Squishies Epic Armors grant 3 Mag Protection?

[Starforge]

1 minute ago, arthurh35353 said:

what about level 1 through 49

Use Break Frees.

[Apparition]

1 minute ago, arthurh35353 said:

And, once again, what about level 1 through 49 when you can't have Clarion? Oh, wait, those levels don't matter.

  

Is that really unbalanced? Or is that just your kneejerk reaction?

 

Considering one lets you have the powers of Tyrant, yes, they're completely unbalanced.

[Ruin Mage]

Epic Armors can't be granted till the late 30s or into the 40s - I forget which.

If Break Frees are that hard to carry, you're playing the wrong game.

[arthurh35353]

14 minutes ago, Apparition said:

Considering one lets you have the powers of Tyrant, yes, they're completely unbalanced.

So, just to make sure I'm reading this right, +4 mag protection (1/2 to 1/3rd of what scrappers and tanks get) is now the power Tyrant at +8 Incarnate levels?
-_-

12 minutes ago, Shadeknight said:

Epic Armors can't be granted till the late 30s or into the 40s - I forget which.

If Break Frees are that hard to carry, you're playing the wrong game.

I believe that has been adjusted to level 35 or so.

Edited January 4, 2021 by arthurh35353

[Ruin Mage]

Still my point stands.
 

[arthurh35353]

8 minutes ago, Shadeknight said:

Still my point stands.

Not really. 15 levels (that actually takes about the same amount of time to level as the previous 35) is not the same. Especially as you start to run into more and more mezzing at the higher levels.

[Starforge]

1 minute ago, arthurh35353 said:

Especially as you start to run into more and more mezzing at the higher levels.

Well one of the ways to get around that is prepare for the enemies you're facing. You can do that in a multitude of ways: Have teammates helping, use inspirations, slot better, buy amplifiers, etc.

[arthurh35353]

7 minutes ago, Starforge said:

Well one of the ways to get around that is prepare for the enemies you're facing. You can do that in a multitude of ways: Have teammates helping, use inspirations, slot better, buy amplifiers, etc.

Pay a squishie tax! No soloing for you, second class citizen! Buy Inspirations that shows the problem!

[Starforge]

Just now, arthurh35353 said:

Buy Inspirations that shows the problem!

As far as I'm aware you can still earn random inspirations from defeating enemies and you can even combine three of the same inspiration into a different one you might need more. 

 

3 minutes ago, arthurh35353 said:

Pay a squishie tax! No soloing for you, second class citizen! Buy Inspirations that shows the problem!

Well, as someone that has solo'd a PB to 50 way back on live before the QoL changes we have currently, this comment holds no water. If you are so uptight about spending a piddling amount of influence on inspirations that will solve the issue that you're having, I don't know what to tell you. Read the pages of people giving the same suggestions I have throughout this thread and hope one infiltrates your brain.

[AerialAssault]

I have to question whether this would actually be very useful. Most Mez used by enemies is Mag 3, which means all it would take is a second Mez of the same type, and you'd be toast.

 

It only really seems useful to those squishies which have achieved soft-cap. I find it very curious that you think a Break Free is too much effort, or that a Defence Amplifier is too much investment, when it would take significantly more to reach soft-cap on AT's which do not have inherent Defence powers. If you do not have near soft-cap defence, the chances of a follow up Mez locking you down (and de-toggling/suppressing your powers) are much higher. That extra protection might give you enough time to pop a Break Free if your poor, misshapen fingers can complete the herculean task of pressing a button. But I sincerely doubt it would enable you to fight without caution, which, let's be honest, is the aim here.

 

Let's not forget, at level 35 (when you get access to your EPP/PPP), most enemy groups are going to have some form of Mez even at a Minion level. They're also not 'mere street goons', they're trained, experienced & deadly villains with superpowers of their own. They (as a group) are equivalent in power to you, therefore, you should be cautious when fighting them. I should also point out, that most of the powers that would get this Mez Protection are actually available at level 41 (although for Patrons it's level 35, whoever said there were no advantages to being evil??). At this stage, you're definitely facing the major threats of the world. They wouldn't be major threats if their powers couldn't even stop one 'squishy' hero for five seconds, would they?

 

If you are getting comprehensively spanked each time, perhaps that's an indicator that you're not as good as you thought, and should turn down the difficulty. If you're already at -1/x0, I have no easy way of saying this but, maybe you're just bad at the game?

[arthurh35353]

I have no idea why you think not getting mezzed on a first attack is somehow only useful on soft-capped defense, which was never mentioned or pointed out.

[MsSmart]

I support the concept, but the mag protection should be 4

 

When you look at a tanker solo mode, why does it need +12 mag protection? It is an awful overkill, now when in a team, that high level mag protection can make sense, but why not make them depend on the defender to boost it (clear mind, O2, etc.) So they can attain group wise protection? Why give 12 mag to a tank and not make them dependent on the defender as the defender is forced to be to dependent on a melee? (I use defender as a sample, truly all the non-melee have this forced vulnerability)

 

In fact why would any class for solo purposes need more than MAG 4 protection?

