because everyone else should have to play the same way you do?  Am I following that correctly?  Also who can rez and retoggle in 2-3 seconds?  Most of my characters have 6 or more toggles. Tough, Weave, 2 or more leadership, Combat Jumping and that is before any toggles from the AT.  

Edited August 11, 2020 by HelenCarnate

[Ralathar44]

22 minutes ago, HelenCarnate said:

So even though it would not affect you in any way, you are against the proposed change because everyone else should have to play the same way you do?  Am I following that correctly?  Also who can rez and retoggle in 2-3 seconds?  Most of my characters have 6 or more toggles. Tough, Weave, 2 or more leadership, Combat Jumping and that is before any toggles from the AT.  

How would it not affect me in any way exactly?  I have 3 pages of characters and many of them use self rez.  Many of them tanks too so the toggling all the things back on is definitely something I face if I faceplant.  You can get your key toggles up very quickly.  You don't need assault and tactics up ASAP after hitting floor, you need to get back up and stay alive so you're talking like 2-4 armor toggles and then tough/weave/combat jumping really.  And if you need more than that after going down AND you already used all your panic buttons and inspirations then that's the penalty of riding the bleeding edge of what you can handle.  Suck it up and go to the hospital.  Self rez doesn't mean never hospital trip ever.  Not everything is 100% viable with no concessions in all situations, if it was it'd be broken AF.  Everything has limits.  You chose the difficulty, you chose the build, deal with it.  I do :).

As a side note Leadership is prolly too good and that's why you see it on almost every single character at high level.  Some other pool powers need a boost and leadership prolly needs to stop being a no brainer power selection for 80%+ of characters.  That being said i expect people to fight to keep it the same way they fight to keep the broken mess that is Hasten.

Edited August 11, 2020 by Ralathar44

[HelenCarnate]

1 minute ago, Ralathar44 said:

How would it not affect me in any way exactly?  I have 3 pages of characters and many of them use self rez.  Many of them tanks too so the toggling all the things back on is definitely something I face if I faceplant.  You can get your key toggles up very quickly.  You don't need assault and tactics up ASAP after hitting floor, you need to get back up and stay alive so you're talking like 2-4 armor toggles and then tough/weave/combat jumping really.  And if you need more than that after going down AND you already used all your panic buttons and inspirations then that's the penalty of riding the bleeding edge of what you can handle.  Suck it up and go to the hospital.  Self rez doesn't mean never hospital trip ever.  Not everything is 100% viable with no concessions in all situations, if it was it'd be broken AF.  Everything has limits.  You chose the difficulty, you chose the build, deal with it.  I do :).

As a side note Leadership is prolly too good and that's why you see it on almost every single character at high level.  Some other pool powers need a boost and leadership prolly needs to stop being a no brainer power selection for 80%+ of characters.

As explained earlier in the thread it could be a toggle or stance.  If you have it on and you get taken to 0 HP, instead of dying, you get dropped to 1 and instead of the full rez effect, you have a lesser version cast on you.  If you have it off it does nothing.  Turn it on when you are dead and you get the full effect.  In other words, no change to you.  Those that like the option would take it.  Those that don't would just play like they normally play.  

[Ralathar44]

20 minutes ago, HelenCarnate said:

As explained earlier in the thread it could be a toggle or stance.  If you have it on and you get taken to 0 HP, instead of dying, you get dropped to 1 and instead of the full rez effect, you have a lesser version cast on you.  If you have it off it does nothing.  Turn it on when you are dead and you get the full effect.  In other words, no change to you.  Those that like the option would take it.  Those that don't would just play like they normally play.  

That's not the same as not affecting me.  The option now exists and thus if the option is more effective (which it very much is as explained) I will be expected to use it and so I will end up using it for the sake of the team.  Not going down at all is way better than going down, losing aggro, 2 people getting downed, and then me coming back.  This is literally just blatant power creep.  It'd be like asking for all status protection in armor sets to be either toggled or clicky depending on what the player chose.  90% of people are going to choose toggle because it's just better unless nerfed so much as to not be useful.

