Focused Feedback: Trick Arrow Revamp

[Jacke]

@Bopper, I understand the problem and agree with you.  So many settings and effects only have a small range that isn't meh or overkill.  And then there's adding new things in.  But after reading this....

 

36 minutes ago, Bopper said:

Way too powerful. You get a league of 40 trick arrows and watch every challenge in the game get killed thanks to stacks of Acid Arrow and someone attacking with Brawl

 

...all I thought of is enabling all content to allow a full league, then get 47 Trick Arrow toons and a Brute with Brawl (like the famous Brawling Humiliator back pre-2012) and have them slowly work through the game's entire content.  Need that many Trick Arrow toons more because of attrition due to laughter (and likely boredom too). 🙂

 

But that example illustrates the problem.  Tune the -Max HP too low and progress would stop on the first mission where a Brute's Brawl wasn't sufficient (Brawling Humiliator was a street sweeper only).  Then as the -Max HP increase in magnitude, mission clearance is faster.  Until the Brute can one-shot Reichsman on the final Dr Kahn mission. 🙂

 

Seriously, I may disagree with some of the change choices, but I do know how hard it is to find choices that will work both functionally and for the player base.  Some of my comments are pushback desiring and supporting something different.  Others are figuring out the true implications of how things are currently.

 

 

Edited November 13, 2020 by Jacke

[csr]

9 minutes ago, Bopper said:

It certainly is a force multiplier power. However some of the stacking is likely overkill anyways. EMP arrow with Acid Arrow will single handedly take away a Level 50 AV's regeneration for 45s. The To-Hit debuff, if it worked fully, likely won't matter in most content where softcap is already commonly achieved. That mostly leaves endurance drain as an avenue of force multiplying which may or may not be of interest to PvE'ers. 

 

*edit, just to show what I meant by single handedly flooring an even con AV's regen.

-500% x 1.40 (defender AA) x (1.00 - 0.85) = -105% regen debuff

AVs don't resist the Regen Res Debuff in any way?

[Bopper]

4 minutes ago, csr said:

AVs don't resist the Regen Res Debuff in any way?

They do, thats the -0.85 in the equation. That represents the 85% debuff resistance of the original 500% debuff that EMP arrow provides for 45s.

 

But, my example of flooring a level 50 solo is a bit unfair as I am purposely avoiding the purple patch. If I were to show you numbers of a level 54 AV (+3 con) with EMP Arrow and Acid Arrow, you could see where stacking another Trick Arrow would come in handy. If that interests you, I can show the math on it. 

Edited November 13, 2020 by Bopper

[csr]

10 minutes ago, Bopper said:

They do, thats the -0.85 in the equation. That represents the 85% debuff resistance of the original 500% debuff that EMP arrow provides for 45s.

 

But, my example of flooring a level 50 solo is a bit unfair as I am purposely avoiding the purple patch. If I were to show you numbers of a level 54 AV (+3 con) with EMP Arrow and Acid Arrow, you could see where stacking another Trick Arrow would come in handy. If that interests you, I can show the math on it. 

That's not what I meant.  But I see the point.  You just reordered the equation from what I was thinking of.  The Regen Debuff Res cuts the Acid Arrow from 40% to 6% which reduced the Regen Res from 85% to 79% and gives the same 105% final result.  500% * (1 - 85% + 40% * (1 - 85%)).  It was that second 85% - the resist of the Acid Arrow -Special - that I was asking about.

Edited November 13, 2020 by csr

[Jacke]

19 minutes ago, Bopper said:

But, my example of flooring a level 50 solo is a bit unfair as I am purposely avoiding the purple patch. If I were to show you numbers of a level 54 AV (+3 con) with EMP Arrow and Acid Arrow, you could see where stacking another Trick Arrow would come in handy. If that interests you, I can show the math on it. 

