Something to play towards or un-necessary forced time sink

[Solarverse]

58 minutes ago, Greycat said:

... I think you oversimplify quite a bit there, starting with categorizing players into different (and by the sound of your descriptions, exclusive) categories.  And also make broad assumptions about them. For instance, why do you separate solo players from those who'd want a challenge? I mean, there are players who will play solo - and specifically work towards being able to solo, say, every GM in the game or an Incarnate trial.

 

You're already hobbling what you want to try to describe just by doing that.

This has always been about that though. Players like myself have been prevented from enjoying the game we like to play it because the status quo prefers the game as is. Any attempts made to have any aspect of this game changed at all to make it more enjoyable for players like me (keep in mind, at one time this game was the way we liked it) is usually met with a hard no and typically some rude comment to follow it. I have no choice but to categorize different types of players when there are indeed different types of players. The good news is, I did so in a positive way without casting any one group in a negative way. I understand that people just can't stand to be put in some category, however, the truth is that there are indeed different types of players who play for different reasons and in order for me to express my point of view, it was necessary to put this in to perspective. I don't believe it hurt my argument, on the contrary, I believe it helps my argument.

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Second, we've had a discussion between us about the Hollows, and a lot of what you  - I think your words were "salivated over," but if not, well, it was the image that stuck in my head 🙂  - was not "difficulty," or the difficulty/challenge, but a good portion was inconvenience. In any case, even if they brought the old Hollows, including bugs and/or hardware limitations that had mobs spawn right on top of you, back tomorrow, the "challenge" still would not be there. You'd essentially have to spin up your own server, with the old pool power scheme so there are no travel powers, no IOs - and then edit the zone to remove the hospital and trainer. And find some way to block being able to get to SG bases. Because, simply, even cutting-pasting the old Hollows in with the current game would be a vastly different experience from what you had previously. (And I think I could count the number of people who'd look forward to sprinting back from Atlas when they died on one hand, and have fingers left over.)

Oh, I am fully aware of this. The Hollows can't go back to the way it was, it simply wouldn't be enough to make the Hollows an actual Hazard Zone with today's mechanics. That is why my thoughts on how to implement a new Hollows Hazrd Zone goes a little outside the box. Increasing Mob size and level that spawn at and how many of them there are per square mile might be similar to what it once was, but that was only part of the thought behind making Hollows better. Remember, I also suggested turning the first three contact in there and changing them in to a Task Force.

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Plus, there's a difference between "challenge" and "inconvenience." Mob placement and such? OK, I'll throw that under challenge. Restrict travel powers so you can only sprint across (since, face it, even back in the day hover made getting around trivial,) and it would be a challenge to get around. (And, honestly, I seem to remember making the point on live that this taught aggro radius the hard way.) Removing the trainer, store and (most of all) hospital? Those two are just inconveniences.

Honestly, I would not even change that. That is a bit old school and I would rather find new ways to make the zone a challenge again. If it is going to bring in players like myself, there has to be something new and outside the box.

 

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Or, putting it another way... If I want to climb a mountain, run a marathon, get a difficult certification, learn to drive (and win) in a race? Those are all challenges. I can train and work at overcoming them, and be justifiably proud at doing so. Getting up to go to work and finding my subdivision suddenly has road work closing the street and I have to drive ten or twenty miles out of the way to get to work now? That's an inconvenience, not a challenge. (Or having a tree fall down and crush my car - that's very much an inconvenience. There's not really anything I could do to overcome it... sort of like those insta-popup mobs - not the pumicites, who you just have to pay attention to spot, but the troll and other spawns that used to show up in the street right on top of you.)

Yeah, I am not really in to doing that either. A far as pop-up mobs, not trying to roll with that either. We are on the same page there. Although I do miss those times, I don't think that is the kind of change the zone needs to be a Hazard Zone again. We're safe there.  😉

 

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Honestly, you can experience *now* what I mean by "you'd have to change everything else." You say the Hollows is too easy now. Faultline, of course, was changed to a story zone, though the old version's still in Echo to be experienced. Boomtown is mostly untouched, Crey's as well - but I don't think anyone who's played from early live to now would consider them anywhere *near* as "hazardous" of a zone, and not just from familiarity. People (including those who don't "do builds," like me) casually wander into Crey's or Eden to wipe out 30 enemies to get a costume slot these days... and those are still hazard zones, which haven't changed. The game and the players *have,* though, and they *just aren't as big a deal* any more.

The whole idea behind Hazard Zones was that they were supposed to present more of a challenge than the other zones. To justify the names of those zones, they often gave them a look and feel of there being a catastrophe that allowed the criminal element to take over them, which in turn made the zones much more dangerous. Sadly, that didn't work for most of the zones because they simply just didn't think it through correctly and didn't really give people good reasons to go there. If we start with Hollows and implement the changes mentioned in my previous post, see how that works, and if it is a hit (which I am sure it will be, I team with random people every day and I cannot tell you how many countless conversations I have had with players who wish the Hollows and other Hazard zones were more like what I have presented in this thread) with the players, we can take that as a foundation and build upon it when reworking the other Hazard zones.

 

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Plus, I don't think your requested changes to the hollows would make it the "go to" place at all. Taking the story arcs and turning them into task forces means, for instance, there's one *fewer* place or path for someone to take while leveling. (I already don't have the choice to start in Galaxy, after all, and redside's always seeing the same few zones in the same order is one of the reasons I don't play my redsiders a lot.) I think most people would just put it down as a "don't bother unless one of them is the WTF" place, quite honestly, as (by taking those missions and turning them into TFs) you've *removed* reason for anyone to casually check it out.

On the contrary, I think it would be a hit with players. maybe not the players on these forums, however, most players who I have talked to over the time this game has been back has expressed to me a deep yearning for Hollows to be something more along the lines as I speak of. The thing is, people who want more challenge in this game has nowhere to go. People already have Kings Row that is the same rough level range. The problem here is that players like me have nowhere to go at all to get what we crave whereas we once had that in this game. That has been taken away in favor of the casual gamer and all I am asking for is that players who are like me have a small piece of that pie.

 

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Third (I'm jumping around your post, sorry 🙂  ) you and I will probably *never* agree on the specific example of locking costume pieces away behind content. Though I don't think that's news from talking before.  I'm one of those who's glad that was done away with, because part of the enjoyment of the game is making *your* character *yours,* as opposed to World of EverMining Nights where you can be wizard #2094782 at level 23 with level 23 equipment that looks like every other set of that equipment, but maybe you paid 100 gold to dye it fuscia. No, I don't even agree on "well, you can unlock it for merits." Having to win or unlock purely cosmetic items is annoying in every single game I've run into it in.  Start locking cosmetics away again, and you might as well tell me I have to be a featureless grey blob running generic powers to 50, not a character. Those costume parts not only are *used by* characters, but at times inspire their creation. That shouldn't be locked away.

