Something to play towards or un-necessary forced time sink

[DSorrow]

1 minute ago, Solarverse said:

That sounds an aweful lot like, "If you want to gate stuff, gate it for yourself and just don't put on a cape until after you ran the cape mission."

So this is a discipline issue? To be brutally honest, it very much seems to me that doing something "the hard way" doesn't hold meaning to you in itself, otherwise easier ways being available wouldn't matter. Because of that, the only conclusion I can draw is that the significance of accomplishments is there for you only if other people can't have them, and that's an attitude I really can't empathize with.

[Solarverse]

18 minutes ago, DSorrow said:

So this is a discipline issue? To be brutally honest, it very much seems to me that doing something "the hard way" doesn't hold meaning to you in itself, otherwise easier ways being available wouldn't matter. Because of that, the only conclusion I can draw is that the significance of accomplishments is there for you only if other people can't have them, and that's an attitude I really can't empathize with.

If that is what you think then you did not properly digest the post in which you quoted sentences from earlier but rather seen what you wanted to see. We will just have to agree to disagree.

Edited November 20, 2020 by Solarverse

[DSorrow]

6 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

If that is what you think then you did not properly digest the post in which you quoted sentences from earlier but rather seen what you wanted to see. We will just have to agree to disagree.

I don't think you properly explained why the value of a video game equivalent for a household chore is increased if digital shinies that separate the player from others are tied to it. In my opinion gates make unenjoyable content always worse: if I didn't enjoy the activity before, I won't suddenly start enjoying it but because of the gate I'm more or less compelled to spend my time on it. If I did enjoy the activity, I'd do it anyways without exclusive rewards. If the content is so bad that exclusive rewards are the only thing keeping me in-game, then I really should find another game to play. Implementing digital rewards to compel me to do something I don't actually like is a bad solution, it doesn't fix why the content isn't rewarding on its own but rather works as a consolation prize for perceived misery. Also just pre-emptively stating this, I'm not against rewards in general, I'm against gates and rewards exclusively tied to specific content: for example, I don't mind level gates because there are a million avenues to achieve that so that everyone can enjoy their way there, but I really dislike stuff like cape missions.

 

What comes to digestion, if there indeed are no words in human language to better explain your point of view and it just is what it is, then all I can say is there isn't much to digest which leaves me completely unconvinced and we do have to agree to disagree.

[Solarverse]

5 minutes ago, DSorrow said:

I don't think you properly explained why the value of a video game equivalent for a household chore is increased if digital shinies that separate the player from others are tied to it. In my opinion gates make unenjoyable content always worse: if I didn't enjoy the activity before, I won't suddenly start enjoying it but because of the gate I'm more or less compelled to spend my time on it. If I did enjoy the activity, I'd do it anyways without exclusive rewards. If the content is so bad that exclusive rewards are the only thing keeping me in-game, then I really should find another game to play. Implementing digital rewards to compel me to do something I don't actually like is a bad solution, it doesn't fix why the content isn't rewarding on its own but rather works as a consolation prize for perceived misery. Also just pre-emptively stating this, I'm not against rewards in general, I'm against gates and rewards exclusively tied to specific content: for example, I don't mind level gates because there are a million avenues to achieve that so that everyone can enjoy their way there, but I really dislike stuff like cape missions.

 

What comes to digestion, if there indeed are no words in human language to better explain your point of view and it just is what it is, then all I can say is there isn't much to digest which leaves me completely unconvinced and we do have to agree to disagree.

Simple answer, if I felt like it were a chore, I wouldn't be playing at all. There is where you logic concerning me and other players like me is flawed.

[Omega-202]

15 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

Simple answer, if I felt like it were a chore, I wouldn't be playing at all. There is where you logic concerning me and other players like me is flawed.

And yet, you're asking to change things in a way that would make the game feel like a chore for other people.  I'm not sure @DSorrow is failing to understand you, I think you are failing to understand the opposing perspective.  

[Solarverse]

Just now, Omega-202 said:

And yet, you're asking to change things in a way that would make the game feel like a chore for other people.  I'm not sure @DSorrow is failing to understand you, I think you are failing to understand the opposing perspective.  

And the oppose perspective can't even compromise on the subject. People with my perspective had no choice in the matter. it must be nice to be on the side of the opposing perspective.

[Omega-202]

13 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

And the oppose perspective can't even compromise on the subject. People with my perspective had no choice in the matter. it must be nice to be on the side of the opposing perspective.

