Switch "Echo" zones to free for all zones

[Greycat]

Just now, America's Angel said:

. So any talk about whether they would/would not like it is pure speculation. (Possibly valid, but still speculation.)

No, it isn't pure speculation. It is going from, again, *years* of comments of people saying they don't like PVP, period. Want nothing to do with it, play COH because they don't have to deal with it, etc. You just have to read through *this very thread* to see that. And the suggestion's been made other times, too - I'm sure a quick search would bring up even more threads with the same commentary on it. And you can use the Internet Archive and (with judicious searching) see comment on it going back to PVP's introduction into the game.

 

There are people who *just do not like* PVP, and play COH because they can avoid it. There are people who don't like PVP in this genre or environment, but might play it elsewhere. But it is not "pure speculation," by any means.

[macskull]

This game is extremely easy/casual-friendly and as such attracts the type of player who is just not interested in PvP.

[Greycat]

2 minutes ago, America's Angel said:

You forgot to read the last line of my post.

The last line didn't exist when I replied. See my reply (currently 46 minutes ago) and the timestamp of your edit which added it (42 minutes ago at time of writing.) So, no, I didn't.

 

That said? It's echoed very much in game. Otherwise... we'd have more people PVPing and the zones wouldn't be dead. It's not like they're hard to find or not referred to in game, or not visited by people (say) looking for shivans or badging.

[Ferrus_Xeno]

12 hours ago, America's Angel said:

I've PVP'd nonestop since CoV beta. Even I wouldn't assume to know what the playerbase wants.

 

But I do know that they've never had a taste of openworld PVP. So any talk about whether they would/would not like it is pure speculation. (Possibly valid, but still speculation.)

 

Also, please note I'm talking about the playerbase as a whole, not forum goers. Forum goers rarely represent what happens in game. (Need proof? Check out the "build gurus" in the archetype forums haha.)

While not in CoX, I did beta test DCUO which had the mechanic of 'hit a player with a power this turns on PVP'.  This was a nightmare to deal with, the players who didn't give two craps about PVP would jump into a spawn in the PVE environment, and some PVPer would intentionally move into the way to get hit with an AOE... causing the flag to active on both characters, the PVPer would then attack the  player who was fighting the spawn,killing them then running away to mess with someone else.  It made it impossible to enjoy the game with these people.   CoX PVP population from my perspective would do exactly the same thing if the game was open world PVP. 

I will note the devs. for DCUO fixed this quickly after MASSIVE complaints about this behavior.

Currently DCUO has the ability to flag your character as PVP, while the PVPers enjoy this, a huge portion of the playerbase does not turn the flag on, so the PVPers always fight in the middle of the 'safehouses' which impact others enjoyment as well.  Sorry I am there to fix equipment, sell, etc, not listen to the PVPer flight in front of the contact that I need to talk to.

 

As for CoX (at least before shutdown) I lost count how many times I have been harassed and insulted by PVPers that want to 'test their PVP build' against my PVE build... yeah like that is even remotely a fair fight, then after the 5th or 6th decline the insults fly...  No thank you.

[Glacier Peak]

1 hour ago, Ferrus_Xeno said:

As for CoX (at least before shutdown) I lost count how many times I have been harassed and insulted by PVPers that want to 'test their PVP build' against my PVE build... yeah like that is even remotely a fair fight, then after the 5th or 6th decline the insults fly...  No thank you.

Interesting perspective in your post, but it was the last part that confused me. To clarify, would you agree that labeling the people who you say "harassed and insulted" you, is a generalization towards a population of players who were not all actually harassing and insulting you? For example, I PvPed within the time frame you mentioned in your post, but I never encountered you to my knowledge. Would you consider me to have harassed and insulted you? It may just be my opinion, but I find it is important to refrain from generalizing when using blanket statements to paint a negative connotation on to a population of players.

 

One other question - the PvP mechanic in this game can only take place in this game in either the Arena or in a PvP zone. Your post left me with the impression that the PvPers who wanted to "test their PvP build" against you were in either of these locations. Is that a fair assumption to make? If so, I would remain confused as the intent of these locations are to do the very thing you mentioned. If not, could you further clarify?

