Most Unstoppable Tank

[Erratic1]

I think the problems with the entire, "shouldn't be stealthing thing" is that if you're going that way Scrappers and Brutes, who are there to deal damage, shouldn't be sneaking around either--things know you're there when you're sinking claws or swords into them. And just as sneaking around is used to get into position to deal damage so too sneaking around can be used to get into position to draw aggro (I'm now behind the guys so they will all turn and face me, for example).

[Infinitum]

9 minutes ago, Hyperstrike said:

Not...QUITE...

Dead ARRESTED! enemies deal zero damage.  Either potential or in actuality.

Yeah but thats not what we are talking about - I never said it wasnt effective, but thats not what makes shield strong.

[Infinitum]

2 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

I think the problems with the entire, "shouldn't be stealthing thing" is that if you're going that way Scrappers and Brutes, who are there to deal damage, shouldn't be sneaking around either--things know you're there when you're sinking claws or swords into them. And just as sneaking around is used to get into position to deal damage so too sneaking around can be used to get into position to draw aggro (I'm now behind the guys so they will all turn and face me, for example).

If your agro is good enough - doesnt matter where you appear they wont attack anyone else - run through the whole map you will drag them with you.

 

Tanker tools and roles are at odds with close to hide level stealthing - they will negate it quickly.

[Max Firepower]

Re: Tanker ‘stealth’

 

I was running my incarnate SR/Claws Tanker with a mixed team on a TF, and we were hitting a time crunch on a TF.  The general lamentation of ‘nobody can stealth to the end and assemble...’

 

I did a quick check and realized I had the ATT power, so I volunteered to go ahead and TP somewhere close.  I also reminded our one Future Frostfire Story (FFS for short) member not to follow me and I forged ahead, using Reveal to pick a path to each level.  I think I had to go up at least 4 levels, and several of the maps were huge.  We were at +4/x8, and I was able to ATT the six standing members - and FFS’s body - about one room from the end.  It saved us probably 20 minutes.

 

I seldom use that technique, but I was a bit tickled to see how effective it was to just roll through everything to find a quiet elevator area to do my thing.

[Infinitum]

23 minutes ago, Max Firepower said:

Re: Tanker ‘stealth’

 

I was running my incarnate SR/Claws Tanker with a mixed team on a TF, and we were hitting a time crunch on a TF.  The general lamentation of ‘nobody can stealth to the end and assemble...’

 

I did a quick check and realized I had the ATT power, so I volunteered to go ahead and TP somewhere close.  I also reminded our one Future Frostfire Story (FFS for short) member not to follow me and I forged ahead, using Reveal to pick a path to each level.  I think I had to go up at least 4 levels, and several of the maps were huge.  We were at +4/x8, and I was able to ATT the six standing members - and FFS’s body - about one room from the end.  It saved us probably 20 minutes.

 

I seldom use that technique, but I was a bit tickled to see how effective it was to just roll through everything to find a quiet elevator area to do my thing.

As a tanker,  you can do that with hover and still be ok.  Stealth really didn't have a lot to do with the ability to do that - I do it all the time too because I know nothing can kill me.

[Dark Dove]

1 hour ago, Infinitum said:

Correct - but stealth in terms of Hide doesnt work - and cant work in the role or tools of a tanker,

 

Stealth in terms of defense can.

 

Any agro aura you have or damage aura will give your position away immediately - and thats the way you should want it if you are playing the role of a tanker.

 

anything else is playing a role - but it isnt a tanker role - and there is nothing wrong with that.

Stealth works fine as intended.  No stealth works in combat.  Again, you aren't making any sense.

 

It doesn't matter if you're a tanker or a stalker, stealth doesn't work in combat.  I don't see how that even has anything to do with the conversation about having the Cloak powers in the power sets.  Are you saying Stalkers shouldn't have it either, since they can't DPS and remain hidden at all times?  You're not really talking about anything at this point.

 

I guess the answer to your post is, duh?

 

A tanker with stealth is still a tanker.

 

The armor set Cloak powers help define the sets and offer incentives to play them.

