Game Balance & The Endgame

[Gobbledigook]

5 hours ago, FUBARczar said:

No I meant that Blasters sans their Nukes do more AoE damage than Dominators, it wasn't a typo. 

 

Procs work well for a lot of powers, and several blaster sets gave Holds, CC powers, and so on, so yes it is still a wash.  

 

Only certain sets have Max DPS including melee attacks, and many Blasters skip them for the safety of range w/o much of a hit.  For instance I often see one of the best blapper secondaries (Temporal Manipulation) being played at range only.  

 

A blaster will still do significantly more damage than a Dominator if Dominators received the same damage modifiers (a small bump) in reverse as I said here

 

 

Blaster CC is no where near Dom CC. A Dom will lockdown whole groups and bosses. Those AoE holds can be procced to great effect.

 

If temporal manipulation is being played at ranged only then it isn't a blapper.

 

Why are you using blasters as a dps comparison to Dom's? Even stalkers don't get the damage modifier you are talking about. Sentinels don't get anywhere close. Corruptors would cry for MORE DAMAGE probably.

 

You are completely undervaluing your CC and that is the major issue here.

 

I recommend you play a different AT like a blaster.

[Lockpick]

2 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

IMO the heyday for Dominators was around i19, around the incarnate system came around with the Alpha slot. They were the only squishy class with mezz protection other than Controllers who took Indom Will and Force Field/Sonic Resonance/Traps characters. Blast archetypes didn't have crashless nukes yet and Blasters didn't have sustains, but Doms had a full endurance bar refill from Domination. Without nukes, spawns took much longer to clear so good controls meant a lot. 

 

The first problems were starting to show though. The Level Shift mechanic was already beginning to make difficult content easier. The Alpha slot was beginning to make it much more feasible for most builds to run Punch/Tough/Weave. Enemies like Victorias in the iTrials were making melee as a squishy difficult. But IMO the class was still at its peak.

 

This isn't to say the game was perfectly balanced. A few classes of Brute and Scrapper, along with Fire/Kin Controllers dominated much of the end game space and could render a team mostly irrelevant.

 

A lot has changed since then. IMO the worst contributing factors currently:

• Level shifts - IMO the most destabilizing mechanic introduced to the game
• Lore pets doing more damage than entire actual characters
• Destiny
• The Hybrid slot's double damage ability 

 

FWIW I do happen to think the Alpha slot is well balanced. If the level shift, Judgment and Lore abilities went away tomorrow though I would leap for joy. Especially Level Shift. It has introduced more issues than any mechanic I can think of.

 

I don't know that I can argue with your points about the incarnates and level shifting against the current base content.  I will argue on your points about balancing.  There was every indication on the Live servers that the Devs were going to create harder content, so that the min/max builds with incarnates would have a challenge.  The iTrials were the first cut at this content and if the game had continued I am sure more content would have been delivered.

 

It seems to me the solution is creating more challenging content with appropriate rewards for those with min/max builds and incarnates.

 

1 hour ago, oedipus_tex said:

I can't even begin

 

 

I can't even begin to say how I'd fix the incarnate powers. 
 

IMO the way they should have been designed is you can only fire one after collecting a particular power up from an enemy, and that power up is only available against certain enemy types. E.G. War Walkers are known to drop Judgment charges.

 

The ship has long since sailed on that though. I'm curious what this development team, who I have a ton of respect for, choose to do with it.

 

If it was me opening a brand new server as lead developer I'd pull all those powers from the game until I could figure out what to do with them but 1) I am not lead developer on my own server and 2) its quite different to remove a power after players have been playing for a year versus removing it at server launch. I trust this team to do whats in the best interest of the game.

 

IMO, the problem isn't the powers; the problem is the lack of end game content balanced around the min/max builds and T4 Incarnates.  

 

Just for the sake of alignment imagine that in the next release there was going to be new content that was balanced around min/max builds and T4 Incarnates such as:

• Khallisti Wharf populated with new enemies
• 2 new iTrials
• Hard mode added to all TFs
• Updates to AE, so players can create new content that was balanced around min/max builds and T4 Incarnates

 

Would we still be having this conversation that has gone on 65 pages?  I expect we would all be in game playing the content as opposed to arguing about the game being to easy.  If you agree having content that was balanced around min/max builds and T4 Incarnates solves the problem then logically the problem isn't the powers.  It's the lack of high end content.