 Purple Patch info in the Wiki https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Purple_Patch

 

says being +3 means the debuffs will be reduced to 65% of the even-con value.  I believe those factors multiply together, so with 85% debuff resistance, that's

( 1 - 0.85 ) x ( 0.65 ) x 500% = 0.15 x 0.65 x 500% = 48.75%

So about half of the regen is removed.  I think 2 Trick Arrows might additive (on shaky ground, I know some are additive, some are multiplied), so that would be removing 97.5% of the regen.

 

Not sure if this is right, but adding in Acid Arrow with -40% debuff on regen debuff resistance (say that 3 times fast!) ups that 48.75% to 68.25%.

 

And I don't have a good set of info on enemy Limits (https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Limits mostly covers PCs), but I think the minimum for regen is zero.  And getting say Reichsman to 31.75% or better 2.5% of his regen helps a lot (Radiation Emission's Lingering Radiation is 500% base).

 

WRONG!  @csr has it right.  Working....

 

'Course Reichsman's still a big ol' bag of hitpoints that still has to be emptied even at low regen....

Edited November 13, 2020 by Jacke

[Bopper]

2 minutes ago, csr said:

That's not what I meant.  But I see the point.  You just reordered the equation from what I was thinking of.  The Regen Debuff Res cuts the Acid Arrow from 40% to 6% which reduced the Regen Res from 85% to 79% and gives the same 105% final result.  500% * (1 - 85% + 40% * (1 - 85%)).  It was that second 85% I was asking about.

Gotcha, yeah ...I try to simplify the numbers as much as possible. The 40% debuff resistance debuff from acid arrow is similar to a 40% damage resistance debuff. A 40% damage resistance debuff effectively increases your final damage by 40%, same thing with debuffs and debuff resistance debuffs. So I simplify it. If you want to apply the purple patch, you can still do what I did as so:
Final = 500% x PP x (1 + 0.40 x PP) x (1.00 - 0.85)

[Bopper]

1 minute ago, Jacke said:

 Purple Patch info in the Wiki https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Purple_Patch

 

says being +3 means the debuffs will be reduced to 65% of the even-con value.  I believe those factors multiply together, so with 85% debuff resistance, that's

( 1 - 0.85 ) x ( 0.65 ) x 500% = 0.15 x 0.65 x 500% = 48.75%

So about half of the regen is removed.  I think 2 Trick Arrows might additive (on shaky ground, I know some are additive, some are multiplied), so that would be removing 97.5% of the regen.

 

Not sure if this is right, but adding in Acid Arrow with -40% debuff on regen debuff resistance (say that 3 times fast!) ups that 48.75% to 68.25%.

 

And I don't have a good set of info on enemy Limits (https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Limits mostly covers PCs), but I think the minimum for regen is zero.  And getting say Reichsman to 31.75% or better 2.% of his regen helps a lot (Radiation Emission's Lingering Radiation is 500% base).

 

'Course Reichsman's still a big ol' bag of hitpoints that still has to be emptied even at low regen....

Keep in mind, Acid Arrow also would be impacted by the purple patch. 

 

For those who are curious, here is what a single TA would do against a +3 AV (level 54), which comes with 87% resistance to debuffs. You will be interested in the bottom right value that shows a 53.24% debuff.

 

When you add in the 2nd trick arrow, you achieve the following: The 128.44% floors them. In fact, you only need 1 AA to floor them as the 1000% regen debuff and 40% resistance to regen debuff would put you at 106.47% (not shown).

[Jacke]

6 minutes ago, Bopper said:

Final = 500% x PP x (1 + 0.40 x PP) x (1.00 - 0.85)

So at +3 with PP being 65%, that's

 

Final = 500% x 0.65 x (1 + 0.40 x 0.65) x (1.00 - 0.85)
      = 500% x 0.65 x (1 + 0.26) x 0.15
      = 500% x 0.65 x 1.26 x 0.15
      =  61.425% regen debuff

 

EDIT: And @Bopper's really rolling out the numbers.... 🙂

Edited November 13, 2020 by Jacke

[Bopper]

1 minute ago, Jacke said:

So at +3 with PP being 65%, that's

 

Final = 500% x 0.65 x (1 + 0.40 x 0.65) x (1.00 - 0.85)
      = 500% x 0.65 x (1 + 0.26) x 0.15
      = 500% x 0.65 x 1.26 x 0.15
      =  61.425% regen debuff

 

Absolutely, that is correct. However in that scenario, you would be a level 47 character going against a level 50 AV. But still, your math is correct.