 

That is all.

[Erratic1]

1 hour ago, Infinitum said:

If your agro is good enough - doesnt matter where you appear they wont attack anyone else - run through the whole map you will drag them with you.

 

Tanker tools and roles are at odds with close to hide level stealthing - they will negate it quickly.

 

That first word is the big conditional in the sentence.

 

People have all sorts of skill levels and all sorts of ways to play the game.

[Infinitum]

16 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

 

That first word is the big conditional in the sentence.

 

People have all sorts of skill levels and all sorts of ways to play the game.

Tanker Agro is good enough by default if you choose the power.  no amount of stealth will keep them from seeing you.  thats what makes you a tanker - and if you are doing it any other way you may be playing the AT tanker - but you arent a tanker then.

[Erratic1]

Just now, Infinitum said:

Tanker Agro is good enough by default if you choose the power.  no amount of stealth will keep them from seeing you.  thats what makes you a tanker - and if you are doing it any other way you may be playing the AT tanker - but you arent a tanker then.

 

You keep saying, "no amount of stealth will keep them from seeing you" as if that is somehow meaningful.

 

(1) In combat, not it will not. And? Nobody has said in combat it would.

 

(2) Out of combat it will until you get close enough for some aura (or their perception...think Nemesis) to trigger them.

 

 

As for "...you aren't a tanker then" that is YOUR belief. It is not written as a universal truth.

[Infinitum]

21 minutes ago, Dark Dove said:

Stealth works fine as intended.  No stealth works in combat.  Again, you aren't making any sense.

 

It doesn't matter if you're a tanker or a stalker, stealth doesn't work in combat.  I don't see how that even has anything to do with the conversation about having the Cloak powers in the power sets.  Are you saying Stalkers shouldn't have it either, since they can't DPS and remain hidden at all times?  You're not really talking about anything at this point.

 

I guess the answer to your post is, duh?

 

A tanker with stealth is still a tanker.

 

The armor set Cloak powers help define the sets and offer incentives to play them.

 

That is all.

are you seriously trying to tell me stealth allowed your tanker to go through a map and not get noticed?

 

DIfferent stealth powers allow for different ranges and perceptions to notice you, with a tanker unless you arent playing it like a tanker they will notice you, and your stealth will suppress whether you attack or not.  Stealth by itself is no where near enough even combined with celerity to map stealth and not get noticed unless you detoggle your taunt auras, or dmg auras or both.

 

Take Dark for instance - it may say stealth on CLoak Of Darkness - but it doesnt serve a purpose to hide your way through a map because they will see you if you are playing the tanker to be a tanker.

 

Either way its nothing to run through a map stealth or no stealth without a scratch as a tanker.

 

Stealth isnt what allows you to do that - its being tough.

 

So yeah duh.

[Infinitum]

1 minute ago, Erratic1 said:

 

You keep saying, "no amount of stealth will keep them from seeing you" as if that is somehow meaningful.

 

(1) In combat, not it will not. And? Nobody has said in combat it would.

 

(2) Out of combat it will until you get close enough for some aura (or their perception...think Nemesis) to trigger them.

 

 

As for "...you aren't a tanker then" that is YOUR belief. It is not written as a universal truth.

you really dont know how tanker auras work.  unless you arent using them - then you really dont know how tankers work.

 

Im not sure which one is true at this point.

[Dark Dove]

16 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

are you seriously trying to tell me stealth allowed your tanker to go through a map and not get noticed?

 

DIfferent stealth powers allow for different ranges and perceptions to notice you, with a tanker unless you arent playing it like a tanker they will notice you, and your stealth will suppress whether you attack or not.  Stealth by itself is no where near enough even combined with celerity to map stealth and not get noticed unless you detoggle your taunt auras, or dmg auras or both.

 

Take Dark for instance - it may say stealth on CLoak Of Darkness - but it doesnt serve a purpose to hide your way through a map because they will see you if you are playing the tanker to be a tanker.

 

Either way its nothing to run through a map stealth or no stealth without a scratch as a tanker.

 

Stealth isnt what allows you to do that - its being tough.

