Game Balance & The Endgame

[ShardWarrior]

7 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

No, I'm more saying you can have fun by contributing to the success of a team.  Having fun shouldn't mean you're the center of attention but I'm sure to some it should.  And even if being that core is fun, isn't it more benevolent to spread that fun to others and not just yourself even if you have to endure some lows amid the plateaus?

I did not see anything in the post I was replying to about being the center of attention, just that blasters nuking is "not fun for anyone" which clearly is not true.  Personally, I think people should find what is fun for them in game and do that which they find fun.  Chances are very likely there are others who enjoy the same things and style of play, so we can team up and have even more fun together.  That is the beauty of this game in that it can be played and experienced in many ways on many levels.  If people want to enjoy teaming up and being heavily reliant upon others, they can do that.  If people want to enjoy soloing or teaming up with others who are powerful enough to not need others, they can do that.  If people just want to solo, they can do that too.  Neither is wrong.  Where I personally will take exception is where a select few want to force everyone into a particular style of play via nerf herding with pseudo altruistic posts saying it is "for the good of the game."  Not saying you did this at all, however to me that is being just as selfish, if not more so.  

 

37 minutes ago, Ralathar44 said:

I think the goal is that everyone has space within the team to not just be useful but feel awesome.  This is actually a delicate balance because there is only so many mobs and so much incoming damage and a finite value of to-hit checks coming in.  So if any 1 person or if a few people are TOO awesome then that takes away from the ability of everyone else to be feel awesome.  Now as a sometimes thing, that's not a problem, but when everyone is too awesome as a matter of course it becomes a problem because again, there is a finite amount of awesome to go around because the mechanics by which we obtain the awesome are based on finite values.

I will repeat this again, everyone CAN feel awesome.  If you are on a team where you are not feeling useful, then find another team.  If you are staying on a team where you are not having fun or feeling super, that is definitely a you problem not a game problem.  Socialize, make friends with like minded people and go have fun together.  More importantly, no matter what level of nerfs are applied, there are always going to be players who are simply better and will outperform others.

 

Instead of advocating to nerf everyone down to a level where no one feels super because they need 7 other people to cross the street, we should be advocating for more choice in my opinion.

[BitCook]

1 minute ago, Judasace said:

There isn't a problem if people are having fun. If you're not having fun, maybe go find something that is fun for you instead of trying to change everything about the place you're in to suit what YOU think is fun.

 

You're like the vocal minority that ruined modern comics. You decide since a bunch of other people are enjoying something, but it isn't all about you and what you want, that you'll force everything to change until things are unrecognizable.

 

So yeah, I'm going to call out that BS for what it is. It's narcissism masquerading as concern. It's people that want everything to revolve around them and their own interests, so they manipulate until they get what they want...of course by that time everyone that liked things the way they were has been chased off, shouted down or cancelled.  And pretty soon the whole system collapses, because what was good about it has been warped into unrecognizability, and the people that made it good in the first place are gone, and all that are left are the narcissists trying to get everyone's to fall at their feet.

 

The game does not need to be balanced around team play. It's perfectly find as a game that can be 99% soloable and with the \re being some elements that require a team. Just because Everquest made the game a hardcore grind with certain "essential" classes does not mean that mold has to define every multiplayer game. There are plenty that do though, so rather than try to twist this into one of those, why not just go play one?

Okay, I think we're done here.  I've wanted none of the things you've said.  Good luck and perhaps read what people are saying instead of having knee jerk reactions.

I literally have been suggesting leaving a thing alone and perhaps helping struggling ATs.  Enjoy, have fun and I hope we don't meet in game as I am sure it would be a very unenjoyable experience.

[Leogunner]

2 minutes ago, Judasace said:

There isn't a problem if people are having fun. If you're not having fun, maybe go find something that is fun for you instead of trying to change everything about the place you're in to suit what YOU think is fun.

