Game Balance & The Endgame

[Haijinx]

2 hours ago, Wavicle said:

This is great. Game balance is important for the same reason why Justice League sucked.

I think the Super Hero comic analogy is way way over used to try and explain away/lobby for game mechanics in COH. 

 

It doesn't matter at all how Justice League was.  Whether it sucked or was awesome.  It wasn't an RPG nor an MMO. 

 

[ABlueThingy]

1 hour ago, ZacKing said:

What has to give is the stupid idea that globally nerfing everyone to make a few feel good is going to fix the problem without pissing a large group off. It's not going to solve the problem because people are still going to hit the ceiling.  people aren't soloing +4 x 8 at level 20 or 30 like they are at 50.  Make new harder content balanced around high powered 50s maxxed out with IOs in mind.  raise the ceiling, don't lower it.

 

What's keeping you on that team then?  You.

 

1 hour ago, ZacKing said:

What has to give is the stupid idea that globally nerfing everyone to make a few feel good is going to fix the problem without pissing a large group off.

 

Most people are against being stabbed or cut or having parts of you pulled out.  And yet surgeons still exist.  You can't beat cancer by making the rest of your cells reproduce faster.

 

1 hour ago, ZacKing said:

 It's not going to solve the problem because people are still going to hit the ceiling. ... raise the ceiling, don't lower it.

That's what I have been saying.

 

1 hour ago, ZacKing said:

 Make new harder content balanced around high powered 50s maxxed out with IOs in mind. 

I don't want to homogenize the game just to please the handfull of people that like playing as softcapped AoE nuke cannons.

 

[Haijinx]

5 hours ago, Apparition said:

Using radio or newspaper missions to advocate for any kind of balance changes is a folly.  They’re intentionally easy and full of trash mobs.  And what do players do with them?  They intentionally run the easiest of easy missions with the trashiest of trash mobs.  There is no balance to be had there.

Perhaps.

 

But they are also relatively much easier than they used to be. 

[FUBARczar]

1 hour ago, Wavicle said:

It is baseless. Nothing Number Six said suggests or implies that it’s going to radically alter the set to be completely unrecognizable. That was all you.

You're right it is not suggested or implied, he clearly stated "a mechanics change."  Changing momentum would strip Titan Weapons of it's most unique characteristic, its individualism and turn it into something else.  Either it will be a new unique mechanic or may just become another War Mace/Battle Ax.  

[HelBlaiz]

I'm not really comforted by the term 'rework' used to describe the work they're doing on TW either, but I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. Be cautiously optimistic, if you will. They could keep Momentum, increase the duration and balance the numbers to be fair. I'd be alright with a bit less damage for 10 second long Momentum instead of five for example.

[Kanil]

Just now, FUBARczar said:

You're right it is not suggested or implied, he clearly stated "a mechanics change."  Changing momentum would strip Titan Weapons of it's most unique characteristic, its individualism and turn it into something else.  Either it will be a new unique mechanic or may just become another War Mace/Battle Ax.  

honestly the most likely obvious change if its a buffnerf is that dmg overall is going down but momentum will provide a huge recharge buff lol

[Haijinx]

3 minutes ago, FUBARczar said:

You're right it is not suggested or implied, he clearly stated "a mechanics change."  Changing momentum would strip Titan Weapons of it's most unique characteristic, its individualism and turn it into something else.  Either it will be a new unique mechanic or may just become another War Mace/Battle Ax.  

This seems like speculation. 

 

=====

The story is that originally Titan Weapons had no damage bonus in its Build-Up analog.   

 

Then it got added in at the 11th hour.

 

Changing it back would also be a "Mechanics change"  for example.  

 

(Note this is ALSO Speculation)

Edited September 25, 2020 by Haijinx

[Wavicle]

3 minutes ago, FUBARczar said:

Changing momentum would strip Titan Weapons of it's most unique characteristic, its individualism and turn it into something else.

No, that's your assumption. He did not say how it would be changed.