 

So yeah duh.

Your way of playing a tanker isn't the same as everyone else's.

 

Stealthing is part of the game, and isn't AT dependent or role dependent. Every mission isn't a PI radio mission where you bash your head against a bunch of council and call it a day. Efficiency is sometimes part of people's goals when playing, and stealthing some aspects of some missions is a desirable method of efficient play.

 

I'm sorry you feel like there is no other way than the way you like to play, but you have to realize everyone else isn't you, and things need to be designed in a way that everyone's needs are addressed, not just your own.

[Infinitum]

13 minutes ago, Dark Dove said:

Your way of playing a tanker isn't the same as everyone else's.

 

Stealthing is part of the game, and isn't AT dependent or role dependent. Every mission isn't a PI radio mission where you bash your head against a bunch of council and call it a day. Efficiency is sometimes part of people's goals when playing, and stealthing some aspects of some missions is a desirable method of efficient play.

 

I'm sorry you feel like there is no other way than the way you like to play, but you have to realize everyone else isn't you, and things need to be designed in a way that everyone's needs are addressed, not just your own.

Ok so you want to go there... Alrighty.  lol

 

 

 

 

Stealth, cloak of darkness, and energy cloak are all 35 ft which means that bosses will see you around 20 ft regardless, attack you, suppress your stealth then your inherant agro in gauntlet and your taunt aura will make everything around you see you.

 

Thats how it works whether you attack or not - you could be careful enough to sneak around - you want to talk effeciency?  lol but that would be slower by a country mile of just running through them because you can survive it.  Trying to not get noticed at 20 ft in mpst maps is the epitome of not being efficient.

 

Stalker hide Will not be noticed - thats how they do it. Thats why of you want to play the stealth game - thats your animal - not a tanker.

 

Now do you understand what im trying to tell you?

Edited January 2, 2021 by Infinitum

[Dark Dove]

2 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Ok so you want to go there... Alrighty.  lol

 

 

 

 

Stealth, cloak of darkness, and energy cloak are all 35 ft which means that bosses will see you around 20 ft regardless, attack you, suppress your stealth then your inherant agro in gauntlet and your taunt aura will make everything around you see you.

 

Thats how it works whether you attack or not - you could be careful enough to sneak around - you want to talk effeciency?  lol but that would be slower by a country mile of just running through them because you can survive it.  Trying to not get noticed at 20 ft in mpst maps is the epitome of not being efficient.

 

Stalker hide Will not be noticed - thats how they do it. Thats why of you want to play the stealth game - thats your animal - not a tanker.

 

Now do you understand what im trying to tell you?

I don't care what you're trying to tell me at this point, it's clear we're talking about different things.  I haven't even mentioned stealth radius, you're going on and on about something completely different than the conversation.  None of this cut/paste information is relevant.  I'm honestly unsure what you're even trying to accomplish now other than deflect from the reality of the original discussion point.

[Infinitum]

1 minute ago, Dark Dove said:

I don't care what you're trying to tell me at this point, it's clear we're talking about different things.  I haven't even mentioned stealth radius, you're going on and on about something completely different than the conversation.  None of this cut/paste information is relevant.  I'm honestly unsure what you're even trying to accomplish now other than deflect from the reality of the original discussion point.

No its the same darn thing - stealth on a tanker isn't efficient aside from the defense buff you get from it - but you aren't going to use stealth, cloak of darkness, or energy cloak to stealth a map. 

 

You cant combine them with stealth either - they are mutually exclusive.

 

Stealth radius is how stealth works - or any power that claims to be a stealth power.

 

Stealth is how close you have to be to be seen.

 

Perception is how far they can see

 

Subtract the Stealth rating from perception thats how close you get before they can see you.

 

Get too close as a tanker in the middle of a mob you then have a gasoline fire for the rest of the map - which as a tanker you should survive either way just running through them instead of tippy toeing around them.

[Dark Dove]

Just now, Infinitum said:

No its the same darn thing - stealth on a tanker isn't efficient aside from the defense buff you get from it - but you aren't going to use stealth, cloak of darkness, or energy cloak to stealth a map. 