Not everything is up for compromise.  

 

Here's an analogy: Right now, we have a nice park with a full baseball field on it.  You come along and say "Remeber when there was a duck pond in the park? I want to put a duck pond back in the park", but the only place to put said duck pond is on home plate.  Everyone says "no you'll ruin our baseball field" and you ask for a compromise where we put a little bit of a duck pond on first base instead...

 

There is no compromising this.  And yes it is nice to have things in a good place right now. 

[DSorrow]

57 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

Simple answer, if I felt like it were a chore, I wouldn't be playing at all. There is where you logic concerning me and other players like me is flawed.

So, if you already enjoy the game, what purpose do gates and exclusive medals serve except to separate you from the average player? The rite of unlocking said things is still available if you want to prove yourself that you're capable of it, and the aura/cape will be the same either way so its intrinsic value doesn't change. If those are not where the value comes, then what else is there besides exclusivity? This is where I can't grasp what else you want if it's not inflating the apparent value of something you have by gating others from it, but yet you keep claiming it's not about elitism.

 

What I see is a bunch of quite selfish demands with very little explanation as to why these specific changes would add value to you, from which we could extrapolate how they could add value to others. There's also seemingly little regard to the negative impact on players who want to keep the game minimally gated (merits aren't free) or addressing the points of the people who disagree with you. Overall it just comes out as a selfish demand with a lot of avoidance and going in circles when pressed for the reasoning.

 

36 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

And the oppose perspective can't even compromise on the subject.

If you just adamantly state that this adds value, but then avoid explaining how (besides "MMOs have gates so they are great") and I only see negatives, why would I compromise? Would you compromise if someone suggested making HC into We Have Cake 2.0 because "they'd like it a lot and it will be great, but it is impossible to explain if it is something that you are not already aware of and part of. It quite frankly is something that just can't be explained because there are no words in the human language that can explain it" and then followed it up by "it was suggested, but people like me had no choice in the matter and cake was taken from me so I'm a victim here"?

 

Until I see proper reasoning, I can only conclude that just because you want to be forcibly held off of capes, auras, etc. until a specific rite of passage is completed isn't a reason to impose hard limitations on everyone. No reasoning, no compromise because that wouldn't make any sense.

Edited November 20, 2020 by DSorrow

[Solarverse]

Just now, DSorrow said:

If you just adamantly state that this adds value, but then avoid explaining how (besides "MMOs have gates so they are great") and I only see negatives, why would I compromise?

I have explained my fricken ass off in this thread, I have given so many different reasons why this is fun for players me that I damn near went blind from all the typing. How many more do you need, man? And of course you only see negatives, if you seen positives there would be no need to compromise, now would there? Man, I need to log off, this right here is getting asinine.

[Ruin Mage]

I think it boils down to differences in what people want out of a game, but HC should not twist itself like a pretzel in my forum warrior opinion. 

What I mean is simple - there's a middle ground that can be met if its figured out. I think it would be shooting the foot to shove costume pieces behind a grind of any form. I think those should remain free and open to all - whenever they can design new costume pieces that is. The exception being NPC costume pieces, but there's no indication they're looking into freeing those up for players. I also think that a grind should not reward cosmetics in general. 

I do not believe, personally, that HC should invest in "something to play towards" for a game like City of Heroes. However, people clearly want something more - so perhaps there is value in eventually figuring out what. More chances for IOs? More reward merits? I doubt that's something people want. Badges? Probably wouldn't be "enough" for some people. I'm no code cracker, but perhaps titles akin to the origin ones or the Yellow/gold title rewards could work. Of course, I'm spitballing options here because CoH was never a "grind grind grind" type of game. It is not a game like World of Warcraft, Final Fantasy, or other MMOs. It has one tradeskill which doesn't have any skill up to it. HC has gotten rid of "do this to unlock x.", and thankfully so.

Perhaps HC may be able to figure out more costume slots. Perhaps not.

It's a little hard to ask for stuff to play towards when CoH was not a game built around the grind and HC has taken out the unneeded "do x to get y" missions (Capes, Auras, costume slots bar the last slot IIRC) so meeting the ask is hard. Perhaps people need to temper their expectations/wants out of a volunteer team that doesn't have the manpower of an actual dev team. Also, leveling grind is a whole other topic before people say anything about that.

Food for thought.