It's like changing a knife fight to a gun fight and then telling someone it doesn't affect them because they can still choose to use a knife lol.


No change happens in a vacuum, when you change the situation and you change the options it affects everyone.  There is no "it doesn't affect you", because design/balance is an entire ecosystem.  That's game balance/design 101.  If, say, all clicky mez protection got a 20% acc/dmg buff built into it that would change the meta and affects everyone who runs a set who do not have clicky protection by making them worse by comparison, especially toggled protection.

Edited August 11, 2020 by Ralathar44

[HelenCarnate]

1 minute ago, Ralathar44 said:

That's not the same as not affecting me.  The option now exists and thus if the option is more effective (which it very much is as explained) I will be expected to use it and so I will end up using it for the sake of the team.  Not going down at all is way better than going down, losing aggro, 2 people getting downed, and then me coming back.  This is literally just blatant power creep.  It'd be like asking for all status protection in armor sets to be either toggled or clicky depending on what the player chose.  90% of people are going to choose toggle because it's just better unless nerfed so much as to not be useful.

It's like changing a knife fight to a gun fight and then telling someone it doesn't affect them because they can still choose to use a knife lol.


No change happens in a vacum, when you change the situation and you change the options it affects everyone.  There is no "it doesn't affect you", because design/balance is an entire ecosystem.  That's game balance/design 101.  If, say, all clicky mez protection got a 20% acc/dmg buff built into it that would change the meta and affects everyone who runs a set who has toggled protection by making them worse by comparison.

I jump on random pugs all the time.  Since the game has come back I have literally never had anyone tell me how to use my powers or when (outside of 1 DFB where a melee got mad because I dared to use AoE imob before everything was grouped up so he had to move a little).  I often forget to taunt on tanks just because I normally play scrappers and brutes who don't even take taunt.  0 complaints.  I have my tier 9 on some characters that I use as mules and never use them.  I have had times when the team wipes and its use could have kept the fight going instead of having to start over.  0 complaints.  The closest I have seen is some people offer suggestions like slotting KB-KD into bonfire to turn it into a damage and mitigation tool instead of a minor damage area denial tool.  The person said they like the power the way it was and they were left alone after that.  I believe your fears are unfounded or based off of how people behaved before the game shut down. 

[Ralathar44]

15 minutes ago, HelenCarnate said:

I jump on random pugs all the time.  Since the game has come back I have literally never had anyone tell me how to use my powers or when (outside of 1 DFB where a melee got mad because I dared to use AoE imob before everything was grouped up so he had to move a little).  I often forget to taunt on tanks just because I normally play scrappers and brutes who don't even take taunt.  0 complaints.  I have my tier 9 on some characters that I use as mules and never use them.  I have had times when the team wipes and its use could have kept the fight going instead of having to start over.  0 complaints.  The closest I have seen is some people offer suggestions like slotting KB-KD into bonfire to turn it into a damage and mitigation tool instead of a minor damage area denial tool.  The person said they like the power the way it was and they were left alone after that.  I believe your fears are unfounded or based off of how people behaved before the game shut down. 

It's very simple.  Being able to have invulnerability for free without going down or losing aggro or getting debt on sets with a self rez by itself is rather broken.  Much less the other effects like DA's life tap + stun, FA free damage + knockdown, or WP's to-hit + damage buff.  It's not anyone else's fault you forget to use your powers and so want your self rez to be a cheat death to buy you the time you need to remember them. 


I admit, I'd love to see how broken Regen would be since you'd be able to eat any alpha strike, become invulnerable, and then just heal or pop MoG after not going down.  And able to do this like once every 2 minutes.  More or less removes the intended weakness of regen.

Edited August 11, 2020 by Ralathar44

[MTeague]

If a Cheat Death mechanic were to be added, I do not believe it should be available any more frequently than the old self-rez could trigger. 

 

[HelenCarnate]

1 minute ago, Ralathar44 said:

It's very simple.  Being able to have invulnerability for free without going down or losing aggro or getting debt on sets with a self rez by itself is rather broken.  Much less the other effects like DA's life tap + stun, FA free damage + knockdown, or WP's to-hit + damage buff.  It's not anyone else's fault you forget to use your powers and so want your self rez to be a cheat death to buy you the time you need to remember them. 