~ahem~

 

Just for some perspective: This IS a thread about balance and changes and future content, yes?  I would assume people would then be talking about said subjects and not trying to burn people that do want to talk about it on a stake.  Just because people have opinions doesn't mean they're trying to bring the sky down on everyone.  If you can't entertain some opinions, hypotheticals and facts, I wonder if you are even interested in participating in a discussion at all.

[Judasace]

1 minute ago, BitCook said:

Okay, I think we're done here.  I've wanted none of the things you've said.  Good luck and perhaps read what people are saying instead of having knee jerk reactions.

I literally have been suggesting leaving a thing alone and perhaps helping struggling ATs.  Enjoy, have fun and I hope we don't meet in game as I am sure it would be a very unenjoyable experience.

It literally took one post for you to drop from your "Don't make insults" high horse to doing exactly that.

 

Classic.

[Leogunner]

3 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

I did not see anything in the post I was replying to about being the center of attention, just that blasters nuking is "not fun for anyone" which clearly is not true. 

And the point I was making quoted yours and put for a different perspective.

 

You can still have your private conversation with whoever you were quoting in a public thread lol

 

6 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

Personally, I think people should find what is fun for them in game and do that which they find fun.  Chances are very likely there are others who enjoy the same things and style of play, so we can team up and have even more fun together.  That is the beauty of this game in that it can be played and experienced in many ways on many levels.  If people want to enjoy teaming up and being heavily reliant upon others, they can do that.  If people want to enjoy soloing or teaming up with others who are powerful enough to not need others, they can do that.  If people just want to solo, they can do that too.  Neither is wrong.  Where I personally will take exception is where a select few want to force everyone into a particular style of play via nerf herding with pseudo altruistic posts saying it is "for the good of the game."  Not saying you did this at all, however to me that is being just as selfish, if not more so.  

All non-controversial statements.  No one is arguing any of that.

 

The only thing I'm even responding with is my personal perspective of a person who enjoys a particular aspect of the game, does not demand such of others and feel like expressing my opinion on the forum of literally hog-tying myself from a lot of content to get the enjoyment out of it I want.  I'm sorry if you feel it is selfish of me to share that opinion with the forums while not enforcing it on others.  How rude of me.

 

 

[summers]

I know that this game has been out for a very long time and we are all invested in it but it would be nice for people to assume good will in these discussions and comment on the points made rather than spite the character of the person making them.

[Judasace]

4 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

~ahem~

 

Just for some perspective: This IS a thread about balance and changes and future content, yes?  I would assume people would then be talking about said subjects and not trying to burn people that do want to talk about it on a stake.  Just because people have opinions doesn't mean they're trying to bring the sky down on everyone.  If you can't entertain some opinions, hypotheticals and facts, I wonder if you are even interested in participating in a discussion at all.

If someone doesn't stamp on threads like this they'll multiply like ants, first one, then another, and pretty soon the picnic's ruined.

 

First one person complains about X powerset being OP, then another person complain about not having every team depend on them...and pretty soon the server admins are responding because they think everyone's unhappy, so the nerf bat starts flying, and a mass exodus ensues.

 

So someone's got to come in here and say what needs to be said without worrying about stepping on people's feelings: If you aren't happy, do what you need to do to solve your problems, stop crying to the admins until they change things to your liking. Because this game can't handle a mass exodus, which is exactly what this stuff leads to.

[Wavicle]

1 minute ago, Judasace said:

If someone doesn't stamp on threads like this they'll multiply like ants, first one, then another, and pretty soon the picnic's ruined.

 

First one person complains about X powerset being OP, then another person complain about not having every team depend on them...and pretty soon the server admins are responding because they think everyone's unhappy, so the nerf bat starts flying, and a mass exodus ensues.

 

So someone's got to come in here and say what needs to be said without worrying about stepping on people's feelings: If you aren't happy, do what you need to do to solve your problems, stop crying to the admins until they change things to your liking. Because this game can't handle a mass exodus, which is exactly what this stuff leads to.

I think you forgot one thing: SOON IT WILL BE GONE TO THE AMERICANS!