Which is why I gave a viable solution to that problem by making these things available at the Merit Vendors. I mean, come on....what are players like me supposed to do then? We have nothing, man. It was all taken away from us and I am simply trying my hardest to find a way where players like me are no longer excluded from the things that we once enjoyed about this game. The game was changed on us forcibly. The players who HATED this game back then demanded changes that negatively impacted this game for players like myself. Now we are basically being told to suck it up. We never asked for these changes. I think it is only fair to at least make Hazard Zones hazardous and rewarding. I mean, it's in the very name, Hazard Zone.  😄

 

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That said, I'm honestly not sure where you get this:

 

 

... when that's done already. Badges already *are* the shiny at the end of content. (And in most cases I'll argue to keep them challenging.) Yes, you have an interesting twist on some - whether I agree with it would really be a case by case thing, and I've already made similar suggestions for (for instance) the "keep fir bolg from escaping" mission based on escapes (there's that soloist who enjoys the challenge, btw) - but these *are* the things to strive for now, and *are* as mentioned already locked behind content. You *have* to help defeat Lusca for Devilfish. You *have* to run Moonfire for Honorary Peacebringer. You *have* to do specific actions (or not do them) for the various Master Of badges.

 

Anyway, that's typing enough for now.

This is true, however I was basing that idea off older replies I have gotten to similar requests. So I decided to include it in my post as an option rather than something a player must be forced to do in order to achieve. I simply had to be as thorough as possible to cover all points.

Edited November 18, 2020 by Solarverse

[Greycat]

10 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

The good news is, I did so in a positive way without casting any one group in a negative way. I understand that people just can't stand to be put in some category, however, the truth is that there are indeed different types of players who play for different reasons and in order for me to express my point of view, it was necessary to put this in to perspective. I don't believe it hurt my argument, on the contrary, I believe it helps my argument.

What I was trying to say there had nothing to do with whether people wanted to be put in a category or not. I more found the categories themselves problematic - and ignoring the fact that people can fall into more than one of them.

 

It's like talking about "PVPers" and "Badgers" and "RPers," not to mention the "casual" and (for a category usually thrown in as an opposite to that,) "hardcore," like they're exclusive categories. They're different shaped pegs people try to to fit others into like they're pegs, when they are in fact molasses and spread into multiple ones to various degrees.

 

14 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

It was all taken away from us and I am simply trying my hardest to find a way where players like me are no longer excluded from the things that we once enjoyed about this game. The game was changed on us forcibly. The players who HATED this game back then demanded changes that negatively impacted this game for players like myself. Now we are basically being told to suck it up. We never asked for these changes. I think it is only fair to at least make Hazard Zones hazardous and rewarding. I mean, it's in the very name, Hazard Zone.  😄

... see, there's a bit of that exclusivity again. Why do you think players who didn't like that "hated" the game? The people who hated the game stopped playing it and went on to ... I don't know, call of duty or world of warcraft or hello kitty world.

 

I mean, if you ask some people, the fact PVP zones were introduced "negatively impacted" the game. ED "negatively impacted" the game. Going F2P "negatively impacted" the game... but it was a positive impact for others. Or still others completely indifferent. Hell, if you look I think you'll find someone who thinks adding villains and villain zones "negatively impacted" the game because it - I don't know, divided dev attention or something. That's true for almost every change *made* in the game. I think the 45-50 game has been heavily homogenized and "negatively impacted" by having Incarnate powers around. I didn't ask for that change. I have to - to use your phrase - suck it up, though. There are also some changes I really like. I have to take the good with the bad, what I like with what I don't. Everyone who plays the game does, and will have their own ideas of what was good or bad.

 

Besides, I disagree it was "all" taken away from you ("you" being "I want the challenge.") We have quite a bit of option in how we run our missions. If I just want to get a mission done, I can cheese through it at x0/-1. You can run it at x8+4. It may not affect the "outside world," but it will affect all of your missions. Same with the boss settings, flashback settings, etc. Avenues for self challenge are most certainly still available. And if it's an urge to have something to show off? I still say badges are perfect for it. You can even show off (badge as title, as well as easily available badge count.) About the only other thing I could think of there would be badge-related stuff to show off in a SG base.

 

Going back to the hazard zones, though. Again... even the ones that have not changed, I don't think anyone considers "hazardous" any more. (I think that got lost in the hollows discussion - I didn't just mean it for there, I meant it in general.)  I don't disagree (borrowing another point) that people need more reason to go there besides the occasional mission or GM hunt. I *want* there to be content in Crey's, for instance. I think there's a *lot* that can be explored there. Eden's got links to thinks like Hero Corp (as I'm recalling,) not just Crey and the DE. There *is* a lot of possibility in the zones. But I still don't think anyone would see them as all that "hazardous."

 

 

Hmm... I think what you want (zone wise) would basically have to be given its own zone, to not affect the world at large. Call them "Challenge zones." Maybe you *could* pick this going into a hazard zone, maybe it'd just be an instanced portion of it. You select a "challenge zone," you get a popup. Minimum settings would vary by zone (minimum spawns in the Hollows challenge instance, say, would be x4, though I think that would be smaller than what we generally see now.) You could go up to something silly. X24+7 max, say (to give you a chance to *still* hit and do some damage.) Or select a range. And select flashback-like difficulties as well (no set bonuses, no temp powers, no travel powers, etc.) No ambushes, extra ambushes, boss ambushes - just a wide variety of settings (and let it save your favourites, while we're at it.) Yeah, give them their own badges, too. You'd be able to play through (solo, team, whatever) with these settings without changing it for everyone else. Someone complains they can't lower the difficulty farther and finish the content? The answer would be a blunt "then get a team."

 

Though, frankly, the cynic in me adds in "and they'd mostly be used for farming and PLing." 🙂

[DSorrow]

2 hours ago, Greycat said:

Plus, there's a difference between "challenge" and "inconvenience."