[Bopper]

7 minutes ago, Jacke said:

EDIT: And @Bopper's really rolling out the numbers.... 🙂

I can't take too much credit, I made a calculator months ago for solving these types of problems (and to do so quickly). You're welcome to use it, a link to my tools/calculators is in my signature block.

Edited November 13, 2020 by Bopper

[Jacke]

@Bopper, are two TA with their own EMP Arrows and Acid Arrows (do the Acid Arrows each buff both EMP Arrows...?), are their individual debuffs straight additive?

 

Of course, that's only for 45s out of...5 minute recharge, say 95% Recharge slotted, totally number-out-of-a-hat 105% global recharge, for 200% recharge, so 100s recharge, tiny cast times, so about under 45% uptime of the debuff.

 

Which is why this is hard to get the numbers right.  Even if the two TA toons debuffs are additive, likely the better tactics is to alternate their debuffs and debuff buffs to get near 90% uptime on 61% Regen debuff.  But that sort of coordination is hard....

[Wavicle]

1 minute ago, Jacke said:

@Bopper, are two TA with their own EMP Arrows and Acid Arrows (do the Acid Arrows each buff both EMP Arrows...?), are their individual debuffs straight additive?

 

Of course, that's only for 45s out of...5 minute recharge, say 95% Recharge slotted, totally number-out-of-a-hat 105% global recharge, for 200% recharge, so 100s recharge, tiny cast times, so about under 45% uptime of the debuff.

 

Which is why this is hard to get the numbers right.  Even if the two TA toons debuffs are additive, likely the better tactics is to alternate their debuffs and debuff buffs to get near 90% uptime on 61% Regen debuff.  But that sort of coordination is hard....

But if achieved, a sign of very good players

[Jacke]

4 minutes ago, Bopper said:

I can't take too much credit, I made a calculator months ago for solving these types of problems (and to do so quickly). You're welcome to use it, a link to my tools/calculators is in my signature block.

A long time ago, I did protection spreadsheets where I could plug in the numbers to see how well various combinations of Def and Res (numbers from Mids with a bit of checking) worked to mitigate damage rates and spikes.  Interesting things I learned there.  Now I kind of just wing it (again using Mids numbers and checking a bit). 🙂   And those spreadsheets aren't as complex as the one you made.

Edited November 13, 2020 by Jacke

[csr]

1 hour ago, Bopper said:

If you don't need it in your build, skip it. You don't need to take all 9 powers in a powerset. For those that see the value of the power will take it. But as it sits right now, it needs no adjustments. The only adjustment needed doesn't pertain to the power, rather the default settings of ranked enemies. But that will require future work, so not appropriate at this time.

Perhaps.  I see the value as an end-game anti-AV/GM tool in large teams.  It's the lack of value outside of that context that I find disappointing.  -Def just isn't worth all that much and Acid Arrow's is made less valuable by the base ToHit required.  It's just not worth the cast time in most game play situations to me (anything that casts fast can have a use, since the opportunity cost is so low, but once you start getting up around 2s the alternative opportunities branch out and the attendant cost of picking Acid Arrow over those options goes up).

Edited November 13, 2020 by csr
Typos

[Wavicle]

I agree, faster cast time and higher acc would both be nice.

[Bopper]

34 minutes ago, Jacke said:

@Bopper, are two TA with their own EMP Arrows and Acid Arrows (do the Acid Arrows each buff both EMP Arrows...?), are their individual debuffs straight additive?

 

Of course, that's only for 45s out of...5 minute recharge, say 95% Recharge slotted, totally number-out-of-a-hat 105% global recharge, for 200% recharge, so 100s recharge, tiny cast times, so about under 45% uptime of the debuff.