 

[oedipus_tex]

I think when people say Dominators are "like Blasters" what they mean is that when City of Villains was launched, if you had a Blaster-like concept for your villain, you had two main choices. You could be a Corruptor and focus on Range (the icons are even colored the same), or a Dominator and focus on the mix of blasts, blaps and cones in the Assault sets. It doesn't necessarily mean the numbers would match up. I think most of us agree Blasters should be outdamaging almost anything else in the game.

 

For example here is Dominator Psi Assault laid up next to Blaster Psi Blast and Psi Manipulation:

 

 

 

I think what most people are getting it is there is a point in the game where Dominators were much stronger relative to where they are now, but a lot of that has slipped away. They aren't unplayable, but they've lost a lot of ground that calls into question the value of trading so much away to be the "mezz protected squishy class with controls."

[Wavicle]

4 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

 

I think what most people are getting it is there is a point in the game where Dominators were much stronger relative to where they are now, but a lot of that has slipped away. They aren't unplayable, but they've lost a lot of ground that calls into question the value of trading so much away to be the "mezz protected squishy class with controls."

No. Dominators are quantitatively, unequivocally, stronger now than ever before.

 

 Only the relative value of damage and CC has changed. The problem is the content, not the powers.

[Mezmera]

Well I DO think the crashless nuke needs toned down.  Just like I see the same correlation for those asking for the aoe holds to be lowered from 240s to pretty much available for every mob just like that OP nuke.  

 

Leave the aoe hold as is, perma holding the map wouldn't be fun, create more parity with that nuke and there you have it.  If we're not gonna look at the nukes I'd still say fast charging aoe holds would be broken (as if the nukes aren't) so I'm more advocating for a slight uptick to a few damage types for doms.  All in all blasters would still far outdamage them still.  

[FUBARczar]

6 hours ago, Gobbledegook said:

Blaster CC is no where near Dom CC. A Dom will lockdown whole groups and bosses. Those AoE holds can be procced to great effect.

 

If temporal manipulation is being played at ranged only then it isn't a blapper.

 

Why are you using blasters as a dps comparison to Dom's? Even stalkers don't get the damage modifier you are talking about. Sentinels don't get anywhere close. Corruptors would cry for MORE DAMAGE probably.

 

You are completely undervaluing your CC and that is the major issue here.

 

I recommend you play a different AT like a blaster.

Wow, just wow...

 

I didn't say that Blasters have the ability to CC like a Dom, or anywhere close, I only said that they have such powers which can be proc'd the same as a Dom.  It was about damage not about actual CC.  It was about the ability to proc is a wash, is equal between the ATs, because you listed it as an advantage for Doms.  As if doms are the onlu ATs that can proc their powers...

 

What I said was one of the best Blapper sets (Temp. Manip.) is often played at range only, meaning players don't use the melee attacks.  I said the set is strong for the Blapper playstyle and that people still don't utilize it's strengths, it's full potential, it's melee attacks.  I did not say that blasters playing at range are Blappers.

 

From my extensive in-game testing Doms clear more slowly than all but Sentinels (excluding MMs, cause I don't play them enough to make a proper somparison), using those real in-game tests Doms seem in need of a slight boost to catch up with the pack (every other AT (except Sents and MMs)). 

 

Also Corruptors in my experience are on par with Scrappers, and exceed every AT except Brutes and Blasters. 

 

I am not undervaluing the CC.  CC is for staying alive not clearing.  Doms can survive well enough for a squishy, I think everything is fine except slight underperformance in DPS whether that is because of lack of damage, lack of buffs or lack of debuffs.  Considering those three options I think a modicum of damage would be the easiest.   I only suggested a tiny bump of .075 in Melee and .05 in range damage.  

 

Now you are just being flippant and surly.

[Gobbledigook]

2 hours ago, FUBARczar said:

Wow, just wow...

 

I didn't say that Blasters have the ability to CC like a Dom, or anywhere close, I only said that they have such powers which can be proc'd the same as a Dom.  It was about damage not about actual CC.  It was about the ability to proc is a wash, is equal between the ATs, because you listed it as an advantage for Doms.  As if doms are the onlu ATs that can proc their powers...

 

What I said was one of the best Blapper sets (Temp. Manip.) is often played at range only, meaning players don't use the melee attacks.  I said the set is strong for the Blapper playstyle and that people still don't utilize it's strengths, it's full potential, it's melee attacks.  I did not say that blasters playing at range are Blappers.