I think this sums up a lot of my concern with gating stuff behind specific content. If the main issue is finding the time to do those things rather than figuring out strategies, then I have a really hard time justifying it as an accomplishment rather than an inconvenience. For example, getting the four passive accolades + Eye of Magus is very strongly in the inconvenience area, in my opinion. None of the required content is difficult, it takes a bunch of time and forces you to do the same things on all characters. I'd absolutely hate it if we got more of these time sinks back as "mandatory" content such as cape and aura missions or costume piece unlocks. 

[Solarverse]

26 minutes ago, Greycat said:

What I was trying to say there had nothing to do with whether people wanted to be put in a category or not. I more found the categories themselves problematic - and ignoring the fact that people can fall into more than one of them.

 

It's like talking about "PVPers" and "Badgers" and "RPers," not to mention the "casual" and (for a category usually thrown in as an opposite to that,) "hardcore," like they're exclusive categories. They're different shaped pegs people try to to fit others into like they're pegs, when they are in fact molasses and spread into multiple ones to various degrees.

 

... see, there's a bit of that exclusivity again. Why do you think players who didn't like that "hated" the game? The people who hated the game stopped playing it and went on to ... I don't know, call of duty or world of warcraft or hello kitty world.

Well, I did not want to include every single possible variation of category there could possibly be, I just wanted to mention the primaries. I covered the basics basically and left it at that.  🙂

 

26 minutes ago, Greycat said:

 

I mean, if you ask some people, the fact PVP zones were introduced "negatively impacted" the game. ED "negatively impacted" the game. Going F2P "negatively impacted" the game... but it was a positive impact for others. Or still others completely indifferent. Hell, if you look I think you'll find someone who thinks adding villains and villain zones "negatively impacted" the game because it - I don't know, divided dev attention or something. That's true for almost every change *made* in the game. I think the 45-50 game has been heavily homogenized and "negatively impacted" by having Incarnate powers around. I didn't ask for that change. I have to - to use your phrase - suck it up, though. There are also some changes I really like. I have to take the good with the bad, what I like with what I don't. Everyone who plays the game does, and will have their own ideas of what was good or bad.

This is why I say it negatively impacted the game for players like me. This is what caused that negative impact for players like me. Unfortunately, all the players who left the game because of this are no longer here to express their views...otherwise I do not think I would have such a hard time trying to get people to see why this affects players who are like-minded as myself. I mean sure, there are tons of things that negatively impacted the game. I remember when Jack Emmert told us on these forums that PvP will not be something they ever do with this game. They had thought about it during development and said no. Then, out of the blue, here comes PvP and once the first set of nerfs hit (like almost immediately, when they added in the -Ac while travel powers are active due to Arena complaints about Super Speeders doing fly-bye hit and runs) I watched 3 of my closest in game friends leave the game because of it. They were outright pissed that the PvE aspect of the game was nerfed due to the bastard (their words, not mine) creation of PvP....something the Devs said they would not be adding to the game but did anyway. There were all sorts of things that caused players to leave the game...however, for the crowd of players I have known over all these endless years nothing caused more of a mass exodus of this game of players who preferred a challenging game with high rewards....who lived by, "more risk = more reward." I almost left myself because I had nobody left to hang out with. So instead since all the people who knew left the game, I left the server I was on and created a level 1 Blaster on a different server in search of a new group of friends to hang out with. It was fricken sad, man. Really sad.

26 minutes ago, Greycat said:

Besides, I disagree it was "all" taken away from you ("you" being "I want the challenge.") We have quite a bit of option in how we run our missions. If I just want to get a mission done, I can cheese through it at x0/-1. You can run it at x8+4. It may not affect the "outside world," but it will affect all of your missions. Same with the boss settings, flashback settings, etc. Avenues for self challenge are most certainly still available. And if it's an urge to have something to show off? I still say badges are perfect for it. You can even show off (badge as title, as well as easily available badge count.) About the only other thing I could think of there would be badge-related stuff to show off in a SG base.

Man, you can't really tell me that it was not all taken away from me and players like me when I was here when this game gave everything I wanted and I watched it all go away little by little. The only thing this game has left that I truly loved was the community, the theme and the general game play. I know it might be hard for some people to understand, but everything I onced cherished about this game has indeed been taken away in some way or another. I can't sit here and let anyone else tell me that is not true when this is coming from my perspective...and judging by the number of threads like this one popping up from time to time, I am not alone in feeling this way.

26 minutes ago, Greycat said:

 

Going back to the hazard zones, though. Again... even the ones that have not changed, I don't think anyone considers "hazardous" any more. (I think that got lost in the hollows discussion - I didn't just mean it for there, I meant it in general.)  I don't disagree (borrowing another point) that people need more reason to go there besides the occasional mission or GM hunt. I *want* there to be content in Crey's, for instance. I think there's a *lot* that can be explored there. Eden's got links to thinks like Hero Corp (as I'm recalling,) not just Crey and the DE. There *is* a lot of possibility in the zones. But I still don't think anyone would see them as all that "hazardous."

Granted that. And I agree to that. Honestly, considering how the mechanics of this game has changed over the years, I would have asked for a revamp to make those zones actually challenging again regardless.

26 minutes ago, Greycat said:

 

 

Hmm... I think what you want (zone wise) would basically have to be given its own zone, to not affect the world at large. Call them "Challenge zones." Maybe you *could* pick this going into a hazard zone, maybe it'd just be an instanced portion of it. You select a "challenge zone," you get a popup. Minimum settings would vary by zone (minimum spawns in the Hollows challenge instance, say, would be x4, though I think that would be smaller than what we generally see now.) You could go up to something silly. X24+7 max, say (to give you a chance to *still* hit and do some damage.) Or select a range. And select flashback-like difficulties as well (no set bonuses, no temp powers, no travel powers, etc.) No ambushes, extra ambushes, boss ambushes - just a wide variety of settings (and let it save your favourites, while we're at it.) Yeah, give them their own badges, too. You'd be able to play through (solo, team, whatever) with these settings without changing it for everyone else. Someone complains they can't lower the difficulty farther and finish the content? The answer would be a blunt "then get a team."

