Strong ST w decent AoE?

[brasilgringo]

20 hours ago, beradical said:

Wait, you're opening with Savage Leap? I've been opening with Ball Lighting for the crits. Does SL crit from hide? I played around on 1 mish hitting groups with each AoE from hide and only BL seemed to crit, I didn't see any crit text from Savage Leap, Shield Charge or Judgement.

Savage leap from far away (and maybe in Hide) gives 3 stacks and fast AS gives 2, so you can instantly get 5 stacks to power your Rending Flurry then followed by Ball Lightning.   Boom.   You lose the guaranteed Ball crit but you get the big expanded 5-stack powered RF. 

Edited November 14, 2020 by brasilgringo

[brasilgringo]

20 hours ago, beradical said:

Well, I just ran back to back to back ITFs with my Sav/Shld Stalker, Fire/Fire Blaster and Fire/Kin Corr. Running the Corr last, it was certainly underwhelming, but with fulcrum shift maxed and scourge in full force, he can still put out some monster dps, esp for a support toon. To my surprise the Stalker really shined, Savage Leap rech is so fast you can use it all the time. His ST is really solid once settled on his target. Hemorrhage from hide with 5 stacks is a beast, plus AS and snipe. That 1-2-3 combo hits harder than my Blasters big 1-2 combo of Blazing Bolt + Blaze. The difference is the Blaster focuses on the AV and everyone else just magically disappears while I keep all 4 PBAoE dots rolling and it slowly accumulates into just insane melee dps.

 

I haven't worked out how to optimize frenzy yet, especially with Rending Flurry, still can't reliably get it frenzied when I want it. I'm using Savage Leap in ST fights for the +3 frenzy which works really well, but the entire set is just outrageously endurance heavy and I consistently detoggle. Agility is only T2 so hopefully will improve at T4, but if not I'll try Hybrid Support for the passive End Redux, at least it still gives a +dmg +acc boost. Hopefully I can fix it and go Assault - QUESTION - would I go Core (stacking dmg boost) or Radial (double hit)?

 

Lastly, there is no question, none of my toons makes mobs run like my Blaster. Extremely frustrating. I think it has to be Rain of Fire, Hot Feet and/or Burn - I suspect they are running from the area of effect, not me, because it isn't only when health is low. Mother F'ing Romulus would not hold still in either fight, and I don't consider him all that squirmy. I went Mace for SS, so I might need to make room for Web Env for the AoE immob.

 

So a massive thank you to all of you. When I rolled the blaster I had no idea he'd ruin me, and make all other toons feel weak and boring. But this Sav/Shld is a ton of fun, and I feel like he makes a noticeable contribution to an 8-person team. He is someone I will consistently want to break out and play.

Savage Leap from range gives +3 like you said and then AS gives +2 so you hit 5.   You just have to make sure you're far enough away to get the full +3 from SL.

[beradical]

4 minutes ago, brasilgringo said:

Savage leap from far away (and maybe in Hide) gives 3 stacks and AS gives 2, so you can instantly get 5 stacks to power your Rending Flurry then followed by Ball Lightning.   Boom.   You lose the guaranteed Ball crit but you get the big expanded 5-stack powered RF. 

Ok got it. TY for explaining, I'm slowly understanding the mechanics of savage...sounds like I have been wasting a lot of frenzy and endurance not stacking the attacks up right.

[InvaderStych]

1 hour ago, beradical said:

I'm slowly understanding the mechanics of savage

 

So Say We All.

 

Savage, and Leap in particular has some interesting mechanics.  Here's a fun fact about how Leap works (not certain if adjustments in current beta change this dynamic) with Assault Hybrid "Double-Hit" confirmed by the incomparable @Bopper

 

 

Did that testing on my Sav/WP brute.  I would expect the same behavior from Scrapper/Stalker/Tank versions.  Not familiar enough with the Domi version, but I assume the same since it is also targeted.

 

Now, if that is worth keeping Radial over Core in overall DPS over time?  I have no earthly idea.  I kept it on the brute for that little extra single-target proc damage from Leap.

 

On 6/16/2020 at 1:21 AM, Bopper said:

You will notice the bigger number (149.19) is 4x bigger than the smaller number (37.29). You will also notice the Area Factor of the PBAoE effect is 1+0.15 x 20' = 4.00. What I believe is happening, because your attack targets a ST to teleport, the damage is being calculated for the intended target using an Area Factor of 1. Then when you teleport you execute the PBAoE effect that has an AreaFactor of 4 which divides the damage by 4.

 

So it appears this is not a bug, but I'm not sure if it's working as intended. As far as I know, the Teleport does not do damage, so I don't know what the Assault would proc from that effect. But I also don't see getting two double hits on your intended target, so I suppose it is working as intended (or you got very unlucky to miss what would be a 90% chance to proc). Hope that helps.

Edited November 14, 2020 by InvaderStych

[beradical]

12 hours ago, InvaderStych said:

Savage, and Leap in particular has some interesting mechanics.

So if I'm reading that entire thread correctly, the unique mechanics of how the teleport works seems to give Savage Leap a chance to double proc, which in turn means that Assault Radial can also double proc. Which is awesome.