 

From my extensive in-game testing Doms clear more slowly than all but Sentinels (excluding MMs, cause I don't play them enough to make a proper somparison), using those real in-game tests Doms seem in need of a slight boost to catch up with the pack (every other AT (except Sents and MMs)). 

 

Also Corruptors in my experience are on par with Scrappers, and exceed every AT except Brutes and Blasters. 

 

I am not undervaluing the CC.  CC is for staying alive not clearing.  Doms can survive well enough for a squishy, I think everything is fine except slight underperformance in DPS whether that is because of lack of damage, lack of buffs or lack of debuffs.  Considering those three options I think a modicum of damage would be the easiest.   I only suggested a tiny bump of .075 in Melee and .05 in range damage.  

 

Now you are just being flippant and surly.

Wow oh Wow, i never said you did, i was just stating a fact. Chill!

 

 Yes a few Blaster sets have a single target hold.

 

How do you think Dom's are one of the best farmers? 

 

It is not a Blapper set it is just a blaster secondary. Blapper is a playstyle. Most but not all Blaster secondaries can be played that way.

 

If Dom's clear slowly then why are they farming +4x8 maps easily?

 

A kin Corruptor may be on par with a Scrapper but if the Scrapper has fulcrum also then they won't.

 

CC is for locking mobs down so they become no or little threat. Though some AoE holds can do some damage if procced. The abilty to lockdown mobs so they can not fight back and very high damage would be OTT.

 

I am not being anything i am stating the obvious and you are just choosing to be Delusional.

Edited October 7, 2020 by Gobbledegook

[Mezmera]

17 minutes ago, Gobbledegook said:

Wow oh Wow, i never said you did, i was just stating a fact. Chill!

 

 Yes a few Blaster sets have a single target hold.

 

How do you think Dom's are one of the best farmers? 

 

It is not a Blapper set it is just a blaster secondary. Blapper is a playstyle. Most but not all Blaster secondaries can be played that way.

 

If Dom's clear slowly then why are they farming +4x8 maps easily?

 

A kin Corruptor may be on par with a Scrapper but if the Scrapper has fulcrum also then they won't.

 

CC is for locking mobs down so they become no or little threat. Though some AoE holds can do some damage if procced. The abilty to lockdown mobs so they can not fight back and very high damage would be OTT.

 

I am not being anything i am stating the obvious and you are just choosing to be Delusional.

Dom's aren't synonymous with farming especially since the nerf to psi, right now the most effective would be plant/good aoe dot.  Same with blasters but you'll still see Ice/Fire blasters farming well. 

 

Farming on a dom is fun just like it would be on a blaster but it still can be a precarious thing to do.  Altogether the better power sets in most any AT I'd venture to say could farm effectively especially a well built one with that focus.  

 

You'll see other specialized AT's farming likely because they want more of a challenge than a /Fire brute just to say they can.  

Edited October 7, 2020 by Mezmera

[Gobbledigook]

23 minutes ago, Mezmera said:

Dom's aren't synonymous with farming especially since the nerf to psi, right now the most effective would be plant/good aoe dot.  Same with blasters but you'll still see Ice/Fire blasters farming well. 

 

Farming on a dom is fun just like it would be on a blaster but it still can be a precarious thing to do.  Altogether the better power sets in most any AT I'd venture to say could farm effectively especially a well built one with that focus.  

 

You'll see other specialized AT's farming likely because they want more of a challenge than a /Fire brute just to say they can.  

Try farming on a sentinel. It isn't good. Or do a +4x8 on a MM.

 

A blaster can Hover just like a Dom, but a Dom can also negate a lot of damage with mass CC that can actually damage also.

 

The point is that Doms are in a decent spot. They may need a few tweaks here and there though.

 

The content is the problem when CC isn't need anymore because its a steamroll. My experience with CC AT's is they don't know how to CC effectively anyway. Hitting the AoE CC when the mobs are spread everywhere is not the way to go really, let the Tanker do his job first.

 

Why not ask for a Pet buff etc instead that would benefit both CC AT's? something that is actually unique to the class or even tweak some of the primary CC damage slightly. That would also benefit the controller, instead of I want MORE damage using Blasters as the comparison which are not anything like a Dom.

 

Quoting you but not only responding to you.