It already has its own zone, man! How can somebody take a zone that is by its very design supposed to present more of a challenge, change it to being easy, then tell us that we need to create a different zone that is challenging? That makes absolute zero logical sense to me. We already have that, why do we need to create a different one? They are Hazard Zones, so let's make them what they are actually supposed to be. I would honestly think that you would see my point on at least that much. You're a sensible guy and I respect you, have never had any problems with you at all. So I honestly thought you could at least see my point on that much.  😞

26 minutes ago, Greycat said:

Though, frankly, the cynic in me adds in "and they'd mostly be used for farming and PLing." 🙂

You would have to delete the game forever to stop that. I don't think it's any big secret that I am not a fan of power leveling. So trust me, anything that I think up will never have power levelers in mind. What I think up will almost always have more to do with a regular level profession that comes with rewards, story and goal oriented.  If I had to take power levelers in to consideration for anything I suggested I would never make another suggestion again, lol.  😄

[Solarverse]

13 minutes ago, DSorrow said:

I think this sums up a lot of my concern with gating stuff behind specific content. If the main issue is finding the time to do those things rather than figuring out strategies, then I have a really hard time justifying it as an accomplishment rather than an inconvenience. For example, getting the four passive accolades + Eye of Magus is very strongly in the inconvenience area, in my opinion. None of the required content is difficult, it takes a bunch of time and forces you to do the same things on all characters. I'd absolutely hate it if we got more of these time sinks back as "mandatory" content such as cape and aura missions or costume piece unlocks. 

Read my post a few posts back...it's long, I'm sorry, but it was necessary and it covers this very thing. The problem is, is that this game has changed in a way where it has literally left players like me (and I am not the only one) behind in favor of players who prefer it in much the same way as you. So this is very hard for players like me because we have truly lost what this game once was. So my suggestion attempts to give us what we want, while maintaining what players like you want.

[DSorrow]

4 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

Read my post a few posts back...it's long, I'm sorry, but it was necessary and it covers this very thing. The problem is, is that this game has changed in a way where it has literally left players like me (and I am not the only one) behind in favor of players who prefer it in much the same way as you. So this is very hard for players like me because we have truly lost what this game once was. So my suggestion attempts to give us what we want, while maintaining what players like you want.

I don't think it's maintaining it if some players are now forced to spend 100 merits x (number of characters) x (whatever unlockables they desire) rather than keeping said unlockables ungated. It's still just a difficulty of finding the time to do all of those things rather than creating something that's an accomplishment in itself because it's challenging. That is, unless you're talking about badges purely because I don't really care for those anymore beyond.

 

9 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

Unfortunately, all the players who left the game because of this are no longer here to express their views...otherwise I do not think I would have such a hard time trying to get people to see why this affects players who are like-minded as myself.

To be honest, I think catering to the population that are here rather than those that maybe could be here is the smart move. As much as I like challenging games, I don't think CoH ever was one and it's far too late to change it to be one. I'd absolutely love some challenging content, but realistically speaking it can probably never be a priority.

 

15 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

I was here when this game gave everything I wanted and I watched it all go away little by little

I share this sentiment in some ways, but I also recognize that I have changed a lot in the past decade, as have probably a lot of other players. I don't find it impossible to accept that some part of the game evolves with the population (even into directions I don't particularly prefer) and some parts stay stagnant while I grow in another direction, but that's just how life works with a lot of things.

[Greycat]

34 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

It already has its own zone, man! How can somebody take a zone that is by its very design supposed to present more of a challenge, change it to being easy, then tell us that we need to create a different zone that is challenging? That makes absolute zero logical sense to me. We already have that, why do we need to create a different one? They are Hazard Zones, so let's make them what they are actually supposed to be. I would honestly think that you would see my point on at least that much. You're a sensible guy and I respect you, have never had any problems with you at all. So I honestly thought you could at least see my point on that much.

... Again, most of the hazard zones *have not been changed,* though. The game around them? Absolutely.  That's what I keep trying to say (and trying not to get it meshed into the Hollows discussion here, I'm talking in general.)

 

I mean... take the ocean. (Well, don't take it. We're messing them up enough, and the fish have to live *somewhere.*) They were once huge barriers. There were dangerous, epic trips across that almost nobody made except by longboat or ... I'm forgetting what the polynesian rafts were called. Getting across and just *navigating* was a major accomplishment. Today? The ocean's still there. Still just as big. But we have reliable ships, GPS, radar... or, heck, airplanes if you really want easy mode.

 

That's what hazard zones have been through. Other than the Hollows (which I honestly don't think has changed as badly as you think, but we'll give that a pass for now 🙂 ) and Faultline (reclaimed to a story zone, though it was a trial zone, not a hazard zone,) the zones really haven't changed. There are still piles of council, vahz, trolls and clockwork in Boomtown. Yes, they had a GM added, but the zone itself didn't really change. Neither did Perez, or Crey's Folly, or Eden. They've really stayed very static, with the same mobs in the same numbers (ok, we can argue a bit about the "council vs column" in Boomtown, but that's minor overall, and still kind of fits.) They're *not* easier on their own. They haven't been made easier - Perez got a nurse, and I think that's it for "easier."

 

Take someone who's level 30 - not min/maxed, not poorly slotted, but solidly average. Drop them in Crey's Folly and... they'll be fine. Do that in issue 3? They've got a fight.

 

That's my point. It's not "the hazard zones are not hazardous because they've been made easier." Most of them have not been changed at all. The game *around* them has increased in power. It's like the kid that was a bully in freshman year to you somehow got trapped in time while you finished school, went to the military, got training, got in shape - then the bully shows up again as the same high school freshman and you can just laugh him off and say "go away, kid."

 

So, why create different zones? Because, while the hazard zones need love, they need *content,* not just "let's jack up the levels." They should not be globally changed, in my view, because there's still plenty people *do* do in some of them. There's a small subset (no offense, but "I talked to people in game" doesn't really tell me much of anything as far as interest,) that wants to "buff the zone mobs." So, my suggestion would give that option without taking the current zones away from everyone else. Sort of like those who want to PVP can do so in their own zones (and the arena) without getting in the way of the people who just want to hunt, or RP, or run a Penny Yin or what have you.

 

Edit:

Honestly, my suggestion already has at least one example (of sorts) in game. At least as I recall. The villainside mission where you test or have to beat your clones... as I *recall* there's an option for just how many you want to face. The "create a challenge zone with these settings" would be that dialed up past 11.

Edited November 18, 2020 by Greycat

[Solarverse]

12 minutes ago, Greycat said:

or, heck, airplanes if you really want easy mode.

Damn airplanes!  😠

 

12 minutes ago, Greycat said:

 There's a small subset (no offense, but "I talked to people in game" doesn't really tell me much of anything as far as interest,) that wants to "buff the zone mobs."

Do me a favor. In game, on a few pugs here and there, while running Frostfire, strike up some conversation with people and reminisce about the "good ol days" and see what people say. I have been doing this for a long time on many many many alts and they all generally say the same things. They miss the days when Hollows were difficult and pretty much everything else I said. Give it a try, you might be surprised how many of the overwhelming players you interact with will say. And I promise you, none of it matches what players on these forums say. Just do that and hit me back sometime. I am interested in what you might find.