 

The question you ended on is whether that is worth it, considering a Stalker's high damage tend and the sets AoE heavy powers both lean towards Assault Core.

 

I had this exact dilemma with the Elec/Shield Stalker this toon is replacing - I could easily cap the 5 stacks of Assault Core, consistently, but the telenukes and chain induction didn't benefit from that, only base damage hit other mobs. And AS was heavily proc'd, so the proc dmg wouldn't scale. Plus Elec attacks were generally slow rech & cast time so work well with procs. So I ended up going with radial.

 

For this one, I was assuming I'd go radial, but now I'm looking at some alternative spec'ing options using less procs, which would lend itself to Core, considering Sav attacks are fast, dmg cap is high, and there is plenty of AoE to keep stacks high. Who knows, Both Savage and Hybrid Assault are basically black magic to me.

[InvaderStych]

1 hour ago, beradical said:

So if I'm reading that entire thread correctly, the unique mechanics of how the teleport works seems to give Savage Leap a chance to double proc, which in turn means that Assault Radial can also double proc. Which is awesome.

 

Well, not exactly.  It doesn't hit twice on the teleport target, it just hits for more damage because area mod = 1 instead of 4.  I ran logs on it for a while and made sure it was only hitting once on that target.  Basically there are two triggers:

 

This one is the teleport:

 

Quote

2020-06-19 09:44:08 HIT Eclipse Nightwolf Champion! Your Savage Leap power is autohit.

 

And this one is the AoE damage trigger:

 

Quote

2020-06-19 09:44:08 HIT Eclipse Nightwolf Champion! Your Savage Leap AoE power had a 95.00% chance to hit, you rolled a 86.63.

 

The AoE power does hit the tele-target, but Hybrid's extra energy damage only fires from the auto-hit on that target, and doesn't trigger with the AoE hit.

 

Somewhere buried in the patch notes there's a comment about procs and auto-hit powers that aren't damaging.  I'd have to dig through to find it again.  No clue if that change will alter the mechanics on the auto-hit teleport component.

 

1 hour ago, beradical said:

For this one, I was assuming I'd go radial, but now I'm looking at some alternative spec'ing options using less procs, which would lend itself to Core, considering Sav attacks are fast, dmg cap is high, and there is plenty of AoE to keep stacks high. Who knows, Both Savage and Hybrid Assault are basically black magic to me.

 

Yeah, major black magic.  Really grateful there are folks on the boards who understand the underlying code and math better than us mere mortals. But yeah, the general advice is that if you're at your damage cap normally (popping reds while farming, for example), go Radial, if not, go Core.

 

Another consideration on my Brute was getting another damage type (Energy) to balance out against enemies with high lethal resists.  Bots, for example, drop a lot faster with Radial than they did with Core on the same toon.

 

 

Edit:  I found the beta patch note that I was referencing:

 

(If am reading this right, the underlying math with respect to the different Area Factors shouldn't change, just the % chance to fire.  Of course since Savage is a bit of "Black Box" who knows if this change is even relevant)

 

Quote

 

Powers & Enhancements Bug Fixes

 

• Procs that inflict damage should no longer auto-hit even if slotted in powers that auto-hit foes. This applies to:
  • Enhancements
  • Incarnate: Hybrid
  • Note: this already applied to Incarnate Interface procs, nothing changes there

 

 

 

Edited November 14, 2020 by InvaderStych

[beradical]

Interesting, since the changes don't affect area, presumably Savage Leap won't be impacted. I'm guessing Core vs Radial comes down to whether you want that bigger opening burst that SL + Radial can deliver, or overall dps on a fast AoE set + Core can leverage. Over the course of multiple TFs and Trials, some hitting damage cap and some not, I bet the overall differences are fairly negligible, and who doesn't want to open with a heavy hitting SL.

 

Thank you for this information @InvaderStych

[Onlyasandwich]

On 11/10/2020 at 10:52 PM, beradical said:

So you are all collectively saying that the grass isn't greener on the scrapper side. Well, based on the feedback, I rolled a Sav/Shld Stalker and PL'd to 50, unlocked incarnates and fully enhanced. Not too shabby for a day's "work".

 

I am going to roll a tougher offtank for my arsenal, but I decided I wanted to try out some various powersets first. I need to see Tanker's AoE for myself, I'm still super suspicious. I actually rolled and PL'd a WM/Bio scrapper yesterday, but then this fricken @ZorkNemesismentioned Dark, and I have never played that set on anything. I love the aesthetics and concept, but on paper it always looked meh. But now I think I should try it out on Beta as well, pit against Tanker and WM/Bio and see which I like. If Dark can hold a candle to the other sets I might roll a Dark Scrapper once it goes live.

 

Until then I'm gonna see first hand what the hype about Sav/Shld is, and maybe it will really help me love Stalker again. No offense to my once loved Elec/Shld and StJ/SR, but I kinda need both AoE & ST.

 

One thing I don't think has been mentioned here - not only are Tanker aoes larger, but they also have a higher target cap. Most cones that are capped at 5 on scrappers/stalkers are capped at 10 for Tankers. Most PBAoEs normally capped at 10 are increased to 16.  This makes an enormous difference in more crowded content. 