Edited October 7, 2020 by Gobbledegook

[Naraka]

22 hours ago, FUBARczar said:

I started playing before the CoV release.  And have played stalkers since CoV went live.  Hmm all of the Stalkers I have played to 50: (Live) EM/SR, Spines/WP, Elec/Ninja, Claws/EA, Spine/Elec, StJ/Ice, Staff/WP (HC) Rad/SD, Psi/Bio, Psi/Rad, Elec/Fire, DM/Ice, Staff/Ice, Staff/WP(2), Ice/Rad, Savage/DA, StJ/Inv, Rad/DA

 

Sweet. Do you have your CoV Stalker Bachelors Degee then? 

 

FYI, listing your credentials means about as much to me as me listing my credentials means to you. 

 

22 hours ago, FUBARczar said:

Thanks for being so dismissive, but what I said and what you said are not mutually exclusive.  My SG and other SGs I played with regularly did not have players like you describe above.  You are describing the low-end early stalker players, and I am describing mid to higher level players.  I remember specifically many people saying wow, after teaming with my Spine/WP and my Elec/Ninja specifically, I didn't know Stalkers were that good, or that Stalkers could do AoE, etc. etc.

Then perhaps there's your blind spot. I was one of those peasants that played mostly Pugs and ran with RP groups in pocket D. How I and some players actively played their character is a whole different story from how people advised or utilized others or their characters. 

 

As for being good at AoE by showing off Electric melee, that was quite a while after the damage was done. The strict teaming setups would often drop Stalkers pretty quick even after getting the Elec Melee set due to bad reputation. Dual Blades was another alright AoE set earlier on but the deserved reputation for low AoE was a particular sticking point in why people downplayed the AT, kicked them from teams and recommended Brute/Scrapper. There's no reason to be coy, Stalkers were pretty bad and Scrappers were mostly better with the only thing in the ATs favor being their burst damage pushing them ahead thanks to AS... And then being lapped by Scraps if the fight drug on too long. 

 

This was all demonstrated again and again on the forums which is why so many different changes were pushed out over time. 

 

I think the point of contention is your pointing to a specific period which has nothing to do with what I initially was even talking about. I know how strong the AT is, I know certain builds can stack the AoEs and I know how defensively solid one can be built but none of that is relevant to early Stalker which is what I'm talking about. So check the context because you are(continuously) wasting my time. 

 

22 hours ago, FUBARczar said:

LOL    The only premise for this, is the comparison of AS and Snipes.  Pretty much everything else is Scrapper.  So 5% Blaster b/c of AS/Snipe, 15% unique b/c of Hide, 80% Scrapper.  You realize that Scrappers are about Burst and sustained damage similar to Blasters right?  A huge difference is the amount of damage that Stalkers and Scrappers can take compared to Blasters, and being melee, and basically sharing inherents, and sharing primaries, and sharing secondaries, and sharing similar capabilities, and similar roles, and so on.  But Sure Stalkers really are villain Blasters, ok you are right.

 

Wow I better quote and comment and every little thing you say, otherwise you'll accuse me of mincing words.  

 

Scrappers are DPS. Since their crits are unreliable and as much as you feel hyping them to make your argument or whatever meta-build you made to solo the entire game, that's all irrelevant to what the AT was made to be and how it is balanced among the other ATs. Blasters are burst and DPS because they didn't have self defense. Scrappers are DPS and off-tank. 

 

And I keep saying you're mincing words because the whole reason I said "AS could be compared to a ST nuke *OR* a melee snipe" is for [expletives] who would bitch at someone else's opinion about their view of a power so preemptively put up an alternative. 

22 hours ago, FUBARczar said:

Look here you say, "I didn't compare AS to a nuke" and the you say, "I labled it a SINGLE TARGET nuke" in the same sentence.  So you didn't compare AS to a nuke (ST or not), but you did and even "labled it a SINGLE TARGET nuke."  Honestly it's difficult to discuss things with you when you contradict yourself in the same sentence.  But just to be clear you clearly did compare AS to a nuke, "One could also make the argument that Assassin's Strike is similar to a ST nuke, or a melee snipe..." 

So I guess you were also saying that a Blasters' Snipe is similar to an ST Nuke.  I could be wrong, but I think you may be the first person to make such a comparison. 

 

And this is the main reason why I say you're mincing words. You tell me a power in the game that is an actual ST nuke. You can't because one doesn't exist. The point of combining the terms is to create the idea which it obviously did because you must have an idea of what one would be in your opinion. The hilarious thing is you feel my description is unwarranted but you haven't bothered to put forth a definition of what even a nuke is because it would instantly invalidate your complaints. 

 

You mince words but you're bad at it. 