[Greycat]

8 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

Do me a favor. In game, on a few pugs here and there, while running Frostfire, strike up some conversation with people and reminisce about the "good ol days" and see what people say. I have been doing this for a long time on many many many alts and they all generally say the same things. They miss the days when Hollows were difficult and pretty much everything else I said. Give it a try, you might be surprised how many of the overwhelming players you interact with will say. And I promise you, none of it matches what players on these forums say. Just do that and hit me back sometime. I am interested in what you might find.

... which, again, I think is going to go back to "everything we have now makes it easier." (And... you still didn't really answer about the other hazard zones. 🙂 )

[Wobegone]

36 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

You would have to delete the game forever to stop that. I don't think it's any big secret that I am not a fan of power leveling. So trust me, anything that I think up will never have power levelers in mind. What I think up will almost always have more to do with a regular level profession that comes with rewards, story and goal oriented.  If I had to take power levelers in to consideration for anything I suggested I would never make another suggestion again, lol.  😄

I'm not sure if the following is relevant to you, but here goes:

 

Monday on Everlasting I joined a Penepole Yin Task Force and the leader had the difficulty cranked up.  There were several players who didn't have set IOs, and there were a few defeats here and there; still manageable, but a bit of a challenge.  In the final mission, the ambushes overwhelmed the team.  I saw inspirations popping everywhere, including my own, but players started dropping left and right.  There was a sense of desperate excitement I rarely get from teams, even ones as low as level 20.  I managed a Howling Twilight just before I dropped getting two teammates back in action...at that point there were only three of us up, and the other two were in danger.  By the skin of our teeth we managed to hang on and turn defeat into victory, or at least that's how I fealt.  Surviving a potential team wipe was the most fun I've had since I came back.  

 

Outside of the occasional Positron or, more rarely a Hollows team, there simply isn't any danger in team play, even PuGs.  IO sets are simply too powerful.  Now, I like that power.  I have enough Influence and stashed IOs to stot ATOs and Winter sets right at level 10.  But I missed that sense of danger.  

 

The only way I can think of to get that level of danger on a more regular basis is self imposed restrictions.  Perhaps a Super Group and/or static team that eschewed set IOs and only slotted say....at maximum level 25 generic IOs.   Personally, I also miss flying/jumping/running from zone to zone.  Everyone is in such a damn hurry.  Again, not sure if any of this is relevant, but that Yin brought back some good memories of my early days of CoH.

 

[Solarverse]

2 minutes ago, Greycat said:

... which, again, I think is going to go back to "everything we have now makes it easier." (And... you still didn't really answer about the other hazard zones. 🙂 )

Everything we have now does make it easier. However, the zone was also made easier. The amount of NPCs per mob was decreased, the levels of the mobs were decreased, how many of them that were in any given area were decreased...that did make a difference on top of the power creep. As far as the other hazard zones...well, let's see here.

Faultline was changed, but that was a pretty decent changed. I just think they should have increased the difficulty of the zone. Dark Astoria was changed, perhaps for the better as well, but same thing with that, I wish it had been made a wee bit more difficult and more interactive. Task Forces seem to be the main driving force on traffic in to a zone. Paper/Radio missions seem to be another major driving force. It's hard to say really but all speculation, which is what gave me the idea to add a TF to the Hollows that actually takes place in a revamped Hollows.

However, I do not want the Devs to waste any time on the other Hazard Zones until we see how this new version of The Hollows works out. If it works out great, then that should green light he other Hazard Zones. If it fails, well, no biggie. Minimal effort would have to be made to change it to my idea since really you are just combining three contact in to one TF, raising the level and intensity of the mobs in the zone and changing a few Bosses to be either AVs or EBs. The cut scene is already there for Frostfire (which did not always exist, but the cut scene fits nicely for a TF) so there would be no need for that...it just seems minimal effort required to see how well or bad this would play out.

Then that opens up the doors for more content as well, which is something that almost every player has been wanting. So why not give it a shot?

[Solarverse]

3 minutes ago, Ignatz the Insane said:

I'm not sure if the following is relevant to you, but here goes:

 

Monday on Everlasting I joined a Penepole Yin Task Force and the leader had the difficulty cranked up.  There were several players who didn't have set IOs, and there were a few defeats here and there; still manageable, but a bit of a challenge.  In the final mission, the ambushes overwhelmed the team.  I saw inspirations popping everywhere, including my own, but players started dropping left and right.  There was a sense of desperate excitement I rarely get from teams, even ones as low as level 20.  I managed a Howling Twilight just before I dropped getting two teammates back in action...at that point there were only three of us up, and the other two were in danger.  By the skin of our teeth we managed to hang on and turn defeat into victory, or at least that's how I fealt.  Surviving a potential team wipe was the most fun I've had since I came back.  

Ah man I fricken LOVE times like that...and it's rare because most teams will complain like crazy if you set it any higher than +1. It sounds lke you had a blast, man. That's why I am trying to get at least the Hazard Zones changed in a way that attracts people that want that kind of challenge, without players having to self impose restrictions on themselves.

 

[Greycat]

See? We're having two different conversations and mentioning "hazard zones" turns into this big grey smear between them. 🙂

 

Honestly, I think we should do any changes to a *different* hazard zone *before* altering one that's more active (IE, The Hollows.) One that hasn't had changes since live. Boomtown would probably be overlooked (too much going on in the same level range - Yin, Sutter, Keith Nance, etc.) So, Perez, Crey's Folly or Eden. And of them, I'd think Crey's would be best to do any changes to. Perez... doesn't really have lore tied to it, much. (The flip side is, we could do a pretty direct comparison with the Hollows. It *hasn't* changed, after all.) Eden falls into Incarnate range, which skews any real sense of difficulty. So I'd say Crey's Folly. Plenty of potential story, hasn't really changed through or since live so it still has the original mob sizes and difficulty, currently, and too low for Incarnanigans.