 

Also, although this is less relevant on teams, the inherent taunt on most attacks is a great quality of life improvement when you are churning through tough crowds. Mobs won't trigger the damage fleeing ai, and you can keep everything easily packed tight to kill. On shield/ specifically, you have a heck of a lot less work to do softcapping defense, as your base numbers are higher. This leaves plenty of extra slots for proccing your secondary out. 

 

Ultimately, a Tanker isn't going to provide the raw up-front damage numbers of blaster/scrapper/stalker, but can compete well in many situations with a smoother overall play experience. 

 

I see that you have chosen a different direction with this most recent character. I would encourage you to give Tankers a try some time. Like many of the other folks in this thread, I'm a huge War Mace fan. a Shield/Mace may be a fun starting point for you.  

Edited November 15, 2020 by Onlyasandwich

[Apparition]

On 11/10/2020 at 12:02 PM, Sovera said:

Claws for great ST and great AoE. Can't go wrong with Claws/Bio. Shockwave does a lot to help with survival.

 

If I can tempt you to the side of Tankers then Fire/Claws is something I've waxed poetic about.

 

The problem with Claws is lethal damage.  I like the looks of it, and I like the feel of it... but all of the lethal damage resistance just makes me want to play something else.

[InvaderStych]

45 minutes ago, Apparition said:

 

The problem with Claws is lethal damage.  I like the looks of it, and I like the feel of it... but all of the lethal damage resistance just makes me want to play something else.

 

I'm always looking for ways around such things because I really enjoy the weapon sets on Scrappers/Brutes - which means mostly smashing and lethal damage.  Count Savage in the Lethal Damage camp as well.  There might be some Smashing in there, can't recall.

 

Claws, for example, can slot all 3 -Res procs.  How those fit into the good chains on claws I couldn't say, but it's something that makes me want to roll one. FotG is available at lvl 7, the other two at lvl 17.  So not just an endgame thing either.  I wish I could find a good way to slot the third one on my Kat/Rad, but stacking 2 of them happens often enough to be very useful.  Damage from the secondary is another good option; /Fire, /Dark, /Rad, /Elec, etc ... Not /Ice though because it's aura is just more lethal dmg. I suppose /Bio has -Res in an aura, but it doesn't look very strong.

 

I've been running an analyzer on my Psi/SD to explore foe resistances a bit - turns out the "OMG Too Much Resistance to Psi to be useful" thing that people have against the set is a bit hyperbolic.  It's out there, but sometimes not where you'd expect.  Praetorian Clockwork (AM's, Neurons, and the ones that roll with IDF groups), for example, have none.  IDF Soldiers (Lts and higher, maybe minions, can't remember during coffee) had 30% when I scanned them, but they had 30% to everything so I suspect there was a bubble-pet on the field. Council bots resist it, as expected, but they crumble against smashing.  Wolves resist everything pretty equally, and vamps seem to be vulnerable to psi - I'd have to scan one.  CoT "Ghosts" are definitely weak against Psi.  Seers resist it, naturally, and that can be problematic, but they fall to smashing/lethal as well as anything else.

 

So, even before accounting for Interface and Assault Radial (Energy dmg), there lots of ways to mitigate the whole resistance thing.  Considering that most builds that can slot -Res probably should, I don't see it as losing slots against other sets that "might not have to slot that way."  Or ... you know what I mean, lol.  Coffee; more is required.

 

 

A lot of times, on a Scrapper, the Big Orange Number effect is enough to overwhelm the typed resistance anyway, outside of Hard Targets.  Claws though, 3 chances to stack -Res against a Hard Target ... Hmm ...  BRB, time to think of a reason to roll Claws/Something. 😄

[Carnifax]

On 11/8/2020 at 11:56 PM, beradical said:

Ice looks weak on AoE, can you proc out ice patch, or just frost and frozen aura for AoE?

Frozen Aura is a beast of a thing and Frost is excellent too. AOE-wise Ice isn't that bad at all. 

 

Ice has two main issues : Two of the single target attacks are poopy (Fists and Greater Ice Sword). I ignored Fists and took Crosspunch instead of GIS. The other "issue" is that Ice doesn't feel too crunchy compared to something like War Mace. 

[Sovera]

4 hours ago, Apparition said:

 

The problem with Claws is lethal damage.  I like the looks of it, and I like the feel of it... but all of the lethal damage resistance just makes me want to play something else.

I'll agree with you, but, though I haven't kept track, I don't think I've found a non Titan Weapons or Super-Strengh Tanker that could do better time than my 2:45 on a pylon (someone chime in if so in case I'm incorrect). Katana was pretty close by a handful of seconds, but it's lethal damage as well.

 

On a target that is S/L resistant it just means I reach the same times as other sets who don't suffer from using lethal to do damage, and then I'll do better once we hit damage neutral mobs.

[Haijinx]

10 hours ago, Apparition said:

 

The problem with Claws is lethal damage.  I like the looks of it, and I like the feel of it... but all of the lethal damage resistance just makes me want to play something else.

Nearly all the good sets are smashing or lethal.