Edited October 7, 2020 by Naraka

[Mezmera]

45 minutes ago, Gobbledegook said:

Try farming on a sentinel. It isn't good. Or do a +4x8 on a MM.

 

A blaster can Hover just like a Dom, but a Dom can also negate a lot of damage with mass CC that can actually damage also.

 

The point is that Doms are in a decent spot. They may need a few tweaks here and there though.

 

The content is the problem when CC isn't need anymore because its a steamroll. My experience with CC AT's is they don't know how to CC effectively anyway. Hitting the AoE CC when the mobs are spread everywhere is not the way to go really, let the Tanker do his job first.

 

Why not ask for a Pet buff etc instead that would benefit both CC AT's? something that is actually unique to the class or even tweak some of the primary CC damage slightly. That would also benefit the controller, instead of I want MORE damage using Blasters as the comparison which are not anything like a Dom.

 

Quoting you but not only responding to you.

I did say most.  Why be a sentinel when dps is life and they get blaster hand-me-downs.  So yes you're likely not going to see Sentinels, Stalkers (they're ST focused), Defenders, MM's, Controllers and maybe Corruptors.  There would be a few exceptions in those, same with most doms and blasters.  

 

Doms ARE in a decent spot I agree for the most part.  Yes tweaks here and there maybe.  But based on the whole point of this topic if we're going to go around nerfing things like TW and PPM (Which will affect doms quite a bit, more so than most blasters) then shouldn't we be having a looksie at one of the main culprits for those steamroll teams, the almighty crashless nuke?

 

The potential is there to play doms however you like.  For instance why wait for a tank when you could be the tank.  I'm usually always the first one into the mob locking them right all in place or herding them into a nice little pack for my follow up control and pbaoe damage.  If you're playing it to their potential a dom plays very much similar to a blaster.  

 

Controllers are the type to sit back and spam heals/buffs/debuffs along with some control and damage.  Doms are very much try to control instantly as much as you can and then get in their face with that damage.  I'm not against animation times and scaling damage being adjusted for controls nor having a look at pets.  Like you said though CC isn't as needed because dps is king so those tweaks alone likely won't make them all the more attractive to get familiar with.  

[Gobbledigook]

12 minutes ago, Mezmera said:

I did say most.  Why be a sentinel when dps is life and they get blaster hand-me-downs.  So yes you're likely not going to see Sentinels, Stalkers (they're ST focused), Defenders, MM's, Controllers and maybe Corruptors.  There would be a few exceptions in those, same with most doms and blasters.  

 

Doms ARE in a decent spot I agree for the most part.  Yes tweaks here and there maybe.  But based on the whole point of this topic if we're going to go around nerfing things like TW and PPM (Which will affect doms quite a bit, more so than most blasters) then shouldn't we be having a looksie at one of the main culprits for those steamroll teams, the almighty crashless nuke?

 

The potential is there to play doms however you like.  For instance why wait for a tank when you could be the tank.  I'm usually always the first one into the mob locking them right all in place or herding them into a nice little pack for my follow up control and pbaoe damage.  If you're playing it to their potential a dom plays very much similar to a blaster.  

 

Controllers are the type to sit back and spam heals/buffs/debuffs along with some control and damage.  Doms are very much try to control instantly as much as you can and then get in their face with that damage.  I'm not against animation times and scaling damage being adjusted for controls nor having a look at pets.  Like you said though CC isn't as needed because dps is king so those tweaks alone likely won't make them all the more attractive to get familiar with.  

I understand where you are coming from.....but i think there needs to be other changes to PPM and content etc first as you say. An empath Defender could ask for the same as heals/buffs aren't needed in steamroll content either only damage buffs or Debuffs to speed kill time up.

 

I just don't think the answer is for all AT's to be Damage classes also, which the Dom is not that bad at really.

[Mezmera]

30 minutes ago, Gobbledegook said:

I understand where you are coming from.....but i think there needs to be other changes to PPM and content etc first as you say. An empath Defender could ask for the same as heals/buffs aren't needed in steamroll content either only damage buffs or Debuffs to speed kill time up.

 

I just don't think the answer is for all AT's to be Damage classes also, which the Dom is not that bad at really.

Hence tone down the crashless nuke if we're going to be nerfing PPM and other avenues of damage.  That by default would buff the "lower" damage AT's.  

[Leogunner]

On 10/4/2020 at 7:10 PM, FUBARczar said:

 

 

this started with a poster stating, "For many reasons, I would love it if IO sets were simply removed from the game. " not that they are good but presented new imbalances or whatever but you didn't bother to go back and read what was said before apparently.  