I admit, I'd love to see how broken Regen would be since you'd be able to eat any alpha strike, become invulnerable, and then just heal or pop MoG after not going down.  And able to do this like once every 2 minutes or less.  More or less removes the intended weakness of regen.

So you totally ignored the part about it being a lesser version?  The untouchable part is only in self rez powers so you can turn your toggles back on so you don't hit then drop to the floor again like when you try to use a wakie in the middle of a fight.  That could and should be removed if it fires off and prevents your death.  If there is a damage component, stun or KB those should be reduced as well.  From a balance perspective it would need to be enough that those with RotP are not encouraged to slot full damage and recharge and intentionally drop their health for a nuke (like blasters used to).  It would also not give you as much health meaning you could drop again if you are not careful.  It would not be god mode like you seem to think. 

 

And please do not assume you know my motives.  I would not take a self rez even if this were put in.  I don't get dropped to 0 enough for it to matter and my power picks are generally pretty tight.  If I did have a self rez I am normally the last one standing anyway so I would not use it to keep fighting but rather to pop back up after it is safe.  I am not against the change however because it would not affect my play at all and would allow others more options on how they build their characters.  As long as it is always off in PvP zones and can be turned off in Arenas I see no issues. 

 

And please don't mention debt protection.  No one who has played for any great length of time makes serious choices based on if they will get debt or not (outside of intentionally killing themselves for badges.) 

[Ralathar44]

11 minutes ago, MTeague said:

If a Cheat Death mechanic were to be added, I do not believe it should be available any more frequently than the old self-rez could trigger. 

 

I'll actually disagree with this, with a caveat.  If there was a new power set that was built and balanced with the idea of having a free cheat death in mind I could see it happening more often.  Or maybe it can trigger more often but you are noticeably debuffed (stacking) for a significant time span each time it triggers after the first so that it's more of a soft "nah" instead of a hard limit.  I do think there is nuance and room for such a mechanic, just not shoehorned in as presented in this thread as a straight up buff to the powers that's better than the original ability by far.

Edited August 11, 2020 by Ralathar44

[Razor Cure]

2 hours ago, Ralathar44 said:

This is literally just blatant power creep.

God, people need to get the hell over this term. Just because some CAN use (I wont say needs, because others here have made logical arguments for self rezzers being fine) an improvement, does not mean power creep. If a power is utterly shit (flurry, anyone?) would you dive into a thread on buffing it and cry about 'oh noes, it is power creep and all my toons will be FORCED to take it, to be the best of the best of the best, Sir!'

And what about negative power creep? Like the recent rebalance to Dark Miasma on MMs and Corrs. Quick, you better go advocate a roll back on that chance, since it was changing the sets power!

May as well argue every new powerset, power or IO we get is power creep. Let's just change nothing, ever, even if it would help.

 

2 hours ago, Ralathar44 said:

many of them use self rez.  Many of them tanks too

Ha. Dying on a tank.

 

2 hours ago, Ralathar44 said:

The option now exists and thus if the option is more effective (which it very much is as explained) I will be expected to use it and so I will end up using it for the sake of the team.

So every single toon you have, every power they take, every Io set..they are ALL the most effective options ever? Nothing taking cause you simply like or enjoy a power? WHat fun!

 

As Helen said, a change like the toggle proposal is 100% voluntary. If you use it, that is your choice.

[Ralathar44]

5 hours ago, Razor Cure said:

If a power is utterly shit (flurry, anyone?) would you dive into a thread on buffing it and cry about 'oh noes, it is power creep and all my toons will be FORCED to take it, to be the best of the best of the best, Sir!'

If the suggestion to buff it would make it better than primary pool powers then yes.  Weak powers can be deserving of buffs AND can be overbuffed by certain suggestions.  Both things can be true.  It's not an either or.  I'd certainly be ok with a pool power being roughly as powerful as primary set powers, but suggestions to make them more powerful than primary set powers I'd be completely against.
 

