Game Balance & The Endgame

[Haijinx]

3 minutes ago, FoulVileTerror said:

"If I can do it, anyone can" is a pretty massive fallacy.

I think some of those who make the "just use the current tools" argument are genuine. 

 

Others just want to prevent any nerfing or increased difficulty.   

 

Sometimes its hard to know which.   But when genuine I wouldn't think its a fallacy.  

[ShardWarrior]

3 minutes ago, BitCook said:

I should clarify.  I can not think of any 8 level 50 toons that can not make a mockery out of the hardest content in the game, unless you specifically gimp those characters by say not slotting ACC, or just taking TOs or something equally silly.  Thus making those same characters useless for anything other than your small dedicated team.

I personally do not see an issue with 8 level 50s being able to steamroll content.  To me, this fits with the superhero theme.  This is also why I and others have repeatedly suggested for new level 50+ content that is designed for and specifically balanced around IOs and incarnates.  Until then, people can find all the challenge they are looking for and then some by forming their own teams and running the various challenging AE content available.

[Lockpick]

11 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Also I could turn this all around on you. Lets say the game was hard.  The Baddies weren't so stupid.  Sunshine.  Rainbows.  Clowns.  Whatever.  Most everyone was cool with it.  But a few wanted the game to be much easier.  And msny just told you, "I don't care what you think go play the super easy stuff.  And good luck finding a team."  Seems a little. Eh.  Dismissive.  Tone wise.  Not saying that's what your post was per se.  But a feel of similar posts in general.  Since the same argument has been made tons of times.  

 

I don't know.  If the game was super hard and I wanted to play easier content and I had the option to create easier content I would create it.

 

Let's try to remember that we had old school CoH and the Live team set about making it easier because that was what the players wanted.  Now we have a much smaller player base with a much smaller team supporting it.  You don't have the scale to make the game harder for everyone because many people will get upset and leave.

 

I would really be interested in the percentages of people that believe the game is to easy, those that think it is to hard, and those that think it is just right.  My suspicion is that the people that think the game is to easy will be in the minority because they are the ones that have min/max builds, the time to play the game to get the build components, and the inf to buy what they need. 

 

Many players don't have those things and work off of SO / IO builds.  I have a friend who plays maybe 2 to 3 times a month.  His highest level character is about 35 and his build is a basic IO build with some set IOs.  He doesn't think the game is to easy.  By contrast I have 16 50s and few more on the way.  All of them played to 50, not PL'ed.  So I play a ton of hours and can afford my builds to be min/max.  I think the game can be easy if you min/max, but I also have characters that I build to be mere mortals and I get a challenge when I play those characters.  I think the game is just about right.

 

This happens in every game it seems.  The minority of power gamers come through and get really vocal that the game is to easy and the voice of the average players are not heard because they don't see a problem and aren't on the forums.

 

[BitCook]

Just now, ShardWarrior said:

I personally do not see an issue with 8 level 50s being able to steamroll content.  To me, this fits with the superhero theme.  This is also why I and others have repeatedly suggested for new level 50+ content that is designed for and specifically balanced around IOs and incarnates.  Until then, people can find all the challenge they are looking for and then some by forming their own teams and running the various challenging AE content available.

I am also on board with new challenging content balanced around IOs and all.  Frankly I doubt anyone would be upset with that.

However, there's a TON of content in CoX that runs the gamut of fun to boring.  For me at least any solution that doesn't allow us to pick whatever content we want and have a reasonable expectation that our characters will be useful is a huge fail for a game that used to be perhaps one of best if not the best balanced in terms of how it handled ATs.

[ShardWarrior]

1 hour ago, BitCook said:

I am also on board with new challenging content balanced around IOs and all.  Frankly I doubt anyone would be upset with that.

However, there's a TON of content in CoX that runs the gamut of fun to boring.  For me at least any solution that doesn't allow us to pick whatever content we want and have a reasonable expectation that our characters will be useful is a huge fail for a game that used to be perhaps one of best if not the best balanced in terms of how it handled ATs.

The game was never that well balanced.  There were people soloing TFs long before there were IOs and Incarnates. 

Edited September 27, 2020 by ShardWarrior

[ShardWarrior]

13 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

I think some of those who make the "just use the current tools" argument are genuine. 

 

Others just want to prevent any nerfing or increased difficulty.   

 

Sometimes its hard to know which.   But when genuine I wouldn't think its a fallacy.  