 

 

But they and many others also acknowledge that large balance changes won't happen and would still leave a power vacuum in its place to be filled by something else.  Just because someone doesn't explicitly state the good points doesn't mean are wholly against them.  I'd say, people overall like that you can turn a "meh" build into a great build thanks to IOs.  The problem is obviously the extreme cases that are hurting balance.  Further still, it wouldn't be all that bad if said extreme cases were rather rare, but you'd be stretching the truth if you tried to tell me moderate-to-highend builds are rare.

 

On 10/4/2020 at 7:10 PM, FUBARczar said:

It's not that their differing viewpoint was silly because I think differently.  Fretting over IOs which are not mandatory is silly.  It's silly because a player can opt out.  I have even seen people like T the Tank on Excel Vet lvl 100 with ZERO IO bonuses.  Play the game how ever you want. 

I guess we're all fretting over here.  Okay guys, let's pack it in.  @FUBARczar is telling us we're fretting and apparently that's bad, especially if you don't want to be called silly.

 

If I'm fretting over IOs, you're fretting over people talking about IOs.  Are you not sillier then?

 

On 10/4/2020 at 7:10 PM, FUBARczar said:

Corruptors do completely outpace Doms as I and many others have observed over and over again here.  Sentinels on the other hand...there's your bottom feeder.

 

Is that before or after they neutralize foes with their superior buffs/debuffs?  While there are some outlier buff sets, most of them can't buff themselves so rely on others for support and I'm sure they can become completely self sufficient with their comprehensive debuffs....

 

Oh wait, you point to an all Corruptor team?  Well dang, where have I been.  I thought support sets were *SUPPOSED* to be the equalizer with regards to pacing.  Isn't that what we're all talking about?  It's always been said that a full team of defenders is pretty much the pinnacle.  I know that's not true now but I would suppose Corruptors should be right on their tail at least.  Should *A* Corruptor outpace *A* Dominator?  Depends on how safe that corruptor is compared.  Should a *GROUP* of Corruptors outpace a *GROUP* of Dominators?  You better believe it.  I didn't think that was a controversial talking point.

[Naraka]

12 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

I can't even begin

 

 

I can't even begin to say how I'd fix the incarnate powers. 
 

IMO the way they should have been designed is you can only fire one after collecting a particular power up from an enemy, and that power up is only available against certain enemy types. E.G. War Walkers are known to drop Judgment charges.

 

The ship has long since sailed on that though. I'm curious what this development team, who I have a ton of respect for, choose to do with it.

 

If it was me opening a brand new server as lead developer I'd pull all those powers from the game until I could figure out what to do with them but 1) I am not lead developer on my own server and 2) its quite different to remove a power after players have been playing for a year versus removing it at server launch. I trust this team to do whats in the best interest of the game.

I mean, they could have certainly made the incarnate system be more "customizing your character" kind of a deal by making you choose only some of the powers. Like if you only had 3 incarnate levels and the Alpha slot took up one, Judgements and Interface took up 1.5, Hybrid 1.75 and Destiny/Lore took up 2. Then you'd have to choose which of the power's were more fitting for the character and maybe even unlocking all during incarnate trials. 

 

 

[Gobbledigook]

26 minutes ago, Mezmera said:

Hence tone down the crashless nuke if we're going to be nerfing PPM and other avenues of damage.  That by default would buff the "lower" damage AT's.  

Possibly. 

[UpandAtom]

Masterminds were great fun as a pet class and one of the best i've ever fiddled with, but yeah they were one that basically got shelved when you'd gotten them to 50 in CoX since they're slow and steady but nowhere near being a best endgame AT.

It makes sense that Paragon wasn't devoting so much resources into making special Incarnate stuff for a single AT--a Villain AT, double trouble combo!--but yes they certainly did seriously neglect MM issues there.

I wish an Incarnate MM had gotten a button which could just instantly assemble and train all their pets. Back in live, with how 90% of the player's time was spent on summoning and training ONE-BY-ONE, that really would've been a mega-QoL boon. If it's at all possible that's a QoL i'd love to see. Like, you're a level 50 MM? Boom here's a new Inherent that can call all the rent-a-thugs with a click on a 4 minute unrechargable cooldown or something.