 

You cant combine them with stealth either - they are mutually exclusive.

 

Stealth radius is how stealth works - or any power that claims to be a stealth power.

 

Stealth is how close you have to be to be seen.

 

Perception is how far they can see

 

Subtract the Stealth rating from perception thats how close you get before they can see you.

 

Get too close as a tanker in the middle of a mob you then have a gasoline fire for the rest of the map - which as a tanker you should survive either way just running through them instead of tippy toeing around them.

So to address your version of this conversation, I am not implying that the stealth radius from the Tanker powers is pure hide.  Never did imply that.  It isn't important to my argument and so I don't really need to argue this.  People achieve the necessary stealth to actively stealth past mobs through multiple powers, even the pool power titled Stealth requires additional stealth to always get past average mobs.  This isn't part of the argument and doesn't matter though.  What you're talking about is essentially meaningless, because again it isn't a tanker-relevant conversation.  Nothing you are saying leads me to think there is any reason a tanker shouldn't have access to stealth related powers in their primaries. Whatever point you are making is not useful here.  Of course stealth requires an additional stealth IO or superspeed to achieve enough stealth to slide by enemies.  I never even argued that.  You're attacking me as if I did.  I didn't.

 

Find a new angle, you aren't getting anywhere.

[Infinitum]

1 minute ago, Dark Dove said:

So to address your version of this conversation, I am not implying that the stealth radius from the Tanker powers is pure hide.  Never did imply that.  It isn't important to my argument and so I don't really need to argue this.  People achieve the necessary stealth to actively stealth past mobs through multiple powers, even the pool power titled Stealth requires additional stealth to always get past average mobs.  This isn't part of the argument and doesn't matter though.  What you're talking about is essentially meaningless, because again it isn't a tanker-relevant conversation.  Nothing you are saying leads me to think there is any reason a tanker shouldn't have access to stealth related powers in their primaries. Whatever point you are making is not useful here.  Of course stealth requires an additional stealth IO or superspeed to achieve enough stealth to slide by enemies.  I never even argued that.  You're attacking me as if I did.  I didn't.

 

Find a new angle, you aren't getting anywhere.

Don't get angry at me cause your argument doesnt hold water.

[Dark Dove]

Just now, Infinitum said:

Don't get angry at me cause your argument doesnt hold water.

I'm not angry, you appear to be blustering on about some subject that isn't even a part of the conversation.

 

Grow up.

[Infinitum]

Just now, Dark Dove said:

I'm not angry, you appear to be blustering on about some subject that isn't even a part of the conversation.

 

Grow up.

lol its actual game mechanics based on stealth... Thats not even my opinion - its fact. Facts that support how hard and impractical it would be for a tanker to stealth maps - if you took a deep dive into the concealment pool thats fine but even that isn't bullet proof like stalker hide is.

 

Tankers just aren't built that way in a practical sense.  That's a fact backed up by those mechanics.  Like it or not its the truth.

 

Did I time warp past some fact here that doesnt involve stealth?

[Dark Dove]

Just now, Infinitum said:

lol its actual game mechanics based on stealth... Thats not even my opinion - its fact. Facts that support how hard and impractical it would be for a tanker to stealth maps - if you took a deep dive into the concealment pool thats fine but even that isn't bullet proof like stalker hide is.

 

Tankers just aren't built that way in a practical sense.  That's a fact backed up by those mechanics.  Like it or not its the truth.

 

Did I time warp past some fact here that doesnt involve stealth?

Have you ever played a tanker with Stealth and any other stealth boosting power?

 

All you need is superspeed or an IO and you're fine to stealth most content.

 

Again you're attacking this as if I disagree with you instead of addressing the conversation.

 

Nothing you are saying leads me to think there is any reason a tanker shouldn't have access to stealth related powers in their primaries.

 

What you are describing isn't specific to tankers.  It goes for any stealth power of a certain stealth radius.  You're arguing with the great nothing, I don't disagree.