People who say they are incapable of finding like minded players are quite frankly full of crap.  I belong to half a dozen channels and between those and LFG I have had no difficulty finding like minded players.

[BitCook]

6 minutes ago, Lockpick said:

Let's try to remember that we had old school CoH and the Live team set about making it easier because that was what the players wanted.  Now we have a much smaller player base with a much smaller team supporting it.  You don't have the scale to make the game harder for everyone because many people will get upset and leave.

First of all I liked this post because I think there's some very interesting things that are probably true.

The top part is the only part I'm not totally sure on.  I think you could tweak some scales down pretty easily and perhaps change some of the survivability options down a little and globally tune the game.  Would that be a good thing, I don't know... but I don't know if what you are saying is out of the realm of possibility.  Some of the other servers have done some pretty extreme things in rebalancing and I'd expect this team could as well.

6 minutes ago, Lockpick said:

I would really be interested in the percentages of people that believe the game is to easy, those that think it is to hard, and those that think it is just right.  My suspicion is that the people that think the game is to easy will be in the minority because they are the ones that have min/max builds, the time to play the game to get the build components, and the inf to buy what they need. 

This is probably very true.

The only thing I would point out is that at the current level of the game it only takes 1/8 of the player base to have builds to potentially trivialize content for everyone else.  That is something to consider.  Perhaps the gap bottom to top is too wide?

6 minutes ago, Lockpick said:

This happens in every game it seems.  The minority of power gamers come through and get really vocal that the game is to easy and the voice of the average players are not heard because they don't see a problem and aren't on the forums.

I might disagree on the minority, but have no numbers to support it either way.  A poll would be good... although people who debate on forums are likely already heavily invested in the game and are probably the last people to ask 🙂

[BitCook]

4 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

The name was never that well balanced.  There were people soloing TFs long before there were IOs and Incarnates. 

Agreed, but because of a number of factors the average power of a PUG was FAR less than it is now.  Some are direct changes.  Some are the availability of IOs.  Some are new powers/IOs.  Powerset Proliferation... etc.

I still think of all of the MMOs I played, live CoX had the best balance between Damage/Support/Tank/Control.  I think all had space and time to shine on any team and you could do anything without any one particular AT.  That's only an opinion, but I do think that's partially why it was so endeared to a lot of people.  They just kind of got a lot right.

[Lockpick]

1 minute ago, BitCook said:

I might disagree on the minority, but have no numbers to support it either way.  A poll would be good... although people who debate on forums are likely already heavily invested in the game and are probably the last people to ask 🙂

Maybe an in game poll would be good. 

 

I alluded to this earlier, but I will add to it.  My bet is that people saying the game is to easy are the ones that planned out their builds to be min/max and are incarnated out.  Basically, they made their character into a godlike character and the character plays like a god.  Then we are being told the game is to easy for these gods.

 

Maybe a good way to check is do some data analysis on the characters being played.  I would look at data around character play time, types of IOs, incarnates, etc.  You can then at least see if the majority of active players are incarnate gods.  That should lead to some data supported decision making.

 

[ShardWarrior]

33 minutes ago, BitCook said:

Agreed, but because of a number of factors the average power of a PUG was FAR less than it is now.  Some are direct changes.  Some are the availability of IOs.  Some are new powers/IOs.  Powerset Proliferation... etc.

I still think of all of the MMOs I played, live CoX had the best balance between Damage/Support/Tank/Control.  I think all had space and time to shine on any team and you could do anything without any one particular AT.  That's only an opinion, but I do think that's partially why it was so endeared to a lot of people.  They just kind of got a lot right.

I do not thing PUGs today are any different than they were prior to sunset.  We absolutely never required the trinity on any team.  I specifically remember steamrolling Manticore, Sister Psyche, even Posi back in the day.  Even Hamidon was easy back then once we figured out the right strategy.  IOs play a part now in that they are more accessible.  Prior to sunset, most people did not even use them given the absurd prices on them in the AH.  This is a reason why I have suggested any new high level content should be designed for and balanced around IOs.  Someone suggested earlier to use Kallisti Wharf as a new level 50+ zone.  I think that is an excellent idea.  It is a great place to start fresh with all new enemy factions that can be tailored for higher powered builds. 

[skoryy]

32 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

I do not thing PUGs today are any different than they were prior to sunset.  We absolutely never required the trinity on any team.