Edited November 20, 2020 by Shadeknight

[DSorrow]

Just now, Solarverse said:

I have explained my fricken ass off in this thread

Most of which amounts to "I think this would be fun" or "MMOs do it so it's great", and whenever pressed for specifics, you cop out with "I've already explained this", "this can't be explained", "you didn't digest what I said" or something similar. I've asked you time and time again, if the completion of the rite of passage (optionally available) or the intrinsic value of the unlockable item (available either way) don't constitute the whole value, what is the rest of it? There are only two things that I can think of which are:

1. There's some value added by the unlockable being exclusive to those who completed the rite of passage = others not having it. This is an attitude I can't empathize with.
2. You skip the rite of passage because that can be done and subsequently miss out on the value of it. This is also something I can't really empathize with.

So, if that's not it, what is it in plain English?

 

10 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

And of course you only see negatives

Well, from my point of view you want changes that make the baseline game less fun, gates that provide relief from said less-fun, and with all of this framed as fun with no actual explanation as to why this is fun instead of gated relief from not-fun ("fun" by contrast). If I'd see positives or a reasoning why the change is necessary even though I don't like it (like the TW nerfs), of course I'd compromise, but here I don't see either.

[Lockpick]

I can see the benefits of some gating and we already have some gating.  Overall, I think we are in a pretty good place.  That being said, I wouldn't mind seeing some additional rewards based on additional gating / accomplishments.  I think it is fine to have accomplishments that reward players with items that can only be received from completing said accomplishment as long as everyone has the same opportunity to choose to do these accomplishments.

 

Examples:

• I would have preferred that the Military Epaulets were still gated behind Task Force Commander.  It was a unique costume part that indicated you had completed the core Task Forces.  If you saw people wearing that part you knew they completed the TFC and if you wanted the part you were incentivized to do the TFs.  This pushed more people to do these TFs and ensured groups could be found.  We still have the accolade power, so it is not necessarily needed because people will still do these TFs for the accolade.  However, if there wasn't a TFC accolade how many people would really do Synapse or Citadel?
• I would love an accolade power and costume part tied to completing the 4 Shadow Shard TFs and exploration of the shard.  How many people really complete these 4 TFs?  I don't think I have ever done all 4 on any of my characters.  There is no incentive for doing it.  Groups can be hard to get together unless they are the WST.  Even during WST is available I very rarely will answer the call to group because it is not worth it to me.

I saw one of the posts earlier that indicated these types of accomplishments are akin to doing the laundry; an unpleasant activity that needs to be done.  I don't view them that way.  I view them as achievements that I completed that provided me rewards I wanted.  Everyone has the option to not pursue them, so I don't think it is unreasonable to have some rewards behind gating.

 

I'm also an advocate of providing more rewards for vet levels tied with other accomplishments.

 

Example:

• You have earned Task Force Commander and achieved 100 vet levels and you get X

I like these gates / rewards because IMO they allow a character to continue progression beyond 50 and incarnates.

 

I believe that characters that continue their progression will become better known on their server and as they become better known it will drive more of a community spirit, which I believe adds longevity to the game and player base.  I, of course, have no data to back this up; just my opinion.

[Alchemystic]

There's already grind:

• Grinding inf to fund builds
• Grinding for incarnate stuff
• Grinding to get badges

And last but not least

• People with an axe to grind in this thread

[Night]

HC (and prior) did the smart thing of unlocking everything and not gating things. I already did my grind back on live, this does not need to be a second job like any other MMO just to get shinies and costume pieces. If you want things gated off, gate them yourself until you reach a certain point in the game, accolades are already there to reward shinies.

 

Consider a scenario: "I have this awesome character idea but I need those costume pieces! Oh, you have to get 1400 badges and complete all the TFs in the game for it? And it only unlocks on one character? Forget it"

 

Bet you wouldn't wanna find yourself on the crap end of that.

Edited November 20, 2020 by Night

[Omega-202]

30 minutes ago, Lockpick said:

I believe that characters that continue their progression will become better known on their server and as they become better known it will drive more of a community spirit, which I believe adds longevity to the game and player base.  I, of course, have no data to back this up; just my opinion.

I strongly disagree with this viewpoint.  I have people I play with pretty regularly, and people that are well enough known, but I honestly couldn't care if any individual was or wasn't around.  I don't know them personally and never will, and it has no impact on retaining my attention in game.  

 

I also have never respected anyone based on gaming accomplishments.  I have more respect for a bad player who seems nice than an accomplished player of neutral to bad disposition.  