Edited October 8, 2020 by UpandAtom

[Ralathar44]

21 hours ago, Lockpick said:

I don't know that anyone is advocating for characters to be OP for the content.  I have argued that the content is fine as is for the core game

That is a contradiction.  The current status quo is some ATs/powersets can solo content at difficulty levels intended for teams and some cannot.  Some ATs/powersets are far more valuable than others in high levle content as well due to the base game mechanics of how difficulty scales, what IO sets are available, and what aspects of your character (dmg/to-hit/defense/resist/recharge/control/debuffs) you can boost huge amounts and which you can only boost minor amounts.  Unfortunately these are almost exclusively the same ATs powersets benefiting with mostly the same losing out in both scenarios.

 

21 hours ago, Lockpick said:

people should use existing mechanics to make harder content for their min/max builds with IO sets and Incarnates.  I also think the devs should focus their attention on making it easier for players to create this harder content with appropriate rewards.

Harder content will not solve the core issues, it will only make the gap wider between those powersets and ATs that benefit much more from the current framework.  IOs and Incarnates do not benefit all power sets and ATs equally or even close.  Some it makes into unstoppable gods, others merely become strong.  Similarly difficulty scaling does not affect all powersets and ATs equally.

In all honesty I do hope they take the path you speak of regarding higher difficulty content because all it will do is shine a brighter spotlight on the existing problems making them too visible to ignore as the gap widens even further.

Edited October 8, 2020 by Ralathar44

[oedipus_tex]

14 hours ago, Wavicle said:

No. Dominators are quantitatively, unequivocally, stronger now than ever before.

 

 Only the relative value of damage and CC has changed. The problem is the content, not the powers.

 

IMO you're splitting hairs. People compare archetypes against each other. There was a time when if you wanted a squishy with mezz protection and the ability to mezz bosses, Dominator was the way to go. This somewhat justified rolling a character who wasn't a force multiplier who did mediocre damage. The archetype had a run where it was more attractive than currently.

 

Now that CC is more widely available and less useful and anyone can get mezz protection, rolling a Dom is harder to justify. Fixing it doesn't necessarily mean adding more damage. It could mean updating the content. But updating the Dominator ATO to something more useful would be a good start..

Edited October 8, 2020 by oedipus_tex

[oedipus_tex]

Question for the numbers people: I think most of us agree that the all of the single target Hold, single target Immob, and AoE Immob powers in the Control sets should do identical damage (except Fire, which should do more). That would mean either the damage scale of the power would be adjusted to the animation, or the the animation time match across powers.

 

My question is:

• If this is done, what is the appropriate animation time and damage for these powers?
• Does this value allow a Dominator who takes a melee-heavy Assault set to fill out a ranged attack chain for difficult fights sufficiently to cover that weakness? 

 

Here's the current anim time for the Hold powers:

• Dark: 1.8
• Earth: 2.2
• Electric: 2.3
• Fire: 1.32
• Gravity: 1.98
• Ice: 2.1
• Mind: 1.32
• Plant: 2.2

 

I assume we don't want to nerf Fire or Mind. So should a 1.32 animation time be the target goal? Is that number fair or unfair to blast archetypes like Blasters, Corruptors, and Defenders?

Edited October 8, 2020 by oedipus_tex

[Gulbasaur]

5 hours ago, UpandAtom said:

Masterminds were great fun as a pet class and one of the best i've ever fiddled with, but yeah they were one that basically got shelved when you'd gotten them to 50 in CoX since they're slow and steady but nowhere near being a best endgame AT.

I feel the same way about Kheldians... they're fun to level but when you factor in incarnates and IO sets, there's just nothing that really sets them aside. Back before IOs, they were unique in that they could do damage from range and also tank. Now, we've got blasters that can do that.

[Lockpick]

2 hours ago, Ralathar44 said:

That is a contradiction. 

 

I don't see the contradiction.  OP is pretty subjective and everyone has a different take on it.  My take is there might be a few outliers that can be considered OP and that balance adjustments should be very rare to sets and ATs.  Even the TW/Bio Scrapper that seems to be OP doesn't seem like a big deal to me because there will always be one AT and power set combination that is stacked at the top.  If you nerf TW/Bio then something else will rise to the top.  That being said, I am fine with adjustments that are deemed necessary, although I reserve the right to complain if I don't like the adjustment.

 

2 hours ago, Ralathar44 said:

The current status quo is some ATs/powersets can solo content at difficulty levels intended for teams and some cannot. 

 

So what?  There are always going to be some ATs and sets that do better at some aspects of the game.  If you take the time to build high end min/max builds you should be able to do high end min/max feats.  I'm more concerned about negatively impacting the players that don't take the time to make these high end builds and want to make sure they can play the current content.