Tanker Tuesday was a weekly event back in live.  I also remember someone on the forums mentioning all TA/A defender TFs.

[ShardWarrior]

2 hours ago, BitCook said:

Basic mechanics, because some ATs are overtuned, then several ATs like Controllers/Dominators and to a lesser degree Defenders and Corruptors are not (as?) useful unless you restricting some of the more overtuned classes from joining.

Basic mechanics are in no way preventing you from socializing and forming teams.

[Giovanni Valia]

1111 replies to this thread in the past 6 days. Geez

[ABlueThingy]

1 hour ago, ShardWarrior said:

People who say they are incapable of finding like minded players are quite frankly full of crap.  I belong to half a dozen channels and between those and LFG I have had no difficulty finding like minded players.

Which channel should I join that would let me make/join teams where I can play max level content with my Mind/Emp controller(fully IO'd and sitting at the soft cap) where my buffs and heals and controls and damage won't be so minuscule as to be functionally pointless?  I team where I can not just feel useful but actually BE materially useful to a team?

 

Remember, I want to play max level content.  Hardest stuff.  I need a team also running at that level.

 

I'm not talking RP, I'm not talking teaming with friends and shooting the shit. 

 

I am a good player, I know how to play this game, I know how to build a working IO build.  I should be able to bring any AT and any Powerset combo to the end game and make a noticeable difference to my team's chances of success.

 

That is not true with the game as it is.  And while there are some issues(obviously) with Mind and Emp on their own just buffing them will not be enough.  Any +rech beyond what you need for a stable rotation and getting what you need Perma Perma'd is just icing.  Damage/def/res over the cap is literally worthless.  High level players all make sure they have no end issues.  Everyone being at the various defensive caps and having access to various super-modes and self heals and various clicks means my heals and regen are just icing.  My damage is on par with something like two or three procs missing or a scrapper sneezing and misclicking their combo. Controls are pointless because everything dies almost instantly, negating the whole point of my primary.  The few that do survive and return fire run into the aforementioned wall of res/def and fail to land meaningful blows so it's a null point, they were safe either way.

 

The only thing I can do is build for damage, because more damage is (usually) going to contribute.  But almost anyone else could do a better job of that.

 

Buffing the controls won't do anything for this

Buffing the buffs won't do anything for this

Buffing the heals won't do anything for this.

 

All you can do is buff the damage.  Make all the AoE holds deal damage so you can stuff them full of procs and then max out your recharge to spam them.

Which just means a high level Mind/Emp plays just like everything else. 

 

All this power creep, procs, IOs, Incarnate powers have homogenized the whole of the upper tiers of CoH and it's bleed down through the rest of the game.

 

I don't want to nerf things into homogenization, into being the same.  I want to RESTORE the difference between power sets and ATs, to give them all their own distinct play style and life. 

 

I want to nerf the homogenization.

 

 

 

43 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

I do not thing PUGs today are any different than they were prior to sunset.  We absolutely never required the trinity on any team.  I specifically remember steamrolling Manticore, Sister Psyche, even Posi back in the day.  Even Hamidon was easy back then once we figured out the right strategy.  IOs play a part now in that they are more accessible.  Prior to sunset, most people did not even use them given the absurd prices on them in the AH. 

The first sentence contradicts the last one.  It does NOT contradict the rest of it though.  PUGs are more powerful than before sunset, on average, because there's more IOs floating around. And also prior to sunset you could steamroll a lot of content.

 

I played through pre-purple patch, I did the wolf farms, I did the monkey farms.  I remember ED, I remember it getting leaked from the CoV beta fourms just before I got my beta pass.  I remember why they needed ED.  This game would not have lasted to Going Rogue without ED or something similar.

 

It's disingenuous to say that because we could steam roll then and we steam roll now that nothing has changed.  In the old days, post-ED and pre-IO,  you could steam roll because everyone had powers that were roughly on par with one another.  Blasters and scrappers could deal tons of damage but they couldn't take a hit, they needed a tank or controller or defender.  You didn't need *A* tank or *A* defender or *A* controller.  But you needed someone, if you wanted to do harder content.  If you wanted to steamroll easier content. 

 

You need to be able to kill the monsters before they kill you.  That means you need to make your team's DPS greater than the enemy regen.  And you need to do the inverse for your team. Scrappers and Blasters add raw numbers to the team DPS. Controllers and Def multiply those numbers in any of a dozen ways.  Tankers and Controllers functioned as an enemy DPS sink by forcing the damage onto a harder target and reducing the amount to just stoping their incoming damage entirely. Controllers/Defenders multiplied that effectiveness as well.