 

Which is why this is hard to get the numbers right.  Even if the two TA toons debuffs are additive, likely the better tactics is to alternate their debuffs and debuff buffs to get near 90% uptime on 61% Regen debuff.  But that sort of coordination is hard....

I like this question, as it shows us how much regeneration do we really care about? Let's start with Trick Arrow number 1. By themself, they can achieve 53.24% regeneration debuff for 45s. But having the 2nd Trick Arrow there, that makes it an initial 80% resistance debuff to regen (which can be perma). That makes the 500% from TA1 do 64.22% debuff. 

 

With a 15s base regeneration rate, the AV now has their regeneration occur at intervals of:

15 / (1 - 0.6422) = 41.93s. So it takes almost the entire duration of the EMP arrow before the AV gets their first tick of 5% HP recovery. If you can kill the AV within those 42s, then you would see the same performance as you would with 100% Regen debuffing (no health recovery), but if the fight goes longer, well, know that you have reduced their Health recovery rate to almost one-third of what it normally should be. Of course...I forgot to factor in the fact you have 15s of another 500% regeneration debuff on top of your 45s regen debuff. So you actually have them floored for those first 15s, then they start recovering there after.

 

So ...let's time this out. First 15s, no regeneration by the AV. Then, you get 30 more seconds where they start to achieve some regeneration. At the 45s mark, they are 30/42 of the way there...then, the 2nd Trick Arrow drops EMP arrow, now they are floored again until the 60s mark. At which point, it takes 12s before the AV gets their first regeneration tick. So this means two Trick Arrows will stack their EMP arrows and Acid Arrows to achieve a 72s time period for your team to attack an AV before it gets its first regeneration tick. Pretty good.

Edited November 13, 2020 by Bopper

[Jacke]

And both Trick Arrow toons can use their Acid Arrows to buff both of their EMP Arrows whenever they're used.....

[Jacke]

I still think Acid Arrow should have some -Res to give it some utility outside of AV/GM fights.  Maybe single-target -Res...but that's heading back to using only on a hard single target.  Tricky (LOL!), but I think that could be done, either ST or AoE -Res Acid Arrow, and still find a sweet spot.  'Course I've come 'round again to having Trick Arrow manage 3 -Res powers.  One ST, one AoE, one either ST or AoE.  Other debuffs....  Blast set Archery....

 

Now that's a lot of arrows downrange. 🙂

Edited November 13, 2020 by Jacke

[Bopper]

12 minutes ago, csr said:

It's the lack of value outside of that context that I find disappointing

If a debuff that can hit up to 16 targets is not worth it to you, you certainly don't have to take it. Skip it. Or...make it a proc bomb. There is no shortage of damage procs that you can slot, as you can achieve 47.383% chance to proc for damage and Achilles. You can throw in a 2nd resistance debuff with annihilation for a 40.614% chance at 12.5% debuff. That might not interest you, it might be too slow at 1.83s (1.98s arcana). In which case, you can skip it. There are enough other powers you can certainly use if Acid Arrow doesn't provide the utility you're looking for.

[Bopper]

4 minutes ago, Jacke said:

I still think Acid Arrow should have some -Res to give it some utility outside of AV/GM fights.  Maybe single-target -Res...but that's heading back to using only on a hard single target.  Tricky (LOL!), but I think that could be done, either ST or AoE -Res Acid Arrow, and still find a sweet spot.  'Course I've come 'round again to having Trick Arrow manage 3 -Res powers.  One ST, one AoE, one either ST or AoE.  Other debuffs....  Blast set Archery....

 

Now that's a lot of arrows downrange. 🙂

Entangling Arrow already does -20% resistance debuff to a single target. Combined with the -40% from Disruption Arrow, you have no shortage of resistance debuffs

[Jacke]

4 minutes ago, Bopper said:

Entangling Arrow already does -20% resistance debuff to a single target. Combined with the -40% from Disruption Arrow, you have no shortage of resistance debuffs

Mover(s) I can't lock down and gets too far from the Disruption Arrow ?  'Course DA is on a 17s recharge, but still the tactical situation will come up....