[Leogunner]

23 hours ago, Greycat said:

No, it isn't pure speculation. It is going from, again, *years* of comments of people saying they don't like PVP, period. Want nothing to do with it, play COH because they don't have to deal with it, etc. You just have to read through *this very thread* to see that. And the suggestion's been made other times, too - I'm sure a quick search would bring up even more threads with the same commentary on it. And you can use the Internet Archive and (with judicious searching) see comment on it going back to PVP's introduction into the game.

 

There are people who *just do not like* PVP, and play COH because they can avoid it. There are people who don't like PVP in this genre or environment, but might play it elsewhere. But it is not "pure speculation," by any means.

Okay, but did you archive all these supposed comments as well as seek out contrary comments and further commit to the acquisition of a closer consensus?

 

...or are you just going by what your gut tells you?  I wouldn't disagree, I think a lot of people don't like PvP in CoX but it's wholly an inaccurate bias based on personal perception...and that could also be skewed by the weird changes that have gone on the PvP side of things.

 

Maybe if a sort of 3rd version of PvP power balance could be played with without altering current PvE or PvP balance to get a different experience, maybe more would enjoy participating.  Kind of like in GW2 where they have various differences between PvE, PvP and WvW.

[Greycat]

10 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

Okay, but did you archive all these supposed comments as well as seek out contrary comments and further commit to the acquisition of a closer consensus?

 

...or are you just going by what your gut tells you?  I wouldn't disagree, I think a lot of people don't like PvP in CoX but it's wholly an inaccurate bias based on personal perception...and that could also be skewed by the weird changes that have gone on the PvP side of things.

 

Maybe if a sort of 3rd version of PvP power balance could be played with without altering current PvE or PvP balance to get a different experience, maybe more would enjoy participating.  Kind of like in GW2 where they have various differences between PvE, PvP and WvW.

Going by history, population versus population in zones, history, the whole works. If PVP were at pre-I13 participation levels? I'd have a harder case, I think, in saying it's this wholly unliked by the community in general (and saying this as someone who *enjoyed* it, too.) I don't think I'm on anything close to shaky ground by saying it. I'd love to be wrong, answering questions on "where are the PVP zones, I want to take my character there and fight!" in help and the like. If people were seeking it out, there'd be *some* conversation on it. I think I've seen one person ask *if* there was PVP in the game in the last year. The amount of time I'm on is not inconsiderable, and I tend to watch Help while I am (as well as LFG for spillover there.)

 

And yes, part of the issue is that you really *do* have to learn to play a vastly different game. As a tank? Get ready to get mezzed. Healing? Watch it not work the same. Control? Eesh. But if the *demand* were there, people would be asking about PVP builds and just basic questions, as well. There'd be other people around in the zones. People would be looking for the arena. Those questions just don't come up.

[Glacier Peak]

12 hours ago, Greycat said:

And yes, part of the issue is that you really *do* have to learn to play a vastly different game. As a tank? Get ready to get mezzed. Healing? Watch it not work the same. Control? Eesh. But if the *demand* were there, people would be asking about PVP builds and just basic questions, as well. There'd be other people around in the zones. People would be looking for the arena. Those questions just don't come up.

So looking at this equation through the lens of supply and demand; an economic principle aptly tied to your discussion I might add - the intervention by a regulator whom I would characterize as the developer many years ago (specifically after the PvP mechanic was introduced) led to a change in "purchasing habits" of the population if you will. Segregating a section of this "market" led to a purchaser's bias, believing the regulating entity was inclined to invest in other industries (mechanics of the game, stay with me) and provide no incentive to buyers to continue purchasing the product of that industry.

 

My economic-fu is weak, so forgive my lack of clarity 🙂 

[ShardWarrior]

On 9/7/2020 at 7:08 PM, America's Angel said:

Currently, the only place to find PVP is:

-A hard-to-find zone, that you have to be max level to enter.

-Organised arena matches.

 

Neither of these allow players to stumble upon PVP. Open world PVP would. More stumbles = more new PVPers. (You know that all the fightclubbers would just duel under Atlas in front of all the newbies. Haha.)

There is more than one PvP zone in the game and only one of the is max level.  In my experience, open world PvP does not generate more interest in PvP.  Those who are interested in it will ask about it and make the effort to find out where to go and what to do.

[Greycat]

41 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

So looking at this equation through the lens of supply and demand; an economic principle aptly tied to your discussion I might add - the intervention by a regulator whom I would characterize as the developer many years ago (specifically after the PvP mechanic was introduced) led to a change in "purchasing habits" of the population if you will. Segregating a section of this "market" led to a purchaser's bias, believing the regulating entity was inclined to invest in other industries (mechanics of the game, stay with me) and provide no incentive to buyers to continue purchasing the product of that industry.