 

In X seconds, your team will run out of HP.  In Y seconds the enemy will run out.  Part of a team is getting X to be larger then Y.  It doesn't matter how.  That was the glory of CoH.  Either people raise X or lower Y through any of a billion ways.  Everyone had something they could offer to push those number around. And there was cross over and bleed, some blasters did debuffs and some scrappers could tank.  That's awesome, I love that part of the game. 

 

But the math has changed now.  The ways in which Status effects and buffs and to an extent debuffs help has been marginalized.  Not because they became less effective on their own mind you.  But when you can pile on so much damage that Y is down to 0.1 seconds there's no need to change X. 

 

Incarnates and IOs let people raise X, mechanically repalaceing the role in boosting X that used to go to tanks/support.  Soft capping, boosting self regen, tough/weave. Etc.  And Purples and mega set bonuses and Incarnate abilities have lowered Y to the point where you don't need force multipliers anymore. 

 

Hell, you don't even need different ways of GETTING to (X>Y) anymore.  I mean, I love that all the sets-- ok most of the sets-- feel different to use.  They each have their own playstyles and let you raise X or lower Y in their own little unique ways.  But now it's just, soft cap Def and let the AoEs rip, every one has a judgement.  Well, they have a judgement or they are irrelevant to Y.

 

This is the real threat of homogenization.

 

 

43 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

  This is a reason why I have suggested any new high level content should be designed for and balanced around IOs.  Someone suggested earlier to use Kallisti Wharf as a new level 50+ zone.  I think that is an excellent idea.  It is a great place to start fresh with all new enemy factions that can be tailored for

higher powered builds. 

 

What I'm trying to get across here is all that making new, harder, content does with the Meta remaining stagnant is make doing huge AoE damage even more important.  It marginalizes the others even more.  Unless you made AoE damage irreverent somehow, like giving the new enemies stupid high AoE def...

 

...But that's just nerfing AoEs in a roundabout way. Which people(Not singling you out) keep insisting they don't want.

 

It means raising Y and/or lowering X.  Harder content means the players have a higher risk of death.  Either because the enemy does more damage(lowering X) or because they are harder to kill(raising Y)

 

In the end it seems like we all agree that X needs to be lowered and Y raised.  ie. we need harder content.

 

But just expanding the highest tier stuff without addressing systemic inequalities between sets and ATs will result in even more homogenization.

 

Rebalancing the game and taking AoEs down from being King Spit on Fudge Mountain to instead being "Another equally useful tool" is what I want to see happen.

 

 

 

[Ralathar44]

59 minutes ago, Giovanni Valia said:

1111 replies to this thread in the past 6 days. Geez

Yup, there are a variety of opinions on the state of the game and what it should be.  Some folks miss the greater variety and/or challenge of live servers and the more even spread of ATs/power sets even though live still wasn't perfect ofc.  Some folks enjoy the current level of power where pretty much every AT can solo level 30+ content meant for teams which leaves the game heavily tilted towards melee, blasters, and damage controllers ( which is not debatable ).  I think there has been enough discussion and different opinions to show pretty clearly that the current status quo is not ideal to a great amount of players and indeed this thread itself pretty directly states it's not ideal to the devs either.

The question is in trying to find a balance to fix some of those issues folks have without overly stepping on the toes of the people who don't want their characters to be even the slightest bit less godlike overpowered vs the current level 30+ content.  Both sides are very invested players not representative of the casual crowd composing much of the playerbase.  I speak for myself and I've made that very clear, but some folks here attempt to speak for all players and what they should do and how they wouldn't need changes when they are plainly not representative of most players :P.

I think the devs are going to end up doing some good work but are going to get alot of pushback for it considering the original post.

Edited September 27, 2020 by Ralathar44

[ShardWarrior]

26 minutes ago, ABlueThingy said:

Which channel should I join that would let me make/join teams where I can play max level content with my Mind/Emp controller(fully IO'd and sitting at the soft cap) where my buffs and heals and controls and damage won't be so minuscule as to be functionally pointless? 

The one you chat to and communicate to others in.  This is not rocket science.  If you are on Torchbearer, try TB Bag channel.  Plenty of great players on there and always something going on.  There are any number of ways to find the challenge you are looking for.  Many people here in this thread have already made suggestions for what content to run.  Sorry to be blunt, but stop blaming the game for your total lack of ability and willingness to work within the existing system.