[ScarySai]

18 minutes ago, FUBARczar said:

yes just clone tidal forces, or something else already used elsewhere, wait I know just turn whirling smash into whirlwind with damage.  Seriously though it's in the name "TITAN Weapons", it makes sense that it takes some time to build up momentum as one swings a massive object.

I know the Tar Patch and Rage nerfs were stupid overkill, but real talk: There's nothing to suggest they are going to massively overhaul how TW plays, all we know is that it's performance is going to take a hit, so let's at least put the pitchforks down until the appropriate time.

[FUBARczar]

10 hours ago, HelBlaiz said:

I'm not really comforted by the term 'rework' used to describe the work they're doing on TW either, but I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. Be cautiously optimistic, if you will. They could keep Momentum, increase the duration and balance the numbers to be fair. I'd be alright with a bit less damage for 10 second long Momentum instead of five for example.

Well TW is only the top performer for one AT, so if it's nerfed/reworked by just lowering damage and tweaking momentum, resulting in lower performance/DPS then Tanks and Brutes will needlessly pay a price for nothing.  

 

Edited September 26, 2020 by FUBARczar
sp

[HelBlaiz]

I didn't see the Tar Patch changes being all that DOOOOOM, personally. Dark Miasma is still a solid set.

[Haijinx]

Just now, FUBARczar said:

Well TW is only the top performer for one AT, so if it's nerfed/reworked by just lowering damage and tweaking momentum, resulting in lower performance/DPS then Tanks and Brutes will needless pay a price for nothing.  

 

Is it though?  

 

Or is it just that its most popular on that one AT, since playing it on a scrapper gives you the biggest bang for your buck.

[FUBARczar]

1 hour ago, ScarySai said:

I know the Tar Patch and Rage nerfs were stupid overkill, but real talk: There's nothing to suggest they are going to massively overhaul how TW plays, all we know is that it's performance is going to take a hit, so let's at least put the pitchforks down until the appropriate time.

lol, yeah until the appropriate time haha

 

[ABlueThingy]

5 minutes ago, FUBARczar said:

You're right it is not suggested or implied, he clearly stated "a mechanics change."  Changing momentum would strip Titan Weapons of it's most unique characteristic, its individualism and turn it into something else.  Either it will be a new unique mechanic or may just become another War Mace/Battle Ax.  

Well they could make Momentum last 20 seconds. Or 60.  Or maybe now all the attacks give a stack of "Gaining momentum" and after 3 stacks all the attacks activate and refresh Momentum. Have the buildup gives 3 stacks instantly. So after 3 swings it lasts for the rest of the fight as long as you don't stop, if you manage it carefully you can almost always avoid the slow animations.  Or something between those.  Or something else entirely. Those are all changes to the mechanics.

 

As long as they keep the broad feel of "Slow to start, monster once it gets going" I don't think it would lose it's uniqueness.

[golstat2003]

27 minutes ago, FUBARczar said:

yes just clone tidal forces, or something else already used elsewhere, wait I know just turn whirling smash into whirlwind with damage.  Seriously though it's in the name "TITAN Weapons", it makes sense that it takes some time to build up momentum as one swings a massive object.

Ehhh no really. Other games and media have done GIANT weapons and it does take going out to get you dry cleaning, fixing your car, and coming back home before the next swing is done. (:p joking ofcourse).

[Ralathar44]

47 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

The main change to easier acquisition of IOs were the seeding of the market, enhancement converters. (Though I think converts came at the end of live, so folks didn't really get to take full advantage of them.) Enhancement converters make it stupidly easy to make inf. Also the costs on merit vendors were reduced I believe.

And compound that by how much easier it is to hit 50 now with permanent xp boost at basically no cost.  Whatever inf you lose by getting only exp while leveling is overwhelmed very quickly by getting higher level drops and then pretty soon higher level inf gains.  Even the leveling process isnt going to cost you because you can just slot common IOs and not have to constantly replace.  1 character making IOs for you is super cheap and just a handful of sold rare salvage is all you need to make dirt cheap common IOs for any alt you ever have.  Then add on the inflation and the fixed price of common IO via the workbenches, Common IOs are a trivial expense now rather than an investment that would pay good returns.  They took some work to acquire on live.  Not super crazy huge amounts, but definitely noticeable.  On HC I had full common IOs within the first week for every new character.
 