 

My economic-fu is weak, so forgive my lack of clarity 🙂 

Ehhhh.

 

It'd be more like an automaker makes cars that a large portion of the population doesn't like and isn't inclined to purchase - some might rent once in a while. Then they go from a steering wheel and pedals to a stick and buttons over the top of your head. There are still a couple of people who really like quirky cars, but it's the last straw for most of the audience who would have bought it.

 

Plus they get really horrendous paint colors.

 

[Ferrus_Xeno]

On 9/8/2020 at 11:33 AM, Glacier Peak said:

 Would you consider me to have harassed and insulted you? It may just be my opinion, but I find it is important to refrain from generalizing when using blanket statements to paint a negative connotation on to a population of players.

I am sorry if you took my comment as a generalization, it was not in any way meant as one.   There was no mention of you or anyone else specifically, nor did I say "all PVPers".

I was simply stating that I was repeatedly harassed, etc. by people that wanted to PVP and I had no desire.  E.G. Constant IMs  asking to PVP, to which I answer 'No thanks", then again, and again, each time stating No, then the "are you afraid", "coward', "pussy" etc. to the point of putting the offender(s) on ignore (which I really hate doing). 

 

As for the location, it was in PVE zones, not the arena or pocket D.  The only time I visited a PVP zone was with my SG mates, or because I was sent there as part of a mish thread.  I didn't even go get Shivan's and Nuke's because the the attitude I would see in the zones.

 

The few times that I actually enjoyed PVP in CoX was with the SG that i was a member, and a few others on Pinn, that would not just gank you but try to help you figure out what was need for builds etc. 

Edited September 9, 2020 by Ferrus_Xeno
add a line

[Glacier Peak]

1 hour ago, Ferrus_Xeno said:

I am sorry if you took my comment as a generalization, it was not in any way meant as one.   There was no mention of you or anyone else specifically, nor did I say "all PVPers".

I was simply stating that I was repeatedly harassed, etc. by people that wanted to PVP and I had no desire.  E.G. Constant IMs  asking to PVP, to which I answer 'No thanks", then again, and again, each time stating No, then the "are you afraid", "coward', "pussy" etc. to the point of putting the offender(s) on ignore (which I really hate doing). 

 

As for the location, it was in PVE zones, not the arena or pocket D.  The only time I visited a PVP zone was with my SG mates, or because I was sent there as part of a mish thread.  I didn't even go get Shivan's and Nuke's because the the attitude I would see in the zones.

 

The few times that I actually enjoyed PVP in CoX was with the SG that i was a member, and a few others on Pinn, that would not just gank you but try to help you figure out what was need for builds etc. 

For clarity, a generalization is "a general statement or concept obtained by inference from specific cases". In your post you described your personal experience using words and phrases like "lost count of how many times", "harassed and insulted", "by PvPers", "5th or 6th time". Combined these words and phrases become a generalized statement. With this inference in mind, that is why I sought further information from you in order to better understand what you had posted.

 

With the further information you provide, I can see that you have had a different experience than I have had (though I would describe a similar situation as yours as outright harassment not linked to a particular game mechanic (i.e., PvP) and would similarly use the block/ignore function or request assistance from a GM). I don't think your experience is right or wrong, better or worse, good or bad. So thank you for sharing!

[Darmian]

I think any attempt to build out the PVP community is not going to involve the Echo zones. Again, and I'm sounding very repetitive now, only Indom practices any level of real PVP and even that is mostly confined to RV, I don't know what the answer is right now. I've thrown out various suggestions above, though ultimately they still benefit PVE more than PVP, having read them again, so...

 

I think one thing has to be taken into account, and this applies to everything in the game, we need to look at the game as it is now. I read too many responses from people saying, "well, that is how it was on Live", or "On Live this was a thing", or "On Live they did such and such", or "before I13..."   Live is gone. Now is now.