5 hours ago, Razor Cure said:

And what about negative power creep? Like the recent rebalance to Dark Miasma on MMs and Corrs. Quick, you better go advocate a roll back on that chance, since it was changing the sets power!

Truthfully the power level of high level heroes has creeped to such levels it prolly does need to be reduced overall.  The game has became alot more about instantly deleting groups and this squeezes out alot of utility and support.  This kind of thing is what prompted ED to happen, certain power sets and ATs became so powerful that others became trivial by comparison.  Why would you have a controller that actually specializes in CC in end game when you can just delete the mob and move to the next and you never die anyways?  The threshold for what a challenging mob group is has risen to like +4/+5 and this also completely shafts debuffer sets vs buffing sets (as well as a couple buffer sets).  There is a discussion right now abut how Wormhole needs to affect higher level targets to be useful.  This is one of the casualties of the power creep.  Masterminds are another since when you get to +4/+5 their pets start having extreme problems and on +3 and below in teams things explode before pets really have a chance to do anything.
 

5 hours ago, Razor Cure said:

So every single toon you have, every power they take, every Io set..they are ALL the most effective options ever? Nothing taking cause you simply like or enjoy a power? WHat fun!

I make flavor toons all the time, but there are definitely limits as to what I'd skip.  On a Force Field defender I wouldn't skip one of the big 3 bubbles for example.  Sure I COULD make a FF defender without any of them and just use force bolt and repulsion bomb and etc, but that's not being very respectful to any people I team with honestly.

 

If I take a rez power and it has the cheat death option then I'm using the cheat death option because not doing so is basically choosing to potentially wipe my team and I'm not that selfish.  Pretty direct cause and effect there.
 

5 hours ago, Razor Cure said:

Ha. Dying on a tank.

It's definitely not hard to do at low to mid level.  At high level tanks not being able to die is definitely a balance concern.  If you can tank +4/8 without any team assistance and without incarnate (which I'll give a pass as it's own separate thing) then tanks are too survivable.  They should definitely be able to tank that....WITH a team backing them.  The whole point of each AT is that it adds things that other ATs cannot do.  If a tank does not need support/crowd control then the only thing a tank needs is more damage.  Which is pretty close to the current state of things.  A set like Force Field is fantastic at leveling but then at high levels they are significantly devauled because mobs just explode before they can really do much.  This does not create a space for people keeping the team alive as tanks don't die and unless there is crazy overpull the mobs evaporate before they can target anyone and deal any real damage.  Heck we're pretty much back to the point where scrappers stop dying too. 

ED happened for a good reason lol and at this rate the game might need another hard nerf pass like that.

Edited August 12, 2020 by Ralathar44

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

11 hours ago, HelenCarnate said:

So you totally ignored the part about it being a lesser version?  The untouchable part is only in self rez powers so you can turn your toggles back on so you don't hit then drop to the floor again like when you try to use a wakie in the middle of a fight.  That could and should be removed if it fires off and prevents your death.  If there is a damage component, stun or KB those should be reduced as well.  From a balance perspective it would need to be enough that those with RotP are not encouraged to slot full damage and recharge and intentionally drop their health for a nuke (like blasters used to).  It would also not give you as much health meaning you could drop again if you are not careful.  It would not be god mode like you seem to think. 

 

And please do not assume you know my motives.  I would not take a self rez even if this were put in.  I don't get dropped to 0 enough for it to matter and my power picks are generally pretty tight.  If I did have a self rez I am normally the last one standing anyway so I would not use it to keep fighting but rather to pop back up after it is safe.  I am not against the change however because it would not affect my play at all and would allow others more options on how they build their characters.  As long as it is always off in PvP zones and can be turned off in Arenas I see no issues. 

 

And please don't mention debt protection.  No one who has played for any great length of time makes serious choices based on if they will get debt or not (outside of intentionally killing themselves for badges.) 

So you dont even seem to grasp that right here you are indeed advocating to radically change a power that you claim you never use, that would have a sweeping impact on the wide spread and very popular firex3 blaster build.

 

ROTP has never once been seen as a balance concern, and does exactly what players want it to do. In fact the only complaint I have ever heard about it consistently is because your dead when you use it you cant do a build up first.