 

Too bad can't switch to stick Disruption Arrow into the target (but I don't think the game can admit a power both location and enemy targeted).

 

Then I'm back to my favourite Radiation Emission and an enemy anchored -Res PBAoE. 🙂   Which of course means the enemy mob will then run off and tell all his friends....

[Bopper]

5 minutes ago, Jacke said:

Mover(s) I can't lock down and gets too far from the Disruption Arrow ?  'Course DA is on a 17s recharge, but still the tactical situation will come up....

 

Too bad can't switch to stick Disruption Arrow into the target (but I don't think the game can admit a power both location and enemy targeted).

 

Then I'm back to my favourite Radiation Emission and an enemy anchored -Res PBAoE. 🙂   Which of course means the enemy mob will then run off and tell all his friends....

You can use glue arrow (same AoE size) to prevent/slow runners, then drop DA on them.

[csr]

34 minutes ago, Bopper said:

If a debuff that can hit up to 16 targets is not worth it to you, you certainly don't have to take it.

I think you've got an exaggerated idea of the value of -Def.  Your spreadsheet assumes all debuffs are of equal value (save -Rec, which you left out).  They aren't.

Edited November 13, 2020 by csr

[Bopper]

2 minutes ago, csr said:

I think you've got an exaggerated idea of the value of -Def.  Your spreadsheet assumes all debuffs are of equal value (save -Rec, which you left out).  They aren't.

I know what a defense debuff is worth. I also know what debuff resistance debuffs are worth. I also know what procs are worth. I don't know which spreadsheet you're talking about though, you'd need to be more specific.

 

But again, I'm not trying to sell you on it. If you don't want it, skip it. I think I've said that 3 times tonight, but I'll say it again.  Not every power needs to be taken. If you don't find value in it, don't take it. If I find value in it, I'll take it. In no way does it need to he changed just because some people won't take it. Use the allocation of power picks however you want, but I'll assure you this powerset has been squeezed to the max. Buffing Acid Arrow further will come at the cost of something else. If you have ideas on what you'd like to nerf in order to buff AA further, feel free to provide suggestions for the compromise. And if you don't want to nerf any of the other powers, then maybe...skip it.

[Luminara]

2 hours ago, csr said:

This is kind of what I posted earlier, but the Resist floor actually means Acid Arrow doesn't change your -ToHit vs anything but Minions and AVs (see Bopper's post and Capt P's earlier in the thread - I'm guessing Underlings get hit too).  So that tends to make the criticism and conclusion drawn here even stronger.

Yeah.  I deliberately used the floors as modifiers instead of treating lieutenants and bosses as immune to the -Special to emphasize how little it would improve Flash Arrow.  In actual play, it doesn't do anything at all unless they've got more resistance than the floor.  I suppose I could've just said that, but I'm rarely a practitioner of brevity.

 

Underlings would have the same floor as minions/players.  -300% is the lowest possible value with the clamps in place (all buffs and debuffs are clamped at the top and bottom), presuming that is the clamped value (could be -400%, but unlikely).  So against +3 minions, Flash Arrow's mastermind value of ~17.55% (after slotting with +56% -ToHit) would drop to ~11.41%, and with Acid's -Special it would only rise to ~14.37%.  Slightly less than a 3% increase.  Underlings would be slightly more impacted by the final -ToHit value (~14.04% and ~18.53%), as they con -1 to the rest of the spawn, but the gain from Acid still wouldn't be much, ~4.5%.

It's also worth noting that those +3 minions and +2 underlings would have higher hit chances, so that ~3-4.5% would be of even less final value in the hit checks.  That may make it more worthwhile for some players, since it is, in fact, doing something, even if that something is almost nothing, while others, such as myself, will choose to skip it.  Might still be worthwhile for the -Def, considering that the T1 henches are -2 to the mastermind and might need that extra hit chance, but for mitigation, it's just not valuable from my perspective.  There are too many other alternatives available to increase mitigation, or hench hit chances, without sacrificing PGA's Sleep, even if the mastermind is allowing the henches to run willy-nilly.