 

We had a 5+ page thread a few weeks back about how so many people currently playing suffer from so much social anxiety that they don't lead teams and often won't join them.  I don't see the social aspect as a make or break for the current playerbase.  

 

Also re: TFs, nobody is doing TF Commander for the epalauts.  If you want to see if someone did it, you look for the accolade on their power bar or info.  Also, in terms of incentives, I slapped together a Synapse last week in less than 20 mins, on a random week night on Indomitable.  If I can do that, then there's no shortage of reasons to run TFs.

 

And regarding the SS TFs, do them on double merit weeks.  I have never had an issue getting a team on a double merit weekend.  

Edited November 20, 2020 by Omega-202

[jubakumbi]

I personally think it's more comedy gold that there are numerous instances of offers of a middle ground and comprimise, but some voices continue to say they do not exist.

This denial of reality is, IME, at the root of this whole argument, coupled with the attitude of things got 'taken away' rather than 'changed'.

 

IMO, this is a prime example of the attitude 'if you understood, you would agree', something a lot of humans tend to exhibit, IME.

 

@DSorrow, you are doing the people's work here, hat's off to you!

 

It's amazing to me that we can show right now that using the tools in-game, players can gate anything they like with a little self-discipline and a personal goal and still get told there is no way for it to work, when it already does.

 

It will never cease to amaze me that some people want to turn these games into some form of second life/job/career/lifestyle and think the rest of us are 'not understanding' because we just want to play a video game for a while, not prove to anyone, ourselves, other random people on the Internet, no-one that we 'deserve' to wear a cape.

 

However, none of this has changed in the decades I have played games.

None of it.

These are circular arguments that have all existsed since we have been talking about games, my whole life.

The Wheels on the Bus go Round and Round...it's entertaining!

[Andreah]

We have a lot of badges for doing grindy things already. (It's almost like we have whole categories for achievements and accomplishments? 😄 ) And badges are widely coveted, so I think we're good overall -- IMO, no change needed.

 

But if we did add something to encourage more play/grind, we could add more badges, maybe a new badge category that went to very high levels of various things, could be used as titles, but did not count as "real" badges towards the completionist badge count. Or maybe that would be okay, it they weren't stupidly high; the hypothetical new top influence badge was earn 750,000,000 inf (the current top one is 500,000,000) and not 10,000,000,000.

 

And finally, along the same lines, what if we went through and added a new badge to every story arc in game that doesn't have one already? 

 

Encourage people to play, or do content, but please don't gate our characterization creativity tools behind grind.

[Lockpick]

6 minutes ago, Omega-202 said:

I strongly disagree with this viewpoint.  I have people I play with pretty regularly, and people that are well enough known, but I honestly couldn't care if any individual was or wasn't around.  I don't know them personally and never will, and it has no impact on retaining my attention in game.  

 

I also have never respected anyone based on gaming accomplishments.  I have more respect for a bad player who seems nice than an accomplished player of neutral to bad disposition.  

 

We had a 5+ page thread a few weeks back about how so many people currently playing suffer from so much social anxiety that they don't lead teams and often won't join them.  I don't see the social aspect as a make or break for the current playerbase.  

 

Also re: TFs, nobody is doing TF Commander for the epalauts.  If you want to see if someone did it, you look for the accolade on their power bar or info.  Also, in terms of incentives, I slapped together a Synapse last week in less than 20 mins, on a random week night on Indomitable.  If I can do that, then there's no shortage of reasons to run TFs.

 

And regarding the SS TFs, do them on double merit weeks.  I have never had an issue getting a team on a double merit weekend.  

You are certainly welcome to your opinion.  My opinion is different. 

 

I'm not talking about adding a huge amount of gating.  I'm talking more about adding additional rewards to existing content.  Maybe 5 to 10 unique costume parts, maybe a couple of more accolade powers, maybe some temp powers.

 

TFC: Glad we agree here. I mentioned "We still have the accolade power, so it is not necessarily needed because people will still do these TFs for the accolade."  You were able to form a Synapse in 20 minutes.  Great!  Do you think it would be easier or harder to form that Synapse if the TFC accolade was not gated behind it?

 

I do appreciate you bolstering my case that additional rewards provide incentive for doing activities.  I agree that doing SS TFs during the WST is really the best time to do them.  I wouldn't mind though if an additional incentive like an accolade power or a costume part was awarded for completing all 4.  It's not there now, no one needs it, what is the issue with adding something like that?  If you don't care to do the activities that would unlock the reward then you would not miss it.  Those that want the reward bad enough will find a way to earn it.