Edited September 11, 2020 by Darmian

[Glacier Peak]

10 hours ago, Keovar said:

Games that are intended for PvP as their primary mode, like shooters and MOBAs, can form a very hostile culture, which spills over into any game in which PvP is possible.  It’s no wonder the whole playstyle is viewed with suspicion.  
Echo zones get more use as they are than the existing PvP zones.  As a way to get more traffic in those zones, it would backfire and do the opposite.  
You’re probably better off trying to convince other PvP fans to play on one of the test servers where anyone can be ready to engage in 30 minutes or less.  You might even get some who aren’t regulars to try it in an environment where they haven’t spent a long time developing and personalizing a character.  

Great post, thank you for your opinion.

[Glacier Peak]

2 hours ago, Darmian said:

I think any attempt to build out the PVP community is not going to involve the Echo zones. Again, and I'm sounding very repetitive now, only Indom practices any level of real PVP and even that is mostly confined to RV, I don't know what the answer is right now. I've thrown out various suggestions above, though ultimately they still benefit PVE more than PVP, having read them again, so...

 

I think one thing has to be taken into account, and this applies to everything in the game, we need to look at the game as it is now. I read too many responses from people saying, "well, that is how it was on Live", or "On Live this was a thing", or "On Live they did such and such", or "before I13..."   Live is gone. Now is now.

'Now' is the time!

[Lines]

Glacier, you have been nothing but an absolute gentleman in this thread.

[Darmian]

55 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

'Now' is the time!

I'm agreeing!

 

I'm thinking that an idealistic notion would be for players to have a PVE and a PVP build for their character(s) [Yes, I know some do this but I think the majority don't. Altitis doesn't seem to extend to a second build for some reason] and for there to be more to do in the PVP zones beyond "only" PVP/badging/shard&nuke collecting. A mission sends you to Warburg, you pull on your PVP build and off you go. I'm not sure.  I'm in the position of someone who by and large doesn't PVP yet doesn't want PVPers to lose out, because why should they?

Edited September 11, 2020 by Darmian

[Greycat]

4 hours ago, Darmian said:

 A mission sends you to Warburg, you pull on your PVP build and off you go.

When the zones were first introduced, there *was* a mission that sent you to the PVP zones - a simple talk to (talk to PVP zone liason.)

 

If you think people *now* complain about "having" to go to PVP zones for badges? It's a polite chuckle compared to the outrage people had at this. Some people *do not like* PVP, do not want PVP, do not want to be exposed to it, do not want to even acknowledge it's in the game. So the devs moved the contacts *outside* the zones, in the PVE areas - and, finally, stopped *giving* them as contacts, since they would block progress towards getting other contacts until you went to talk to them.

 

Putting missions in that force you to go to PVP zones? You'd better start liking the look of feathers stuck in the boiling tar that's covering you. I *like* the zones, though I think they need improvement on several things, and will fight (or just say "kill me and get it over with, this one's just not slotted for it," if that's the case) when I'm in there - but I'll argue against having missions force people to go into the zones all day.

 

That said, there *are* missions in there, which (appropriately) affect (only) the zone. You have to be of level to get the missions, of course - you can level past them. (You can also get a temporary stealth/invis/phase shift for doing a patrol, which I tend to find handy.) But nobody's forced to go in and do them.

[Greycat]

8 hours ago, Darmian said:

I think one thing has to be taken into account, and this applies to everything in the game, we need to look at the game as it is now. I read too many responses from people saying, "well, that is how it was on Live", or "On Live this was a thing", or "On Live they did such and such", or "before I13..."   Live is gone. Now is now.

"Those who do not remember the past are doomed to repeat it."

 

We have literal years of experience of what happened on live. Ignoring that and just saying "live is gone" is, frankly, foolish. We've learned what people do and do not like, what works, doesn't work and sort of works and that sort of thing. "Now is now" *IS* now because of what happened before.

[Darmian]

21 minutes ago, Greycat said:

"Those who do not remember the past are doomed to repeat it."

 

We have literal years of experience of what happened on live. Ignoring that and just saying "live is gone" is, frankly, foolish. We've learned what people do and do not like, what works, doesn't work and sort of works and that sort of thing. "Now is now" *IS* now because of what happened before.

I believe I failed to explain myself fully there.  Not arguing the point of experience and so on, and how we got to here. Take that as read,  But I'll give you a little example (and you might have already seen it but maybe others haven't so bear with me).  A while ago I pondered that perhaps the old Paragon Dance Party could be used for something else.  And I threw in some suggestions. Good or bad?  That's subjective obviously.  What isn't subjective is people declaiming things like "It was shut down on Live so that's the way it must always be. End of. " Which some did.  And I've come across that peculiar attitude elsewhere here and chatting to people in game or on Discord, as though Live was somehow carved in stone.  That was my reference point.  Again, I should have been clearer. Apologies.