[Leogunner]

2 minutes ago, Judasace said:

If someone doesn't stamp on threads like this they'll multiply like ants, first one, then another, and pretty soon the picnic's ruined.

You're invalidating yourself from the discussion.

 

If me making thought experiments and crazy suggestions makes me some kind of ant to you, I guess I have nothing more to say to you.

 

[EDIT] FYI, I'm not angry or offended by you (I still don't know what would end up causing those emotions in me, frankly), I just don't think we'd have anything to ever exchange.  I like making suggestions or entertaining off-the-wall ideas because I know, from the perspective of reality and this all-volunteer team working on a over-decade old game, a lot of the stuff discussed will never happen.

Edited September 25, 2020 by Leogunner

[ShardWarrior]

3 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

And the point I was making quoted yours and put for a different perspective.

I understood you perfectly and if you were to read posts I have made here, I understand and can empathize with others who have a different point of view.  This is why I keep saying we should be looking for options, not attempting to balance around a universal play style couched in pseudo altruistic motives.

 

6 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

The only thing I'm even responding with is my personal perspective of a person who enjoys a particular aspect of the game, does not demand such of others and feel like expressing my opinion on the forum of literally hog-tying myself from a lot of content to get the enjoyment out of it I want.  I'm sorry if you feel it is selfish of me to share that opinion with the forums while not enforcing it on others.  How rude of me.

I did not say you were rude or should not post your opinions or anything of the sort.  Far from it.

[Judasace]

1 minute ago, Leogunner said:

You're invalidating yourself from the discussion.

 

If me making thought experiments and crazy suggestions makes me some kind of ant to you, I guess I have nothing more to say to you.

Typical Cancel Culture nonsense. Just because someone doesn't agree with you and speaks plainly, without regard for emotion, they're "Invalidated"

 

A valid part of any discussion is pointing out that taking the actions being discussed will lead to misery for everyone. I mean seriously...how are the "Support  players" gonna be the center of attention when everyone else leaves? You all gonna stand around and heal each other to High Nirvana?

[Leogunner]

Just now, ShardWarrior said:

I understood you perfectly and if you were to read posts I have made here, I understand and can empathize with others who have a different point of view.  This is why I keep saying we should be looking for options, not attempting to balance around a universal play style couched in pseudo altruistic motives.

But is it a universal play style couched in pseudo altruistic motives or is that the conclusion you've ended at?

 

Personally, when confronted with such a conundrum of attempting to discern reality from my own perception, I consider their point but from a neutral or seemingly beneficial (from my perspective) direction and compare it to the other persons example.

 

Confronted with your conclusions, I find it difficult to do that because I have no idea why you've taken such a defensive position to conflate or dismiss the motives of others.

[ShardWarrior]

1 minute ago, Leogunner said:

Confronted with your conclusions, I find it difficult to do that because I have no idea why you've taken such a defensive position to conflate or dismiss the motives of others.

I am not defensive at all.  No idea where you are getting that from.  I have posted in this thread repeatedly for people to play the way they want and let others play the way they want which solves any perceived problems they may have with team play.  Those who want to more heavily rely on others for fun can do so and those who prefer more solo play can do so as well.  Everyone wins with more options.

[Leogunner]

2 minutes ago, Judasace said:

Typical Cancel Culture nonsense. Just because someone doesn't agree with you and speaks plainly, without regard for emotion, they're "Invalidated"

 

A valid part of any discussion is pointing out that taking the actions being discussed will lead to misery for everyone. I mean seriously...how are the "Support  players" gonna be the center of attention when everyone else leaves? You all gonna stand around and heal each other to High Nirvana?

Oooh boy! If this weren't off topic, I'd continue this line of discussion.  As a chronic apathetic, I have no wherewithal for political correctness, faux-politeness or social SOP on these forums.  I've had multi-month bans from the game already for that (which is why I know this dialog thread would get quickly scrubbed if I even bothered to continue).