[Solarverse]

Just now, Greycat said:

See? We're having two different conversations and mentioning "hazard zones" turns into this big grey smear between them. 🙂

 

Honestly, I think we should do any changes to a *different* hazard zone *before* altering one that's more active (IE, The Hollows.) One that hasn't had changes since live. Boomtown would probably be overlooked (too much going on in the same level range - Yin, Sutter, Keith Nance, etc.) So, Perez, Crey's Folly or Eden. And of them, I'd think Crey's would be best to do any changes to. Perez... doesn't really have lore tied to it, much. (The flip side is, we could do a pretty direct comparison with the Hollows. It *hasn't* changed, after all.) Eden falls into Incarnate range, which skews any real sense of difficulty. So I'd say Crey's Folly. Plenty of potential story, hasn't really changed through or since live so it still has the original mob sizes and difficulty, currently, and too low for Incarnanigans.

I would be willing to try alternatives. I simply used Hollows because I felt like it had the most potential to bring people in. But hey, I can compromise. 🙂

 

Edit: Or lke you said, maybe an Echo Hollows but revamped to be made much in the way as described?

Edited November 18, 2020 by Solarverse

[Solarverse]

1 hour ago, DSorrow said:

I don't think it's maintaining it if some players are now forced to spend 100 merits x (number of characters) x (whatever unlockables they desire) rather than keeping said unlockables ungated.

Something I forgot to cover. I don't think you should have to do this on every character minus the badge. If there is a costume unlock, I think it should unlock for the whole server. It's only fair. However, if it is the badge you want, I think you should have to do this on each character, but that should not be an issue since most players only have 1 badge whore. This kind of thing can be worked around is all I am saying.

[DSorrow]

2 hours ago, Solarverse said:

reminisce about the "good ol days" and see what people say. *snip* They miss the days when Hollows were difficult

Lost a more eloquent post thanks to my browser crashing so here's the same thing condensed:

 

I get the nostalgia because I have it for CoX too. That said, I don't think the feeling I miss is achievable anymore, at least in CoH mostly due to reasons beyond changes to the game. Some of the things I found exciting back then, such as sprinting through Hollows (with the nearest hospital in Atlas), I'd now consider annoying or bad design. Some of the challenge or difficulty I remember was, objectively, just me making bad build and gameplay decisions rather than the game offering more challenge. These days the game is pretty much "solved", most of the players are veterans who don't make basic mistakes, and, IME, players tend to research games and look up guides much more these days so fewer people are unaware of the basics.

 

As far as the nostalgia goes, I don't think the phenomenon is specific to CoH, but for most of the games I really liked back then. Many of the games aren't hard like I remembered because I'm more patient and mechanically a better gamer, thanks to an additional decade of game (and life) experience. Many gameplay elements and mechanics are frustrating or boring simply because these days I'm much more critical about what I actually enjoy in games. As perhaps the most exaggerated example, the games that "looked so real" are a actually a bunch of boxes on top of each other, and this kind of perception change can happen to a lot of mechanics in addition to visuals.

 

Hell, nostalgia isn't even specific to games. When I look back on my military service, I mostly have good memories but I honestly can't imagine enjoying it again because 1) I'm not the same person with the same priorities as I was 10 years ago and 2) in all honesty I just don't think about the bad memories and only look back to the good old days. In conclusion, I think nostalgia provides an extremely biased point of view to our past and with 99% certainty things actually weren't as great as we remember them to be. And if they were that great, there's a good chance we're not attributing the greatness to the right things: at least in my case personally, I don't think it was legacy Hollows that was great, but the generally much more care free life of a young student that was great even while I played in the Hollows.

Edited November 18, 2020 by DSorrow

[Luminara]

I did read all of it.  Only commenting on this, though.

 

6 hours ago, Solarverse said:

Players like myself and the OP remember when this game was challenging and getting that shiny at the end was exhilarating. Unfortunately, there is no longer a sense of accomplishment left in this game for people like us. When zones like The Hollows were changed, that was kind of the final nail in the coffin for us. Once that happened, we knew that the type of game we cherished had been removed from us, made easier to play and then given to the other types of players instead.

 

The challenge was never removed.  It was merely shifted into the hands of the players.  We make our own challenge.  I'm not referring exclusively to the difficulty settings, I'm pointing out that every character you create can be designed how you please, to handle whatever level of challenge you prefer.  Your choices determine how easy or hard the game is.  There is no automatic slotting process which stuffs purple/PvP/Winter/unique IOs into your powers.  There's nothing which disables your ability to select less than optimal powers when leveling up.  There isn't a mechanic which prevents you from creating a character with uncomplimentary power sets.  There is no rule which prohibits you from pursuing builds which can't solo at +4/x8.

 

Just as in reality, how difficult this game might be is up to you.  You walk your own road, be it the easy path or the hard path.  Granted, there are a lot of easy paths, but you don't have to scour the brush to find the hard paths, either.  They're everywhere.  Pick one and start walking.

[Solarverse]

19 minutes ago, Luminara said:

I did read all of it.  Only commenting on this, though.

 

 

The challenge was never removed.  It was merely shifted into the hands of the players.  We make our own challenge.  I'm not referring exclusively to the difficulty settings, I'm pointing out that every character you create can be designed how you please, to handle whatever level of challenge you prefer.  Your choices determine how easy or hard the game is.  There is no automatic slotting process which stuffs purple/PvP/Winter/unique IOs into your powers.  There's nothing which disables your ability to select less than optimal powers when leveling up.  There isn't a mechanic which prevents you from creating a character with uncomplimentary power sets.  There is no rule which prohibits you from pursuing builds which can't solo at +4/x8.

 

Just as in reality, how difficult this game might be is up to you.  You walk your own road, be it the easy path or the hard path.  Granted, there are a lot of easy paths, but you don't have to scour the brush to find the hard paths, either.  They're everywhere.  Pick one and start walking.

As I have stated multiple times throughout many various threads, that right there is kind of a smack in the face to me. I know you are not intending to do so, but that is the same beat down we have been fed for years and years, even before server shut down.

 

The whole argument of "if you want a challenge then stop building your character and go without enhancements" truly smacks us in the face when people say this. You simply cannot understand how insulting that is to us when people tell us that. It's just not the same...like at all. I should not have to purposely gimp myself to feel challenged in the game. The idea is to play something challenging, hit that challenge with everything we've got, then learn from our mistakes and try again until we finally get it right...or with a bit of hard work and good game play, beat it the first time and then feel accomplished for doing so. We as players should not have to play Werner Rules ITF to feel challenged especially since doing so rewards nothing but bragging rights. Want to know what players are doing to feel challenged these days? They are playing ITF at max difficulty, no inspirations, no temp powers, buffed enemies no deaths and then soloing it. That is how desperate people are to feel challenged. No...just...no. We need something more than this...we really do and my request is honestly not beyond reasonable. It is a very reasonable request that takes everyone in to consideration. All we are asking for is a small piece of the pie and we are basically being told no....that we should gimp ourselves instead. You see how that can be insulting?