 

Why are we mixing solo and group needs? Should it not be all classes has to have the same survivability baseline for solo?

 

A Tank has fabulous protections (defenses, resistances, res to debuff, status effect protection) and still manages to have moderate damage capability

Contrast that to a Defender, who has essentially none of the tank's protections, their buff powers do not affect them (what class has powers that does not work on them but solely on others), and then to add insult over injury their damage is nurfed so that their damage is almost as good as a tanker. I fail to see the game balance. I am told that debuff  abilities makes up for this, which is sadly a sad excuse. Lets talk Accuracy debuff: The chance to hit is the creatures base ACC + acc buffs; the acc debuff deduces from acc buff in the previous equation, so far so good, but guess what is the problem? The amount that can be deduced from the base ACC is capped to 5% (0.05), so no matter how hard you acc debuff an enemy your debuff is not going to amount to much. So debuff as a great equalizer is simply an illusion.

 

Now there is a point of differentiation, I am all for it, but as long as it is done with an intelligent balance and not in a capricious manner.

 

I personally do agree that all classes should be build for group operation, without the need to be dependent on another class to be successful. In the live days, no group would dare do a TF without a tank or healer/buffer. The overall inter-class dependency made putting groups together to do a TF in the live days tedious and time consuming. So how do we have class balance?

 

First it does not have to be binary, but allow for shades of grey.

 

So I would propose to use the class limit caps to make this differentiation logical and balanced

 

Resistance to damage and debuff:

The key is the class caps, which should be as follows:

 

Tank: Resistance Cap 95%

Brute: Resistance Cap: 85%

Scraper/Sentinel/Stalker: Resistance Cap 75%

All Others: Resistance Cap: 65%

 

Defense:

Tank: Defense Cap 25%

Brute: Defense Cap 35%

Scraper/Sentinel/Stalker: Defense Cap 45%

All others: Defense Cap 55%

 

Status Effect:

Tank: MAG 12

Brute: MAG 10

Scraper/Sentinel/Stalker: MAG 8

All others: MAG 4

 

Note that debuff is not truly effective for example Accuracy Debuff looks good in paper but in practice it is a joke, take the to hit equation used for both mobs and players: chance to hit is Base Accuracy + ACC buffs, the total chance to hit can never be less than 5%, and the debuffing of the accuracy buff of a target can never exceed -5%. (which is what players affect). So take a base attack at 1.25 but can increase depending if the creature is a minion to AV, level differences too.  and the best a player can debuff is 5% pragmatically, using the low base of 1.25 it would drop to 1.20 so we go from a 25% to be hit ) prior to defense being applied to 20%. so the difference in acc is minimal. The other area is control, contral can lock down a target and render it helpless after one or more applications, so the damagge output of controllers/dominators need to address this.

 

Tank: Max Damage is Moderate

Brute: Max Damage is High

Scraper/Sentinel/Stalker: Max Damage is Very High

All others: Max Damage is Superior

Blaster: Max damage is Extreme

 

Note that the blaster lacks the environmental abilities of the defender, controller and other support types.

 

I was going to make a difference between melee and ranged damage, but the old live days where ranged really did make a difference, is not at this time true;  just about all creatures I have encountered have a balance between melee and ranged attacks, some have very strong melee but there some who does have very strong ranged attacks (a melee with their great protections would not likely notice this) and lastly the ranged of the mobs attacks can be at the snipe range or often around 100 feet. So I really could not justify going through the math of figuring the difference. Once again, the damage limitations are managed through class caps.

 

The above would provide a fair balance among the classes, and actually not be so difficult to implement since class caps are already in use; all it is required is to change what does caps are...

 

Sue

 

[Starforge]

1 minute ago, MsSmart said:

Why are we mixing solo and group needs? Should it not be all classes has to have the same survivability baseline for solo?

No, because the different ATs all serve different purposes. If everything is the same, why bother having choices at all?

[Alchemystic]

1 hour ago, arthurh35353 said:

Is that really unbalanced? Or is that just your kneejerk reaction?

It's an observation.

They make constant changes to the game with little care or consideration about the long-term effects, and then when they become apparent they refuse to do any damage control

[MsSmart]

Just now, Starforge said:

No, because the different ATs all serve different purposes. If everything is the same, why bother having choices at all?

How are they the same?, I made clear differentiations among them that has real balance. Please show me how I made them all the same? pleae

[Starforge]

Just now, MsSmart said:

How are they the same?, I made clear differentiations among them that has real balance. Please show me how I made them all the same? pleae

I was just responding to your comment of all classes having the same baseline survivability.

[MsSmart]

2 minutes ago, Tyrannical said:

It's an observation.

They make constant changes to the game with little care or consideration about the long-term effects, and then when they become apparent they refuse to do any damage control

Study my logics, my premises, how can you say it is a knee-jerk-reaction? Please show me how my arguments are irrelevant

[AerialAssault]

Just now, arthurh35353 said:

I have no idea why you think not getting mezzed on a first attack is somehow only useful on soft-capped defense, which was never mentioned or pointed out.