 

Do you think the accolade powers that are gated today should be unlocked for everyone at level 1? Or do you think they should be earned as is today?

[Omega-202]

12 minutes ago, Lockpick said:

Do you think the accolade powers that are gated today should be unlocked for everyone at level 1? Or do you think they should be earned as is today?

I think a P2W vendor alternative should be available for the accolades, if you've unlocked them on one character already.  I think that it's too grindy as is, and its a disincentive for me when I want to make a new alt.  Let me pay 20 mil/accolade to the P2W and get them right away, if I so choose.

 

With the way the game is set up, you don't need a team for any of the TFs.  I've solo'd or duo'd the whole TF Commader set anyway, so I don't see any reason we should be driving people to form teams to do it.  

 

RE: the Synapse, I would have just run it with whoever was willing to join, including just soloing it at min difficulty.  It probably would have taken about the same amount of time, and the only benefit to me was that I was helping other less experienced players avoid the grind.  

Edited November 20, 2020 by Omega-202

[Lockpick]

1 hour ago, Shadeknight said:

I think it boils down to differences in what people want out of a game, but HC should not twist itself like a pretzel in my forum warrior opinion. 

What I mean is simple - there's a middle ground that can be met if its figured out. I think it would be shooting the foot to shove costume pieces behind a grind of any form. I think those should remain free and open to all - whenever they can design new costume pieces that is. The exception being NPC costume pieces, but there's no indication they're looking into freeing those up for players. I also think that a grind should not reward cosmetics in general. 

I do not believe, personally, that HC should invest in "something to play towards" for a game like City of Heroes. However, people clearly want something more - so perhaps there is value in eventually figuring out what. More chances for IOs? More reward merits? I doubt that's something people want. Badges? Probably wouldn't be "enough" for some people. I'm no code cracker, but perhaps titles akin to the origin ones or the Yellow/gold title rewards could work. Of course, I'm spitballing options here because CoH was never a "grind grind grind" type of game. It is not a game like World of Warcraft, Final Fantasy, or other MMOs. It has one tradeskill which doesn't have any skill up to it. HC has gotten rid of "do this to unlock x.", and thankfully so.

Perhaps HC may be able to figure out more costume slots. Perhaps not.

It's a little hard to ask for stuff to play towards when CoH was not a game built around the grind and HC has taken out the unneeded "do x to get y" missions (Capes, Auras, costume slots bar the last slot IIRC) so meeting the ask is hard. Perhaps people need to temper their expectations/wants out of a volunteer team that doesn't have the manpower of an actual dev team. Also, leveling grind is a whole other topic before people say anything about that.

Food for thought.

 

I agree with a lot of what you are saying, but not the costume part section.  I don't think there should be an issue with having to unlock some costume parts.  Let's say the Vanguard parts for example.  Why are they available at level 1?  You cannot become a member of Vanguard until I believe 35.  Why would it not make sense to unlock the parts as you do the missions?  This doesn't seem unreasonable to me that you wouldn't be able to wear Vanguard costumes until you were actually a member.

 

I do agree that there should be some middle ground.  I'm not seeing much in this thread though.  It seems when people are making suggestions for reasonable gating or new rewards locked behind some content that they are getting shut down.

[Omega-202]

2 minutes ago, Lockpick said:

 

I agree with a lot of what you are saying, but not the costume part section.  I don't think there should be an issue with having to unlock some costume parts.  Let's say the Vanguard parts for example.  Why are they available at level 1?  You cannot become a member of Vanguard until I believe 35.  Why would it not make sense to unlock the parts as you do the missions?  This doesn't seem unreasonable to me that you wouldn't be able to wear Vanguard costumes until you were actually a member.

 

I do agree that there should be some middle ground.  I'm not seeing much in this thread though.  It seems when people are making suggestions for reasonable gating or new rewards locked behind some content that they are getting shut down.

I have made Vanguard characters that start as part of the Vanguard from level 1, who leveled up using as many Lost and Rikti arcs as possible.  Without the level 1 free costume pieces, that character wouldn't have existed.  

 

What benefit is there for YOU to have made MY character concept unworkable?  Seems selfish.  

[Lockpick]

2 minutes ago, Omega-202 said:

I think a P2W vendor alternative should be available for the accolades, if you've unlocked them on one character already.  I think that it's too grindy as is, and its a disincentive for me when I want to make a new alt.  Let me pay 20 mil/accolade to the P2W and get them right away, if I so choose.