At this point we can take pride in knowing we gave it our best and it feels amazing to have something to show for it. We never had to purposely gimp ourselves before, why should we have to start now? It was not us who wanted all these power creep changes and mob changes in the game, in fact we very much protested against it before it was even implemented in to the game. So why should we have to deliberately gimp ourselves in light of all of this?

 

With any other game that presents power creep, they almost always have more challenging content to allow people to feel accomplished. Not this game. The Devs kept introducing more and more power creep but they did nothing to adjust for it. And honestly, who goes in to the Hollows fully geared out? The Hollows has been changed. When I go in at level 5, the mobs are fricken white conning to me now. They didn't used to before the revamp. The best I could hope for was orange con minions in those days. The game has indeed changed. A lot of things have changed, not just the one aspect, however, the revamp of the Hollows was one among many.

 

 

Edited November 18, 2020 by Solarverse
Edited for clarity

[EmmySky]

27 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

No...just...no. We need something more than this...we really do and my request is honestly not beyond reasonable. It is a very reasonable request that takes everyone in to consideration. All we are asking for is a small piece of the pie and we are basically being told no....that we should gimp ourselves instead. You see how that can be insulting?

 

 

I hope you see the irony of this.  Your request (and that of other people who ask for more locked content) are NOT taking 'everyone in to consideration'.  There are many players who are very casual and simply do not have time for overcoming certain gates.  The answer to this problem has been to make the gate something you can do over time, which makes it just an inconvenience, not a challenge.  As you claim you are being insulted, you are turning around and insulting others.

 

I agree, you shouldn't have to run without enhancements or 'gimped' to feel a challenge.  Perhaps adjusting your viewpoint on the subjective word 'challenge' will help.  I like diving into base building and seeing if I can make a certain thing work.  This is a challenge to me.  I also like PLing up a toon just to see how fast I can do it (because I am notoriously slow).  I like seeing how fast OR how cheaply I can buy a full set (all 90-odd slots) of enhancements, you can't do both LOL.  I like chilling out and running tip missions in Atlas, and for a challenge, bring along some baby heroes and try to keep them alive.  I have recently begun playing in the (new to me) zones of First Ward and Night Ward, they are super scary looking and the fights can be a bit of a challenge sometimes.  

 

You know why people run ITF on max with no goodies?  Because its a fairly easy and straightforward task force.  Unless you pick up a totally unprepared team who doesn't know a power icon from an inspiration, its going to be a cake walk.  Most people who complain about challenge in this game are running PI radios involving council and no caves.  I am not saying YOU do this, but many do.  There are more challenging things out there, and sometimes we have to hunt for them or impose the challenge on ourselves.  I'm not saying gimp ourselves, I'm saying hmm, I have half an hour before work, can I take down Inferno and clear the mission and have time to get my uniform on and hair in a bun?  

 

And please note, this is a discussion thread.  Nobody but the devs actually have power to implement any of the changes or adjustments you and others are advocating.  To say 'we are basically being told no' is disingenuous.  People are disagreeing, and for valid reasons, but that's not a NO because the person who disagrees doesn't have the power to make it a YES.  a simple 'I disagree' is not a 'no'.  

 

I still think gated things should be restricted to actual game play.  Divergent story arcs.  If you choose X you cannot choose Y.  Costume pieces have nothing whatsoever to do with how well I play the game and therefore should be left open (IMO).  You cannot do certain TFs until you complete the zone arcs and unlock them.  That's a gate that actually has to do with playing the game.  If you want to show off how fancy you are, the badges can all be worn as titles for bragging or .... whatever.  And they actually have to do with game play.  Either playing hide and seek with explore badges or defeating enemies or surviving battles, that's all game play.  Wearing spandex or a robe is not game play (the costume crowd is going to nail me on this lol).

 

Anyway, nobody should feel insulted or offended.  This is a discussion and people are allowed to have differing opinions.  Trying to change other peoples opinions is just like banging your head on a brick wall.  Its not going to help.  Continuing to argue about if peoples opinions are right or wrong is not going to help.  It is way too subjective for all that. 

 

Sorry for the long post, ya'll have a good day now!

 

Happy Hunting 😄

[Luminara]

36 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

The whole argument of "if you want a challenge then stop building your character and go without enhancements" truly smacks us in the face when people say this.

 

That's not what I said.  I said you can choose to create and play characters which are challenged by the existing content.  Deliberately ignoring everything and focusing on enhancements as the intent and tone of my comments is on you, not me.  Stop looking for a fight.

 

I'm playing an Incarnate level character right now, with purples, Winter IOs, PvP IOs, ATOs, the whole shebang, and I can't solo this character at +4/x8.  She's just not capable of achieving that, and it's not because she's missing enhancements or slotted with SOs, it's because the content is already difficult for her with the powers she has and the way I play her.  +1/x4 is as high as I care to go with this character, because despite being at the soft cap for Defense, despite having a heal, despite having perma-Hasten, she's not a character designed to make the game easy.  I don't even think about fighting AVs as AVs with this character, because she'd be smooshed in less than half a minute.

 

Enhancements aren't the problem.  The problem is making the choice to only play god/goddess-like characters.  Make a sentinel or defender who uses melee attacks.  Make a tank or scrapper who uses ranged attacks.  Make a petless mastermind.  Make something that only uses single-target attacks.  Make something that doesn't have full status protection, maxed Defense/Resistance, travel powers.  Turn off all inspiration drops.  You can choose to play something less than optimal, and make the game quite a bit more difficult for yourself when you do that, even with all of the bells and whistles of IO set bonuses and procs and Incarnate powers.

 

Play a C-lister instead of a member of the JL/Avengers.  That's what I said.  That's what I meant.  The game plays very differently when you're Moon Knight or Matter Eater Lad, instead of Superman or Iron Man.

[Solarverse]

1 minute ago, EmmySky said:

I hope you see the irony of this.  Your request (and that of other people who ask for more locked content) are NOT taking 'everyone in to consideration'.  There are many players who are very casual and simply do not have time for overcoming certain gates.  The answer to this problem has been to make the gate something you can do over time, which makes it just an inconvenience, not a challenge.  As you claim you are being insulted, you are turning around and insulting others.