 

I will say, you can't have a valid discussion if your goal is to stamp out discussion.  Even your questions and hypotheticals are flat and pointless:

 

"how are the "Support  players" gonna be the center of attention when everyone else leaves?" lol how about taking that back a step and find out how you'd make support the center of attention at all first?  You don't have to "take action" to talk about something...and if my posts wouldn't constantly get deleted, I'd be more frank rather than exceedingly dry in my replies.

[BitCook]

7 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

Oooh boy! If this weren't off topic, I'd continue this line of discussion.  As a chronic apathetic, I have no wherewithal for political correctness, faux-politeness or social SOP on these forums.  I've had multi-month bans from the game already for that (which is why I know this dialog thread would get quickly scrubbed if I even bothered to continue).

 

I will say, you can't have a valid discussion if your goal is to stamp out discussion.  Even your questions and hypotheticals are flat and pointless:

 

"how are the "Support  players" gonna be the center of attention when everyone else leaves?" lol how about taking that back a step and find out how you'd make support the center of attention at all first?  You don't have to "take action" to talk about something...and if my posts wouldn't constantly get deleted, I'd be more frank rather than exceedingly dry in my replies.

He's an obvious troll.  Just ignore him and leave the discussion to people that actually want to participate and have points to bring up.

 

To clarify, not you Leogunner.

Edited September 25, 2020 by BitCook

[Leogunner]

Just now, ShardWarrior said:

I am not defensive at all.  

Putting negative labels that instill motive is a defensive mechanism to demoralize your opposition.

 

Shaming by purporting negative characteristics on those not in agreement with you might be an offensive (rather than defensive) move if it were actually true.

 

As for repeatedly reminding people of the "play it your way" mantra, I'm sure is beneficial to keep people in perspective.  It's similar to the reminder I would repeatedly post that "it's only a forum discussion. No one is taking your legos" so that people will stop basically telling people not to say "the words" and think "the ideas".

[ShardWarrior]

Just now, Leogunner said:

Putting negative labels that instill motive is a defensive mechanism to demoralize your opposition.

Well no, but if you want to feel that way, more power to you.  Feel free.

 

7 minutes ago, BitCook said:

He's an obvious troll.  Just ignore him and leave the discussion to people that actually want to participate and have points to bring up.

While I do not agree with the tone that was used, I can understand the reasoning behind it.  The nerfs to Regen, ED, GDN etc. drove quite a lot of people away from the game back in the day, so expressing caution about nerfing is a valid discussion point in my opinion. 

 

It is very easy to say people need to be tolerant and try to understand the viewpoint of others.  Actually doing it appears to be another thing. 

[BitCook]

1 minute ago, ShardWarrior said:

Well no, but if you want to feel that way, more power to you.  Feel free.

 

While I do not agree with the tone that was used, I can understand the reasoning behind it.  The nerfs to Regen, ED, GDN etc. drove quite a lot of people away from the game back in the day, so expressing caution about nerfing is a valid discussion point in my opinion. 

 

It is very easy to say people need to be tolerant and try to understand the viewpoint of others.  Actually doing it appears to be another thing. 

I might agree... but I've not actually advocated nerfs, if anything I've been fighting to prevent a nerf.  That's what amusing... but it's okay. 

Also, expressing an opinion and discussing opinions with actual points is valid.  Anything else... well less so.

[Widower]

Oi. Everyone calm down.

[Coyotedancer]

On 9/24/2020 at 5:42 PM, arcaneholocaust said:

I am now becoming more and more convinced of the existence of "Forum PvP'ers" that know the game's mathematics but the game not so much. "There's never really been a time when support characters were all that great" - Jesus Christ...

I've played this game for a very long time, Arcane... and I'm not one of the spreadsheet warriors by any means. Deep diving into the math isn't my thing. 

 

From "lived experience", it's always seemed to me that high level teams have never really needed support characters, though. Sure, they liked having them around... Most smart teams still do... But even in the old days they weren't exactly All That on an otherwise solid team.  Like I said upthread, maybe that perception is just a reflection of the type of people that I ran with in the old days, but the impression I got at the time was always of being "nice to have, but we'd have been fine if you'd brought the scrap instead".