 

The only kinda change some self rez powers might need is like the change made on Sentinels regen and its slight buff over standard regen. I suspect that is about as far as the HC devs would be willing to go( I HOPE)

 

A self res should not be a get out of trouble free card. I use it combined with mog on regen quite adeptly to get up even when surrounded and incapped when pushing my build to its limits.

 

This proposed change is the def of dumbing down because it would be a power that required no thought or strategy to use well.

[arcane]

I’m pretty sure this is the very last game where we need to get past the term power creep. 

[Leo_G]

21 hours ago, HelenCarnate said:

So even though it would not affect you in any way, you are against the proposed change because everyone else should have to play the same way you do?  Am I following that correctly?  Also who can rez and retoggle in 2-3 seconds?  Most of my characters have 6 or more toggles. Tough, Weave, 2 or more leadership, Combat Jumping and that is before any toggles from the AT.  

The irony is, it probably affects those that don't take the rez powers the LEAST but that is who this change is targeted for. 

 

Whether or not our to what degree the effect has is rather tangential to the discussion. If the suggestion is good or something else is going to be subjective. 

[Leo_G]

On 8/11/2020 at 12:12 PM, Hyperstrike said:

And thank you for telling me I'm being dishonest and hiding my true intention.

...

Way to overreact. 

 

You didn't even make a suggestion to disagree with in the quoted post. Context says that part of the post is targeted at the overall thread or more specifically the OP. 

[Grouchybeast]

21 hours ago, HelenCarnate said:

So you totally ignored the part about it being a lesser version?  The untouchable part is only in self rez powers so you can turn your toggles back on so you don't hit then drop to the floor again like when you try to use a wakie in the middle of a fight.  That could and should be removed if it fires off and prevents your death.  If there is a damage component, stun or KB those should be reduced as well.  From a balance perspective it would need to be enough that those with RotP are not encouraged to slot full damage and recharge and intentionally drop their health for a nuke (like blasters used to).  It would also not give you as much health meaning you could drop again if you are not careful.  It would not be god mode like you seem to think. 

To me this just sounds...really boring.  Like, here's the shiny full-strength awesome power where you rise from the dead in a burst of flame, or here's the dull, milquetoast version where basically nothing happens and you just keep fighting.  I don't want the devs to be spending their time on making the game less exciting.

[HelenCarnate]

56 minutes ago, Grouchybeast said:

To me this just sounds...really boring.  Like, here's the shiny full-strength awesome power where you rise from the dead in a burst of flame, or here's the dull, milquetoast version where basically nothing happens and you just keep fighting.  I don't want the devs to be spending their time on making the game less exciting.

Finally a valid counter argument. 

[Razor Cure]

1 hour ago, Grouchybeast said:

To me this just sounds...really boring.  Like, here's the shiny full-strength awesome power where you rise from the dead in a burst of flame, or here's the dull, milquetoast version where basically nothing happens and you just keep fighting.  I don't want the devs to be spending their time on making the game less exciting.

Not saying you AE at all but..this is exactly how AE strikes me, and yet there are people who do nothing else in the game.

A cheat death triggering need not be boring..why cant the ball of flame still fire off or whatever, exactly teh same as it does when you properly die?

[SeraphimKensai]

You mentioned the self Rez powers are the "most useless" powers in the game. Well by that logic these would be right up there in that category of you can only use them when you die. Hell I have a few characters at 50+++ that have yet to die once yet, so a power that only activates on your failure, is something I would still skip.

[Noyjitat]

Most rezs already have the untouchable buff affect you but sadly it sometimes doesnt activate in time to protect you.

[Hyperstrike]

 

5 hours ago, Noyjitat said:

Most rezs already have the untouchable buff affect you but sadly it sometimes doesnt activate in time to protect you.

This is the problem I've had.

You res, but you're literally hit the second you can be targeted again.  Before your HP starts coming up, before any untouchable effect drops into place.

I've had this on all armor rezzes, across every AT.  I've even had this problem with things like Return to Battle and Renewal of Light.