 

What you are describing doesn't make the stealth powers in armor sets any less relevant to their respective sets.  They still give a defining incentive to those sets, no matter what AT they're on.  The only time these powers should be reconsidered is for balance purposes or for redundancy (stalkers being a part here, as they already have hide, these powers can be replaced).

[Infinitum]

Just now, Dark Dove said:

Have you ever played a tanker with Stealth and any other stealth boosting power?

 

All you need is superspeed or an IO and you're fine to stealth most content.

 

Again you're attacking this as if I disagree with you instead of addressing the conversation.

 

Nothing you are saying leads me to think there is any reason a tanker shouldn't have access to stealth related powers in their primaries.

 

What you are describing isn't specific to tankers.  It goes for any stealth power of a certain stealth radius.  You're arguing with the great nothing, I don't disagree.

 

What you are describing doesn't make the stealth powers in armor sets any less relevant to their respective sets.  They still give a defining incentive to those sets, no matter what AT they're on.  The only time these powers should be reconsidered is for balance purposes or for redundancy (stalkers being a part here, as they already have hide, these powers can be replaced).

Aside from the fact they don't work well anyway - EA on my brute - energy cloak is suppressed the first mob I run past - they cant stop me though either way so I keep going.

 

Thats all superspeed does for a tanker - moves them through really fast.

 

Either way.... You... Arent.... Sneaking... Around as a tanker.

 

That power is useless for a tanker.  I'm not opposed to it, but it wont work like you are thinking it will.

[Dark Dove]

4 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Aside from the fact they don't work well anyway - EA on my brute - energy cloak is suppressed the first mob I run past - they cant stop me though either way so I keep going.

 

Thats all superspeed does for a tanker - moves them through really fast.

 

Either way.... You... Arent.... Sneaking... Around as a tanker.

 

That power is useless for a tanker.  I'm not opposed to it, but it wont work like you are thinking it will.

I do it consistently on my main, which is a tanker, and it works perfectly.  I think you're playing a very different game, and I'm okay with that, and I have enough respect for other people and their playstyles to acknowledge that it's okay if you play differently than I do, and I am not asserting that the game or the AT should be changed because I think my way is the right way.

 

Also superspeed gives stealth.  Try it with a Cloak power.  Works perfectly good against all but perception-focused enemies.

 

And if this entire conversation is because you can't be bothered to turn off your AoE toggles when it's time to stealth a mission and then turn them back on after... and you just walk by stuff triggering them with your taunt auras... well that's funny.  I respect your right to play that way though.

[Infinitum]

1 minute ago, Dark Dove said:

I do it consistently on my main, which is a tanker, and it works perfectly.  I think you're playing a very different game, and I'm okay with that, and I have enough respect for other people and their playstyles to acknowledge that it's okay if you play differently than I do, and I am not asserting that the game or the AT should be changed because I think my way is the right way.

 

Also superspeed gives stealth.  Try it with a Cloak power.  Works perfectly good against all but perception-focused enemies.

 

And if this entire conversation is because you can't be bothered to turn off your AoE toggles when it's time to stealth a mission and then turn them back on after... and you just walk by stuff triggering them with your taunt auras... well that's funny.  I respect your right to play that way though.

The game mechanics works the same for you as it does me, my friend.  Its the same game.

 

And no I don't turn defensive toggles off even if they have an aura - because in most caves or office buildings any stealth you can muster as a tanker will fail unless you are playing no bosses - once they notice you, they attack, your stealth suppresses then the mob attacks - you want stuff that keeps you alive running at all times.

 

Superspeed - yeah i get that, but thats more due to moving so fast by the time they see you - you are already in the elevator. Cloak, stealth - whatever doesnt matter your speed is what accomplishes your goal here - not the mechanic stealth.

[Dark Dove]

1 minute ago, Infinitum said:

And no I don't turn defensive toggles off even if they have an aura

Case closed.  Thanks for the conversation.

[Infinitum]

2 minutes ago, Dark Dove said:

Case closed.  Thanks for the conversation.

Stalkers are that way in case you were wondering - I have a few excellent builds if you want.