 

38 minutes ago, ABlueThingy said:

The first sentence contradicts the last one. 

No, it does not.  You could steamroll content then just as you can steamroll it now.  You could completely remove IOs from the game and have nothing but SOs and people would still steamroll the content.  IOs have had some impact but not to the extreme degree most think.

 

31 minutes ago, ABlueThingy said:

It's disingenuous to say that because we could steam roll then and we steam roll now that nothing has changed.  In the old days, post-ED and pre-IO,  you could steam roll because everyone had powers that were roughly on par with one another.  Blasters and scrappers could deal tons of damage but they couldn't take a hit, they needed a tank or controller or defender.  You didn't need *A* tank or *A* defender or *A* controller.  But you needed someone, if you wanted to do harder content.  If you wanted to steamroll easier content. 

You almost never needed someone to help with harder content outside of Hamidon raids.  I know because I soloed quite a lot on my scrapper back in the day and soloed a few TFs here and there.  There were a lot people soloing TFs back then.  I remember the threads for it where they posted screenshots of their completion.  Other players were never a necessity for most content. 

 

33 minutes ago, ABlueThingy said:

What I'm trying to get across here is all that making new, harder, content does with the Meta remaining stagnant is make doing huge AoE damage even more important.  It marginalizes the others even more.  Unless you made AoE damage irreverent somehow, like giving the new enemies stupid high AoE def...

You are assuming that any new content would just be increasing a decimal or two in the code and calling it a day.  There are any number of possibilities that can be done to add new mechanics to the game so something other than AoE would be required.  See the various kinds of Mitos and Hamidon where it is not just about raw damage.

[golstat2003]

4 hours ago, Haijinx said:

I think some of those who make the "just use the current tools" argument are genuine. 

 

Others just want to prevent any nerfing or increased difficulty.   

 

Sometimes its hard to know which.   But when genuine I wouldn't think its a fallacy.  

I want increased difficulty modes. Besides outliers like TW, I don't think there is much nerfing (or buffing, besides the few things I pointed out pages back) is needed. I like the difficulty of the base game where it is.

[golstat2003]

3 hours ago, BitCook said:

I am also on board with new challenging content balanced around IOs and all.  Frankly I doubt anyone would be upset with that.

However, there's a TON of content in CoX that runs the gamut of fun to boring.  For me at least any solution that doesn't allow us to pick whatever content we want and have a reasonable expectation that our characters will be useful is a huge fail for a game that used to be perhaps one of best if not the best balanced in terms of how it handled ATs.

The game was never balanced in how it handled ATs. You're looking at it with rose colored glasses. There have been certain points where dominators, controllers and blasters were terrible to play. And the devs had always had to make changes to fix it.

 

There was never this good ol'd days nerva of balance that folks keep referring to. It never existed as COH has never been all that balanced in the majority of it's time.

[ABlueThingy]

6 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

The one you chat to and communicate to others in.  This is not rocket science.  If you are on Torchbearer, try TB Bag channel.  Plenty of great players on there and always something going on.  There are any number of ways to find the challenge you are looking for.  Many people here in this thread have already made suggestions for what content to run.  Sorry to be blunt, but stop blaming the game for your total lack of ability and willingness to work within the existing system.

There is no amount of social engineering that will counter the structural inequalities built into the mechanics of the game.  Specifically the ones I presented.  I've told you the challenge I'm looking for. And explained how I can't get it.  Because it's not an option. None of the content presented fixes the issue I'm talking about.

 

To be blunt, stop assuming I lack the ability or willingness.  The system is broken.

 

6 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

No, it does not.  You could steamroll content then just as you can steamroll it now.  You could completely remove IOs from the game and have nothing but SOs and people would still steamroll the content.  IOs have had some impact but not to the extreme degree most think.

the TL;DR would be "There is a quantitative difference in both average and upper level player strength between pre and post IO builds. The specific ways in which strength was raised have pushed many builds by the way side."

 

The relevant section of my post is below:

1 hour ago, ABlueThingy said:

It's disingenuous to say that because we could steam roll then and we steam roll now that nothing has changed.  In the old days, post-ED and pre-IO,  you could steam roll because everyone had powers that were roughly on par with one another.  Blasters and scrappers could deal tons of damage but they couldn't take a hit, they needed a tank or controller or defender.  You didn't need *A* tank or *A* defender or *A* controller.  But you needed someone, if you wanted to do harder content.  If you wanted to steamroll easier content. 