 

Sorry if that observation offends you... But it's the truth as I experienced it.

 

 

Edited October 23, 2020 by Coyotedancer

[Coyotedancer]

3 hours ago, Ralathar44 said:

TBH I was pretty surprised to see that too.  Support has wavered in value from patch to patch and major change to major change but Defenders were borderline worshiped at one time and this was striking for me because it was a major difference from other MMORPGs...especially since so many of them did it without any significant healing.  Seeing a Forcefield defender join the team used to be a cause for celebration even if you were on a tank.  It kinda still is that way today at low levels.  There is the odd team here and there at high level a bubbler still feels useful on, but most of them these days have zero use for you. 

Even Traps used to get praise.  TRAPS.  Because yeah they knew your regen triangle would be unreliable from mob to mob but it was great for stationary fights and your FF generator provided defense and mezz resist.  Those two things alone were enough for teams to love you joining.  Now they don't need either of those in most high level teams and the average kill speed is so fast now that your immobile nature is more of a liability than ever before.

 

Just to point out here, since I seem to have become the thread's latest chew toy... I have been talking about high level teams here. Support characters have always been loved (and needed much, much more-) at lower levels. 

[Judasace]

6 minutes ago, Coyotedancer said:

I've played this game for a very long time, Arcane... and I'm not one of the spreadsheet warriors by any means. Deep diving into the math isn't my thing. 

 

From "lived experience", it's always seemed to me that high level teams have never really needed support characters, though. Sure, they liked having them around... Most smart teams still do... But even in the pre-ED days they weren't exactly All That on an otherwise solid team.  Like I said upthread, maybe that perception is just a reflection of the type of people that I ran with in the old days, but the impression I got at the time was always of being "nice to have, but we'd have been fine if you'd brought the scrap instead".

 

Sorry if that observation offends you... But it's the truth as I experienced it.

 

See, I completely agree, and it's one of the best things about the game. No one "Needs" any AT to just play the content.

 

Now, if you're talking about harder stuff, the high end TFs and Trials, then yes, you need support classes. And Tanks, and damage dealers. There is content where all ATs are necessary.

 

But to try and nerf things to the point where every mission in the whole game is like playing an iTrial seems to be the goal of some.  The vast majority of the game shouldn't require any particular combination of ATs to play. Support may not be the most important player on the team...right up until you run into an AV whose regen needs floored, and that's when you get to shine. An ordinary group of minions, Lts. and bosses shouldn't need a debuffer for a group to take care of them.

[Ralathar44]

1 hour ago, BitCook said:

There is some truth there.

Thankfully the game is easy enough that even subpar damage dealers can be played or any AT because you like it.  However, that does not mean it's balanced.  Also, the "groupthink" is that buffs/debuffs are really valuable.  That was the case perhaps early in the game and maybe even up to a few episodes before it closed.  I've laid out why I don't think that's the case any more.  Just like I've laid out why I don't think control powers are really all that useful except solo/small teams.  I don't expect everyone to agree with me, but I do think I've at least given why I think it's the case instead of just stamping my feet and demanding anything.

Just had another example of it tonight.  Mentored down to a Penelope Yin TF on my TA defender and felt very useful and we had actual fights.  Joined a PI radio team afterwards and groups were literally dying by the time my second debuff landed.  Disruption Arrow > Oil Slick Arrow and the mob was almost dead by the time Oil Slick Arrow had landed.  And Disruption Arrow was hit before any AOEs did.  So technically I got Value from disruption Arrow I guess, but then on to the next fight with both on cooldown.  Level 54 enemies so +4 to most, +3 to level shifted, +5 to sk'd up.

Edited September 25, 2020 by Ralathar44

[WindDemon21]

Can we also PLEASE make sure to get right click commands to convert IOs, ie right click and press "S" for in set conversion, "R" for rarity, and "C" for category. Would help out a TON when mass converting.

[ScarySai]

1 hour ago, GM Widower said:

Oi. Everyone calm down.

What do they pay you?

 

Because it's not enough. 😄