Edited September 25, 2020 by Ralathar44

[golstat2003]

14 minutes ago, Kanil said:

honestly the most likely obvious change if its a buffnerf is that dmg overall is going down but momentum will provide a huge recharge buff lol

Meh, at that point I would just say the set is not for me. But that would be fine for those who would enjoy that.

[HelBlaiz]

6 minutes ago, FUBARczar said:

Well TW is only the top performer for one AT, so if it's nerfed/reworked by just lowering damage and tweaking momentum, resulting in lower performance/DPS then Tanks and Brutes will needless pay a price for nothing.  

 

Has anyone run the numbers on that? I imagine with 18%+ MOAR damage on all its attacks over the formula, it'd be incredibly strong regardless of AT.

[FUBARczar]

1 hour ago, Haijinx said:

Is it though?  

 

Or is it just that its most popular on that one AT, since playing it on a scrapper gives you the biggest bang for your buck.

yes, only one AT (Scrappers) has AT leading performance.  For Brutes and Tanks it is still good but not necessarily the best.  Take farming for example.  Brutes farming want to be the most efficient, which is why overwhelmingly for farming large mobs solo on a Brute Spines and Radiation Melee are on top.    

[golstat2003]

3 minutes ago, Ralathar44 said:

And compound that by how much easier it is to hit 50 now with permanent xp boost at basically no cost.  Whatever inf you lose by getting only exp while leveling is overwhelmed very quickly by getting higher level drops and then pretty soon higher level inf gains.  Even the leveling process isnt going to cost you because you can just slot common IOs and not have to constantly replace.  1 character making IOs for you is super cheap and just a handful of sold rare salvage is all you need to make dirt cheap common IOs for any alt you ever have.  Then add on the inflation and the fixed price of common IO via the workbenches, Common IOs are a trivial expense now rather than an investment that would pay good returns.  They took some work to acquire on live.  Not super crazy huge amounts, but definitely noticeable.  On HC I had full common IOs within the first week for every new character.
 

The acquisition rate on live was cancer. The market prices compared to HC were ridic in hindsight. Folks who complain about having to play the market here, should have felt how long it took on live. The acquisition of IOs and relative ease of the market is one thing I think they got right.

 

IOs can make you stupidly powerful. But that's not an HC change. We were well towards that on live.

 

But as you alluded to I can't see a massive IO rebalance anytime soon. Well . . . if you think soon is 2060 😛 

[FUBARczar]

1 hour ago, HelBlaiz said:

Has anyone run the numbers on that? I imagine with 18%+ MOAR damage on all its attacks over the formula, it'd be incredibly strong regardless of AT.

go look at the farming threads, with all the numbers they have posted about clearing times, and influence/hr, etc.

[golstat2003]

Just now, FUBARczar said:

go look at the farming threads, with all the numbers they have posted about clearing times, and influence/hr, etc.

Wait  . . . is anyone actually farming with regularity with TW? That would seem . . . extremely painful to me. lol

[FUBARczar]

 

1 hour ago, golstat2003 said:

Wait  . . . is anyone actually farming with regularity with TW? That would seem . . . extremely painful to me. lol

I did on live, but Spines is so much easier and as it turns out faster too.

Edited September 25, 2020 by FUBARczar

[HelBlaiz]

There are a not insignificant number of afk farmers, from what I understand. That requires pbaoes that aren't Momentum dependent, and made better with an additional pbaoe aura. Aka, Spines and Rad farm better not because they do better in aoe, but because they're less hands on.

[ABlueThingy]

1 minute ago, FUBARczar said:

5 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

Wait  . . . is anyone actually farming with regularity with TW? That would seem . . . extremely painful to me. lol

I did on live, but Spines is so much easier and as it turns out faster too.

 

How do they compare on the other stuff like Survivability and ST dmg?  I've not managed to get any TW up very high due to Momentum being a bucket of farts