Let me explain:

 

If you are not at soft-cap, let's imagine the dread scenario that you in-fact have no defence, then there is literally nothing stopping another enemy from applying another Mez, probably of the same type, and then you're Mezzed. Now, if you're at +0/x1, this is probably not an issue. But if you're at x4, it's not a matter of If, but When, you get Mezzed, then you're back at step one.

 

Since this is at level 41 (or 35, if you're evil), most, if not all enemies, have some form of Mez. Let's imagine you're facing Malta, and you have Mag 4 Stun Protection, but no defence. You are hit by a Taser, that most Malta minions have. Now, if any other stun hits you, you are now stunned. Malta use a lot of stuns, so if even a single minion, lieutenant or boss so much as tickles you with a stun, you may as well never have had that protection in the first place.

 

Funnily enough, not getting Mezzed on the first attack would be really helpful to, you guessed it, use a Break Free! We've come full circle! Hooray!

[arcane]

As someone with dozens of ranged/squishy 50’s that have never once ultimately found Clarion Core necessary, it’s definitely a no from me. Blanket buffs should be for cases where they’re needed, not handed out like candy every time someone might need to learn to play this game effectively.

[Apparition]

12 minutes ago, MsSmart said:

I support the concept, but the mag protection should be 4

 

When you look at a tanker solo mode, why does it need +12 mag protection? It is an awful overkill, now when in a team, that high level mag protection can make sense, but why not make them depend on the defender to boost it (clear mind, O2, etc.) So they can attain group wise protection? Why give 12 mag to a tank and not make them dependent on the defender as the defender is forced to be to dependent on a melee? (I use defender as a sample, truly all the non-melee have this forced vulnerability)

 

That's a false argument.  No non-melee AT is forced to be dependent on a melee.

 

 

I did a +4 ITF a couple of nights ago on a Dual Pistols/Dark Miasma Corruptor with a Tanker and two Brutes on the team.  On the last mission, who tanked Romulus?  I did.  I used Darkest Night and pulled him to a specific corner, where he happily kept wailing on me and missed the entire time.  That's just one example.  I've tanked AVs and GMs plenty of times on Blasters and other "squishy" ATs.

 

FWIW, there's no such thing as "Squishy" in City of Heroes anymore.  It's an old term that no longer holds relevance in the game.

Edited January 4, 2021 by Apparition

[Alchemystic]

7 minutes ago, MsSmart said:

Study my logics, my premises, how can you say it is a knee-jerk-reaction? Please show me how my arguments are irrelevant

Did you quote the wrong person? I don't follow.

[Davy]

imagine being bad at blaster

[Hyperstrike]

4 hours ago, arthurh35353 said:

You seem to be the only that is mentioning +4x8 for some reason.

 

You were the one who talked about +0x1

 

3 hours ago, arthurh35353 said:

I've found that Clarion doesn't seem to work for 49 levels and that you never have enough break frees.

 

Maybe next we'll just implement "Easy Street" mode.

Or you could just.  Y'know, get yourself PL'ed.

 

2 hours ago, arthurh35353 said:

Continually buying inspirations to cover a problem in a build/AT usually is proof of a problem, not a solution.

"Continually" buying them DOES indicate a problem.

User error.

 

2 hours ago, Infinitum said:

If something like that were added to only one pool to make it a choice - a hard choice - I don't see the harm in it because I take that on all my trollers.

No, because then you get people referring to the power(s) as "mandatory".

 

 

2 hours ago, arthurh35353 said:

But why shouldn't they? Is there a good reason? Why should one armor in the controller set have that benefit and others not? 

 

Let's turn that around. If Psychic Mastery had +mezz protection against fear/confuse *and* hold/stun (and the other Controller's only had hold/stun) would that make more sense or less?

Because there should be some form of justification.  Not just "I want it."

At least with Psychic Mastery, an argument could be made that specializing with psychic powers would give you a bit of resistance.

 

 

1 hour ago, arthurh35353 said:

And yet the other servers have something of the like for all players. So adding +4 mezz protection to all epic armors is obviously not super huge in outlay either. 

 

You are basically saying its not worth any effort at all, even though people obviously do care about it.

Then play on the other servers that're doing what you want.  Problem solved.

As for "Not super-huge in outlay."

#StandardCodeRant

 

 

1 hour ago, arthurh35353 said:

And, once again, what about level 1 through 49 when you can't have Clarion? Oh, wait, those levels don't matter.

  

Is that really unbalanced? Or is that just your kneejerk reaction?

It's really unbalanced.  No that's not just knee-jerk.

You're welcome!

[Hyperstrike]

1 hour ago, arthurh35353 said:

So, just to make sure I'm reading this right, +4 mag protection (1/2 to 1/3rd of what scrappers and tanks get) is now the power Tyrant at +8 Incarnate levels?
-_-

I believe that has been adjusted to level 35 or so.

No.  You're holding up other servers as examples and asking "are THEY unbalanced"?

We're trying to tell you YES.

And we keep trying to tell you.  You're not half or one-third a scrapper or tank.

The risk of getting mezzed is part of the game design.

[GM Kaiju]

The conversation has become an unproductive argument. Topic locked.