 

You need to be able to kill the monsters before they kill you.  That means you need to make your team's DPS greater than the enemy regen.  And you need to do the inverse for your team. Scrappers and Blasters add raw numbers to the team DPS. Controllers and Def multiply those numbers in any of a dozen ways.  Tankers and Controllers functioned as an enemy DPS sink by forcing the damage onto a harder target and reducing the amount to just stoping their incoming damage entirely. Controllers/Defenders multiplied that effectiveness as well.

 

In X seconds, your team will run out of HP.  In Y seconds the enemy will run out.  Part of a team is getting X to be larger then Y.  It doesn't matter how.  That was the glory of CoH.  Either people raise X or lower Y through any of a billion ways.  Everyone had something they could offer to push those number around. And there was cross over and bleed, some blasters did debuffs and some scrappers could tank.  That's awesome, I love that part of the game. 

 

But the math has changed now.  The ways in which Status effects and buffs and to an extent debuffs help has been marginalized.  Not because they became less effective on their own mind you.  But when you can pile on so much damage that Y is down to 0.1 seconds there's no need to change X. 

 

Incarnates and IOs let people raise X, mechanically repalaceing the role in boosting X that used to go to tanks/support.  Soft capping, boosting self regen, tough/weave. Etc.  And Purples and mega set bonuses and Incarnate abilities have lowered Y to the point where you don't need force multipliers anymore. 

 

Hell, you don't even need different ways of GETTING to (X>Y) anymore.  I mean, I love that all the sets-- ok most of the sets-- feel different to use.  They each have their own playstyles and let you raise X or lower Y in their own little unique ways.  But now it's just, soft cap Def and let the AoEs rip, every one has a judgement.  Well, they have a judgement or they are irrelevant to Y.

 

This is the real threat of homogenization.

 

 

6 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

You almost never needed someone to help with harder content outside of Hamidon raids.  I know because I soloed quite a lot on my scrapper back in the day and soloed a few TFs here and there.  There were a lot people soloing TFs back then.  I remember the threads for it where they posted screenshots of their completion.  Other players were never a necessity for most content. 

This is, mostly, true.  There was specific builds and tricks you could do so any player could solo the vast, vast, vast majority of content.  Even most of the TFs could be solo'd post-ED and pre-IO.

 

But-- this is an important one now. Pre-IO, until the Envenomed Dagger and the Chemical Warhead, only a handfull of builds could solo the hardest content and it required a great deal of effort.  That's WHY people posted screenshots.  It was a challenge, it was hard.  There were some builds you could never do it on.  The math just wouldn't allow it.  Like that Mind/Emp I proposed.  No -regen, no -res, purple triangles, almost no damage.  They couldn't solo an AV.

 

Now, in a Post-IO and Post-Incarnate world?  Most power set combos can solo most TFs.  Even that Mind/Emp can get surprisingly far.  The power difference is staggering.  The potential power an individual can get has increased many fold from the old days.

 

6 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

You are assuming that any new content would just be increasing a decimal or two in the code and calling it a day.  There are any number of possibilities that can be done to add new mechanics to the game so something other than AoE would be required.  See the various kinds of Mitos and Hamidon where it is not just about raw damage.

 

I am not. I was making a point. A bit further beyond the part you quoted actually, the next line.  If you want to do something that invalidates AoE damage so much that pure AoE + softcap is no longer the meta build, which opening up the meta to more build types would do... you have nerfed AoE damage and building for the soft cap.

 

If we're going to nerf AoE damage then why don't we... just... nerf AoE damage.  Frankly I'm not even saying we should specifically nerf AoE damage, there's a lot of things to take into account here.  But if, *IF* AoE damage is the issue... why build some kind of Rube Golbergian mechanics to nerf it... just... nerf it.

 

 

 

[golstat2003]

3 hours ago, ShardWarrior said:

I do not thing PUGs today are any different than they were prior to sunset.  We absolutely never required the trinity on any team.  I specifically remember steamrolling Manticore, Sister Psyche, even Posi back in the day.  Even Hamidon was easy back then once we figured out the right strategy.  IOs play a part now in that they are more accessible.  Prior to sunset, most people did not even use them given the absurd prices on them in the AH.  This is a reason why I have suggested any new high level content should be designed for and balanced around IOs.  Someone suggested earlier to use Kallisti Wharf as a new level 50+ zone.  I think that is an excellent idea.  It is a great place to start fresh with all new enemy factions that can be tailored for higher powered builds. 