[Darmian]

33 minutes ago, Greycat said:

When the zones were first introduced, there *was* a mission that sent you to the PVP zones - a simple talk to (talk to PVP zone liason.)

 

If you think people *now* complain about "having" to go to PVP zones for badges? It's a polite chuckle compared to the outrage people had at this. Some people *do not like* PVP, do not want PVP, do not want to be exposed to it, do not want to even acknowledge it's in the game. So the devs moved the contacts *outside* the zones, in the PVE areas - and, finally, stopped *giving* them as contacts, since they would block progress towards getting other contacts until you went to talk to them.

 

Putting missions in that force you to go to PVP zones? You'd better start liking the look of feathers stuck in the boiling tar that's covering you. I *like* the zones, though I think they need improvement on several things, and will fight (or just say "kill me and get it over with, this one's just not slotted for it," if that's the case) when I'm in there - but I'll argue against having missions force people to go into the zones all day.

 

That said, there *are* missions in there, which (appropriately) affect (only) the zone. You have to be of level to get the missions, of course - you can level past them. (You can also get a temporary stealth/invis/phase shift for doing a patrol, which I tend to find handy.) But nobody's forced to go in and do them.

A thought.  If those contacts were not contacts but say the equivalent of tips?  And you can dismiss tips.

 

And I do remember what that was like 🙂 I'm not a PVPer I'm just more thinking out loud about a reason to go there. Personally?  I stated my own preferences above. Reclaim Bloody Bay and Warburg for the Rogue Isles as PVE areas by either doubling them or flagging PVP off. Siren's Call needs a plot overhaul to be any use to anyone.  Even if Paragon cleared out the Arachnos it's still just a ruin.  And RV?  It's the only one that really seems to have a purpose in game (kinda). 

 

Again, we're all talking in circles IMO. Echo locations aren't going to be free for all, the under 40 PVP zones are mostly dead and RV is only active on Indom. 

 

Time to draw a line under this and move on for now methinks.

 

 

[Greycat]

Just now, Darmian said:

A thought.  If those contacts were not contacts but say the equivalent of tips?  And you can dismiss tips.

 

And I do remember what that was like 🙂 I'm not a PVPer I'm just more thinking out loud about a reason to go there. Personally?  I stated my own preferences above. Reclaim Bloody Bay and Warburg for the Rogue Isles as PVE areas by either doubling them or flagging PVP off. Siren's Call needs a plot overhaul to be any use to anyone.  Even if Paragon cleared out the Arachnos it's still just a ruin.  And RV?  It's the only one that really seems to have a purpose in game (kinda).

Should be a thread about these... somewhere.

 

I'm not a fan of removing zones from the PVPers (or... in general, really.) Doubling them, though - there's plenty of investigation to be done in Siren's, I'd say the plot needs to be fleshed out more than scrapped. BB is sort of "out in the middle of nowhere," so for those looking for coop - well, yes, bit of a revamp and some more Shivan storyline to flesh things out (besides DiB.) Warburg makes sense to be a redside zone, if it were duplicated for PVE.

[Darmian]

As an aside, there's a whole slew of island/landmass to the south of the Rogue Isles map that aren't even zones!  What's there?  A topic for elsewhere perhaps!

[srmalloy]

10 hours ago, Darmian said:

I read too many responses from people saying, "well, that is how it was on Live", or "On Live this was a thing", or "On Live they did such and such", or "before I13..."   Live is gone. Now is now.

No, all the callbacks to Live serve a purpose. We need to look back at how it worked on Live, and then say, "This is how PvP worked on Live. What parts of it do we want to keep, and what parts to we want to change, to make it good for Homecoming?" A starting point, not a goal.

[Darmian]

5 minutes ago, srmalloy said:

No, all the callbacks to Live serve a purpose. We need to look back at how it worked on Live, and then say, "This is how PvP worked on Live. What parts of it do we want to keep, and what parts to we want to change, to make it good for Homecoming?" A starting point, not a goal.

I believe I added some clarity to my point which actually agrees with you.  Callbacks and learned experience from Live = Good.  Treating Live as something never to be changed because "that's how it was and that's how it should remain" = not good.