If you go back to the previous page and read my book that I wrote (haha) you will see that I did indeed take everyone in to consideration. If asking people to spend 100 merits is asking them to much to unlock a costume piece without having to run the content to get it for free, then bad on them, especially since they undoubtedly do the same thing to get enhancements from the same vendor and especially since it is a one time purchase account wide. I mean really, I can't think of a better way than that to make these types of missions fair for all.

1 minute ago, EmmySky said:

You know why people run ITF on max with no goodies?  Because its a fairly easy and straightforward task force.  Unless you pick up a totally unprepared team who doesn't know a power icon from an inspiration, its going to be a cake walk.  Most people who complain about challenge in this game are running PI radios involving council and no caves.  I am not saying YOU do this, but many do.  There are more challenging things out there, and sometimes we have to hunt for them or impose the challenge on ourselves.  I'm not saying gimp ourselves, I'm saying hmm, I have half an hour before work, can I take down Inferno and clear the mission and have time to get my uniform on and hair in a bun?  

I am talking Werner Rules ITF, not some country bumpkin ITF that people steam role. Werner Rules are as follows:

 

• Solo
• No Deaths
• Buffed Enemies
• No Inspirations
• No Temp Powers
• Max Difficulty
• X8 Mobs

That is what some of us are doing to feel challenged in this game. I have attempted this on 5 different Tanks so far and have yet to beat it...I have spent countless hours doing this and the furthest I have gotten was the second to last mission not even making it to the AV fight and I was able to pull this off on three of the 5 Tanks who attempted it....two of those three I am convinced can achieve it with a good strategy and with no kids in the house to interrupt my attention from the game, lol. What sucks about this...is the fact that even after I finally accomplish this go, I will have diddly squat to show for it...I will have bragging rights....and honestly, who cares about bragging rights.

This is the kind of challenge we are placing on ourselves that this game simply does not offer us and that is completely unrewarding. So how is this fair to us? We have been here the whole time this game has been around and that sense of accomplishment no longer exists since now everything is handed to the players on a silver platter. However, I am a fair man and I believe I have truly devised a way to make it as fair as possible for everyone.

 

As it stands right now, the only players that it is fair for are the players who wanted this change that we currently have in game now. however, the players who did not want these changes and who very much were against these changes have been negatively impacted by these changes and when we ask just for a tincy wincy part of the game to be made to bring us back that small piece of the game that we so much miss...we are being told that we are the ones who are being unreasonable? You see how that becomes insulting? Like I said, I know people do not mean to be, but it is pretty damn insulting when we express how we feel and try very hard to come up with a way or us to get back what we once had and have taken everybody else's play-style in to consideration and yet we are the ones being told that we are being insulting. That just adds salt to the wound. It's like you have pulled the knife out of my back and are now plunging it into my heart, lol. I hope you can understand.  😞

1 minute ago, EmmySky said:

 

And please note, this is a discussion thread.  Nobody but the devs actually have power to implement any of the changes or adjustments you and others are advocating.  To say 'we are basically being told no' is disingenuous.  People are disagreeing, and for valid reasons, but that's not a NO because the person who disagrees doesn't have the power to make it a YES.  a simple 'I disagree' is not a 'no'.  

This is true, however, many of the changes the Devs make are based off feedback from the players. And even though a Dev or two may agree with me, that change will not happen if people keep dumping on my idea.  😞

1 minute ago, EmmySky said:

Anyway, nobody should feel insulted or offended.  This is a discussion and people are allowed to have differing opinions.  Trying to change other peoples opinions is just like banging your head on a brick wall.  Its not going to help.  Continuing to argue about if peoples opinions are right or wrong is not going to help.  It is way too subjective for all that. 

Yeah, my head has quite a few knots on it, you wouldn't happen to have a small bag of ice would you?  😄

1 minute ago, EmmySky said:

 

Sorry for the long post, ya'll have a good day now!

 

Happy Hunting 😄

Meh, at least you didn't write a book like I did, lol. Take care, EmmySky.  🙂

[Solarverse]

Just now, Luminara said:

 

That's not what I said.  I said you can choose to create and play characters which are challenged by the existing content.  Deliberately ignoring everything and focusing on enhancements as the intent and tone of my comments is on you, not me.  Stop looking for a fight.

Woah! Not looking for a fight at all...that was simply how I interpreted it. Sorry, that is just the typical response that I am accustomed to getting from people, so I guess I was projecting there. My apologies. Let's get back to our happy voices now.  🙂

[Pzn]

4 hours ago, Solarverse said:

Damn airplanes!  😠

 

Do me a favor. In game, on a few pugs here and there, while running Frostfire, strike up some conversation with people and reminisce about the "good ol days" and see what people say. I have been doing this for a long time on many many many alts and they all generally say the same things. They miss the days when Hollows were difficult and pretty much everything else I said. Give it a try, you might be surprised how many of the overwhelming players you interact with will say. And I promise you, none of it matches what players on these forums say. Just do that and hit me back sometime. I am interested in what you might find.

I tried what you said and couldn't find anyone that wanted to make the game grindier.

[Lines]

I think there are loads of opportunities to bring challenge into the game from a developmental standpoint, and they're pretty exciting to think about. They may not be the old challenges - and maybe shouldn't be.

 

Worth stating that Challenge =/= Grinding. Grinding can be Challenging, Challenge can be Grinding, but they don't equate to each other. I think it's easy to think that people asking for challenge mean that they necessarily just want grinds.

 

The new redside arc in beta has a gold standard example: grab a specific bunch of badges and souvenirs to unlock an extra challenging fight. That's pretty awesome! I think it ticks a lot of my personal boxes in terms of what is meant by challenge.

 

Dr Kane's House of Horrors has my favourite boss in the game, where there's an extra challenge of spawning and defeating adds.

 

TRHW and a lot of the iTrails badge stuff adds a third dimension to each of those.

 

All those examples could be brushed past. But if you choose to engage with them, then you may need to hit the breaks a little, figure out how the mechanic works, coordinate with the team and get it done. I think they're perfect examples of the kinds of challenges this game could benefit from more of.

Edited November 18, 2020 by Lines

[Solarverse]

Just now, josh1622 said:

I tried what you said and couldn't find anyone that wanted to make the game grindier.

The game was never a grind...at least not by my standards. So yeah, you won't find anybody who would prefer the game a grind. So nobody on the team said anything about how much they used to love the Hollows before they changed the hollows? Nobody said anything about how much more fun the Hollows were before the Power Creep? Hmmmm....maybe it is just the luck of the dice then and I just happen to be getting team after team after team week after week after week pf players who view things similar to the way that I do. It's possible...stranger things have known to happen.