 

2 hours ago, Ralathar44 said:

Harder content will not solve the core issues, it will only make the gap wider between those powersets and ATs that benefit much more from the current framework. 

 

Harder content will solve the challenge that some people seem to have that the game is to easy.  If you make a hard mode TF then there will be a greater need for the control that some people believe is no longer relevant.  At the end of the day, damage is always going to be primary because it is damage that defeats enemies.  I'm having a hard time understanding why non-damage AT / sets are expecting to perform like damage ATs / sets.

 

If you want to perform like a damage AT / set then pick that AT / set.  I don't pick an Illusion / Rad controller and then get upset that I can't push out AoE damage like my Savage / SR Stalker.  I don't pick a AR / Traps Corruptor and then get upset that I cannot match the damage of my AR / Devices Blaster.  There are going to be things that the AR / Traps Corruptor can do better than my AR / Devices Blaster and vice versa.

 

I wouldn't pick a Dominator and then be upset that I can't push damage like a Blaster.  Makes no sense to me, but everyone is entitled to their opinions.

 

[Lockpick]

59 minutes ago, Gulbasaur said:

I feel the same way about Kheldians... they're fun to level but when you factor in incarnates and IO sets, there's just nothing that really sets them aside. Back before IOs, they were unique in that they could do damage from range and also tank. Now, we've got blasters that can do that.

Blasters can tank?  I was under the impression some of the Kheldians could get 85% resists?  No Blaster is getting to that level of resist and I would be surprised if Khedlians can push the same level of ranged damage as a Blaster.

[FUBARczar]

12 hours ago, Leogunner said:

The problem is obviously the extreme cases that are hurting balance.  Further still, it wouldn't be all that bad if said extreme cases were rather rare, but you'd be stretching the truth if you tried to tell me moderate-to-highend builds are rare.

honestly curious, what are some of the extreme cases (besides TW/Bio)?

 

12 hours ago, Leogunner said:

Is that before or after they neutralize foes with their superior buffs/debuffs?  While there are some outlier buff sets, most of them can't buff themselves so rely on others for support and I'm sure they can become completely self sufficient with their comprehensive debuffs....

 

Oh wait, you point to an all Corruptor team?  Well dang, where have I been.  I thought support sets were *SUPPOSED* to be the equalizer with regards to pacing.  Isn't that what we're all talking about?  It's always been said that a full team of defenders is pretty much the pinnacle.  I know that's not true now but I would suppose Corruptors should be right on their tail at least.  Should *A* Corruptor outpace *A* Dominator?  Depends on how safe that corruptor is compared.  Should a *GROUP* of Corruptors outpace a *GROUP* of Dominators?  You better believe it.  I didn't think that was a controversial talking point.

Well the post that was linked listed the results for 4man, same AT runs, but the results are similar for Duos and Trios.  To me the results show some concept of balance.  4-man Blasters, Corruptors, Defenders, Stalkers, Scrappers (non-TW), and Tanks all finish within a 2 minute 24 second window from 23:59 to 26:23.  They are all capable of performing well.  It is a setting where each AT performs to all of its own strengths and weaknesses, with out another AT covering its weaknesses.

 

[Gulbasaur]

1 hour ago, Lockpick said:

Blasters can tank?  I was under the impression some of the Kheldians could get 85% resists?  No Blaster is getting to that level of resist and I would be surprised if Khedlians can push the same level of ranged damage as a Blaster.

They can hit 45% defences, which back before the IO power creep was Tanker-tier levels of protection. That's what I meant, really. 

 

IO sets have flattened a lot of the differences in archetypes, particularly at end-game. The epic ATs were once unique in being able to do decent ranged damage and also survive decently well. Now, it's fairly easy to build up defences on an archetype with no armour set that once a tanker would have been jealous of. 

 

Support sets used to have a much stronger role in the game, but now a lot of what they achieved can be done solo through procs and bonuses. 

 

What I'd really like to see is some enemy groups that work against the AoE dogpile meta - give up enemies that you have to mez (like in the Hamidon encounter) and enemies that get stronger when you tightly pack them all on or have stacking AoE debuffs. There needs to be an option for every playstyle, while at the moment the end game is very strongly stacked towards AoE damage, no knockback, no healers needed gameplay and that's fine for sometimes but there needs to be an option B as well, partly for build and playstyle diversity but also it's a bit stale.

Edited October 8, 2020 by Gulbasaur