Infinitum Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 2 minutes ago, Apparition said: Then they have no role as most teams have a Tanker and Scrappers do more damage. False - it's not that blatant. Near scrapper dmg - surpassingit occasionally - is still good - and it's basically putting out that dmg with tanker mitigation caps. It's role is to be that particular badass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StriderIV Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 2 minutes ago, Erratic1 said: Which mostly works for me. Just it seems that other ATs got role protection. Of course that might come down to defining the Brute role as, "2nd Best at Both" Does this mean Brutes win all the decathlons? 😂 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erratic1 Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 Just now, StriderIV said: Does this mean Brutes win all the decathlons? 😂 Damage and tanking would be biathalon, no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Infinitum Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 2 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said: This. Wanna know where being melee is most useful? When soloing. Teams don't need any melee AT. Snicker. This argument has been around since the dead Sea got sick - even live forums. In this game especially now teams don't need any one AT or combination of ATs. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Infinitum Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 2 minutes ago, StriderIV said: Does this mean Brutes win all the decathlons? 😂 Decapitations maybe. lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StriderIV Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 Just now, Erratic1 said: Damage and tanking would be biathalon, no? No, you're forgetting the other 8 categories: Chadness Sexiness Muskyness Stubborness Singing Dancing Olympic Lifting Freestyle rapping. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StriderIV Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 3 minutes ago, Infinitum said: Decapitations maybe. lol Dang, forgot that category. We'll substitute it in for one of the others. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Z Bubba Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 9 minutes ago, Infinitum said: Near scrapper dmg - surpassingit occasionally Again, false statement. No brute is going to surpass a scrapper's damage unless you're comparing a powerset like EM against Spines where you specifically stated we aren't allowed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Infinitum Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said: Again, false statement. No brute is going to surpass a scrapper's damage unless you're comparing a powerset like EM against Spines where you specifically stated we aren't allowed. It isnt False its dependent on chance and the scrapper regularly getting critical hits to surpass a brute. Before the tanker changes the brute was ahead of blasters and acrappers in terms of dmg potential - thats why its cap was lowered from 775? To 700 I think. Then the talk was with reliable criticals the scrapper is king of melee dmg. But it is still possible for a brute to occasionally surpass a scrapper if it doesnt reliably crit. I guess thats dependent on build and luck. Edited February 18, 2021 by Infinitum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Z Bubba Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 2 minutes ago, Infinitum said: It isnt False its dependent on chance and the scrapper regularly getting critical hits to surpass a brute. A chance that can be easily calculated over time. If you're stating that "a brute can exceed a scrapper's damage when the scrapper gets a slew of unlucky crit rolls" then you should have said so. If you were trying to state a single attack with a capped damage buff for a brute can exceed the same attack from a scrapper at the cap only IF the scrapper doesn't crit, then you should have said so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Infinitum Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 2 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said: A chance that can be easily calculated over time. If you're stating that "a brute can exceed a scrapper's damage when the scrapper gets a slew of unlucky crit rolls" then you should have said so. If you were trying to state a single attack with a capped damage buff for a brute can exceed the same attack from a scrapper at the cap only IF the scrapper doesn't crit, then you should have said so. All im saying is I remember much better number crunchers than me saying that back then. The possibility exists - but either way the brute gets close to the scrapper numbers situationally occasionally exceeding it, and isnt too far off the average either depending on which set you look at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Z Bubba Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 8 minutes ago, Infinitum said: All im saying is I remember much better number crunchers than me saying that back then. The possibility exists - but either way the brute gets close to the scrapper numbers situationally occasionally exceeding it, and isnt too far off the average either depending on which set you look at. I was one of those number crunchers. It wasn't true before AT IOs and it's certainly no longer true. Although, it was damn close before AT IOs. The reason BZB scrapper was turned into BZB brute back before the snap was, ironically, because the extra mitigation provided by being a brute exceeded the extra damage from being a scrapper. Funny, that, considering the current discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erratic1 Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 (edited) Right now on a team with 3 Brutes and a Stalker for melee. It is brutally fun. Edited February 18, 2021 by Erratic1 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScarySai Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 Seems like people just forgot how good corruptors and brutes are, lately. It's honestly entertaining, see people claim they are both bad. Let's me know who's opinion isn't worth humoring in the future. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Replacement Posted February 19, 2021 Share Posted February 19, 2021 4 hours ago, Erratic1 said: We're not talking about Pylon times, we're talking about the whole game. Yes, we were (I was) talking about pylons. When I entered this thread, the premise was [Anecdote of a specialized anti-pylon tanker doing as well as non-optimal scrapper for the task] therefore [Tanker OP]. This was specifically my issue; the use of a pylon test to make a sweeping AT balance declaration, without acknowledging the variables still on the table, both of which biased in the same direction. As for slotting, I believe I intentionally used the word "similar" slotting. No one is asking for perfect; but working to minimize the variables should be the goal of both sides of the argument. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erratic1 Posted February 19, 2021 Share Posted February 19, 2021 7 minutes ago, Replacement said: Yes, we were (I was) talking about pylons. You responded to me, so what you were talking about was not the topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Replacement Posted February 19, 2021 Share Posted February 19, 2021 32 minutes ago, Erratic1 said: You responded to me, so what you were talking about was not the topic. This quote chain literally starts with you taking some of my sentences out of context to argue something unrelated (me: if you want to argue one scenario, make that scenario rigorous. You: but what about the other scenarios!) If you want to continue this rally against "how the game is played in reality," please do so without my quotes at the top for you to strawman. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snarky Posted February 19, 2021 Share Posted February 19, 2021 Why? So funny. Just went into a Underground Incarnate Trial. Not my first rodeo. While everyone was standing in the lobby buffing up I took my 50+3 Dark Dark Brute around the corner and jumped into one of the giant groups awaiting us. I was in there for over a minute before the rest of the team finally showed up. As they were mopping that up I jumped to the middle group by the door. Followed immediately by the League. Then I saw that the team that went the other path were still working on their first group. So I jumped in there. In my mind I did enough damage to soften up that first group that I was able to personally get into the action on all three groups in the first area. Survived it nicely too. Try surviving that on a Scrapper or doing that much damage on a tank... 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Infinitum Posted February 19, 2021 Share Posted February 19, 2021 7 minutes ago, Snarky said: Why? So funny. Just went into a Underground Incarnate Trial. Not my first rodeo. While everyone was standing in the lobby buffing up I took my 50+3 Dark Dark Brute around the corner and jumped into one of the giant groups awaiting us. I was in there for over a minute before the rest of the team finally showed up. As they were mopping that up I jumped to the middle group by the door. Followed immediately by the League. Then I saw that the team that went the other path were still working on their first group. So I jumped in there. In my mind I did enough damage to soften up that first group that I was able to personally get into the action on all three groups in the first area. Survived it nicely too. Try surviving that on a Scrapper or doing that much damage on a tank... Good job! And I agree. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Replacement Posted February 19, 2021 Share Posted February 19, 2021 (edited) @Erratic1I may see a miscommunication. My first post in this thread, I replied to BZB's entire post, instead of just the first section. That section was him responding to Infinitum's offer for a more fair pylon comparison with a deflection. You may have thought you were quoting someone making a general statement on how to test and unrealistic expectations of build parity across all scenarios, when I was intending something far more specific (nailing down the criteria of a good pylon test). In a final attempt at good faith, I think this may be the misunderstanding, and why we both think the other is wildly off topic. Edited February 19, 2021 by Replacement Spelling, clarity 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erratic1 Posted February 19, 2021 Share Posted February 19, 2021 (edited) All clear here. Edited February 19, 2021 by Erratic1 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLVD Posted February 19, 2021 Author Share Posted February 19, 2021 Brutal mission simulator was a fun test. Ran it +4/x8 with my FA/DM tanker and got 6:46 on my first run. Full IO build, T3 Incarnates, no inspirations/temps. Goal now is to build a brute that can beat that time and I may change my mind about my OP. The wider AOE and higher aggro cap that my tanker had is giving me doubts though. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galaxy Brain Posted February 19, 2021 Share Posted February 19, 2021 18 minutes ago, tan702 said: Brutal mission simulator was a fun test. Ran it +4/x8 with my FA/DM tanker and got 6:46 on my first run. Full IO build, T3 Incarnates, no inspirations/temps. Goal now is to build a brute that can beat that time and I may change my mind about my OP. The wider AOE and higher aggro cap that my tanker had is giving me doubts though. Main thing folks see is on the bosses and elite boss the brute pulls far ahead. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galaxy Brain Posted February 19, 2021 Share Posted February 19, 2021 (edited) (Double post but w/e) If you'd all like, I have some BS custom mobs that can make it into the "no really, it's brutal" mission sim 😄 Edited February 19, 2021 by Galaxy Brain 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLVD Posted February 19, 2021 Author Share Posted February 19, 2021 1 hour ago, Galaxy Brain said: Main thing folks see is on the bosses and elite boss the brute pulls far ahead. So I built a FM/DA brute (a concept I've been wanting to run with for awhile) to hopefully see better numbers than my tanker. The results were... pretty bad. ST and AOE felt slower. It was a good build and attack chain, but the numbers just didn't match the tanker's. I was about halfway through the map when I decided the brute just wasn't cleaning mobs as fast, so I ran straight to the EB. Running in with an almost full bar of fury, it took 36 seconds to down the EB. Ran it again with my tanker and he took him down in 31 seconds. Maybe this is an unfair comparison since FA/DM is really strong on a tanker.. but this first test seemed pretty poor for the brute. Or maybe FM is just bad and only certain Brute primaries will perform better than a tanker. Gonna have to test more cases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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