For reasons already stated in this thread balancing the game around IOs isn't realistic.

 

Higher level content sure, a full on rebalance of the game around IOs . . . you wouldn't see any new content or anything else till 2060.

[golstat2003]

To be clear I'm fine with new difficulty options. I am not fine with making the base game harder. I've said this in various other suggestion threads over the past two years. I am fine with a buffs to some support sets that need it. I do not agree that Support classes needs as much extreme help as some in this thread are stating. I am also fine with nerfs where needed. I am not fine with extreme nerfs that make us "need" this or that. 8 random players should continue to be able to form up in any composition to get missions done. Especially radio missions. Needing more support sets in harder high level content is fine. (Radio missions of council are sure as s%$# not high level content lol).

 

A re-balance around IOs isn't happening, we don't currently have the dev manpower for that. And I for one think it's better to spend dev time on new content, power-sets, new tfs, new iTrials, new incarnate powers, new costumes then wasting time on an IO balance that could take years to decades due to the side of the current team.

 

Let's keep our expectations realistic. This isn't paragon studios from live.

 

There I think I have a good summary of my position. Carry on. LOL

Edited September 27, 2020 by golstat2003

[ABlueThingy]

7 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

To be clear I'm fine with new difficulty options. I am not fine with making the base game harder. I've said this in various other suggestion threads over the past two years. I am fine with a buffs to some support sets that need it. I do not agree that Support classes needs as much extreme help as some in this thread are stating. I am also fine with nerfs where needed. I am not fine with extreme nerfs that make us "need" this or that. 8 random players should continue to be able to form up in any composition to get missions done. Especially radio missions. Needing more support sets in harder high level content is fine. (Radio missions of council are sure as shit not high level content lol).

 

A re-balance around IOs isn't happening, we don't currently have the dev manpower for that. And I for one think it's better to spend dev time on new content, power-sets, new tfs, new iTrials, new incarnate powers, new costumes then wasting time on an IO balance that could take years to decades due to the side of the current team.

 

To be fair, I'm pretty sure you could go in and swap all the +rech for -rech res and +def for +res Easily. You'd end up resolving a lot of the complaints on the pro-nerf side.  Suddenly you'd need more help if you intended to go around nuking all of creation with impunity in max level content.  Tanks and Def and Cont/Dom would be much more usable, they'd have to get aggro/buff you/lock down the spawns before you could blast away without being instantly counter-nuked.

 

...Of course if you did that I think 99% of the playerbase would riot. Frankly I wouldn't be very happy with that either.

 

7 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

Let's keep our expectations realistic. This isn't paragon studios from live.

 

Very true.

 

 

[golstat2003]

Just now, ABlueThingy said:

 

To be fair, I'm pretty sure you could go in and swap all the +rech for -rech res and +def for +res Easily. You'd end up resolving a lot of the complaints on the pro-nerf side.  Suddenly you'd need more help if you intended to go around nuking all of creation with impunity in max level content.  Tanks and Def and Cont/Dom would be much more usable, they'd have to get aggro/buff you/lock down the spawns before you could blast away without being instantly counter-nuked.

 

...Of course if you did that I think 99% of the playerbase would riot. Frankly I wouldn't be very happy with that either.

 

 

Very true.

 

 

Yeah that suggestion would be problematic. Since there are different levels of +recharge dependig on the level of IOs. I mean level as in reguar IOs versus, purples, versus attuned. It wouldn't be simple swap. They would have to evaluate ecah of them carefully and make sure they don't intro any major bugs. That doesn't sound simple at all.

[Peacemoon]

I haven’t posted for a while, but just want to say I’m watching HC with interest and what the devs have outlined in this thread (and others) is looking amazing. Keep up the great work!

 

[Haijinx]

6 hours ago, Lockpick said:

 

This happens in every game it seems.  The minority of power gamers come through and get really vocal that the game is to easy and the voice of the average players are not heard because they don't see a problem and aren't on the forums.

 

This is just the "Great Silent Majority" Argument writ MMO.  

 

And to be honest it is a fallacy whether or not you intended at such.  Its the my side is right because the masses agree with me argument.  Appeal to Popularity I think is the technical bit.