 

With the way the game is set up, you don't need a team for any of the TFs.  I've solo'd or duo'd the whole TF Commader set anyway, so I don't see any reason we should be driving people to form teams to do it.  

I honestly wasn't expecting that response.  No wonder there is no middle ground to be found.  It looks like the opinions are to far apart to get to a middle ground.

 

I do agree with you on the soloing aspect.  I sometimes solo both Synapse and Citadel on occasion.  I'm not a fan of either TF and do them becasue I want the accolade.  I don't think I would want to be able to buy the accolade though.

[Omega-202]

9 minutes ago, Lockpick said:

I honestly wasn't expecting that response.  No wonder there is no middle ground to be found.  It looks like the opinions are to far apart to get to a middle ground.

 

I do agree with you on the soloing aspect.  I sometimes solo both Synapse and Citadel on occasion.  I'm not a fan of either TF and do them becasue I want the accolade.  I don't think I would want to be able to buy the accolade though.

We have the middle ground as it is.  As you see, if I had my druthers, I'd push it further the other way.  But, I am not one to stomp my feet and demand that everyone play by my rules, like some people.  

[Luminara]

2 hours ago, Solarverse said:

Simple answer, if I felt like it were a chore, I wouldn't be playing at all.

 

That's an important distinction.  We don't all define "work" in the same way.  For some, just leveling up is "work".  For others, nothing is "work" until it's so grindy and repetitive that even the most dedicated player won't do it.

 

Most of us don't want to work a second job in a digital universe.  We put our XX hours in every week, we put up with the real life grind, we just want to kick back when we're playing.

 

Perhaps some people need a job, even in video games?  It's... what relaxes them, I suppose?  I don't know.  But gates represent a job that they can do, and they want that, it seems.

 

Maybe that's the middle ground.  Not Day Jobs, that's just a system designed to reward roleplay.  Job jobs.  Maybe something like appointments to positions.  Like... when a player reaches a milestone, having defeated a specific enemy, or acquired a certain collection of souvenirs or badges, the player is appointed as a Watcher or Commander or Investigator or something.  And with the appointment comes the responsibility of maintaining the position.  Maybe running X radio missions against a certain enemy group, or going to Ouroboros and running an arc to "protect the timeline".  As long as they continue to do their "job", they retain the position, and concurrently, the title and whatever benefits it might offer (maybe an alternative means of earning Day Job charges/time?).  Something players can opt into or out of at any time, to provide that job for the people who want it, without forcing a job on those who don't.

[Lockpick]

1 minute ago, Omega-202 said:

I have made Vanguard characters that start as part of the Vanguard from level 1, who leveled up using as many Lost and Rikti arcs as possible.  Without the level 1 free costume pieces, that character wouldn't have existed.  

 

What benefit is there for YOU to have made MY character concept unworkable?  Seems selfish.  

I can always count on you to attack people.  I find it ironic that in one breath you say you have more respect for people that seem nice and in the next breath you are calling me selfish for expressing an opinion. 

 

As to your specific question, it doesn't benefit me at all how you play your character.

 

However, from a lore perspective, I believe that someone cannot become a member of Vanguard until that character gets the Member of Vanguard badge.  It seems reasonable that if someone wanted to be a member of Vanguard they would have to earn a spot and then the parts would be unlocked.  It seems reasonable to me that Vanguard wouldn't just let any level 1 character in.

 

Before I joined the Army I wanted to be a Ranger.  Becoming a Ranger required me to join the Army, pass Basic Training, Pass Advanced Infantry Training, pass Airborne School, pass the Ranger Indoctrination Program, join the Ranger regiment, compete for a Ranger school slot, and then pass Ranger school to earn my Ranger tab.  That is a logical progression.  I do not believe it is unreasonable to have some instances of that type progression in the game as long as it is limited and everyone has the ability to complete the accomplishment.

 

1 minute ago, Omega-202 said:

We have the middle ground as it is.  As you see, if I had my druthers, I'd push it further the other way.  But, I am not one to stomp my feet and demand that everyone play by my rules, like some people.  

 

Why is that people expressing an opinion and making suggestions for additional rewards behind certain accomplishments are "stomping their feet and demanding everyone play by their rules"? 

 

I understand your opinion.  My opinion is different.  I'm not attacking you for your opinion and it would be refreshing if you could restrain yourself from attacking others for their opinions.