"The Game is not Balanced around IO's"..... should it be?

[Snarky]

7 hours ago, Myrmidon said:

 

AE is completely wasted on being a farming hub when it could be used to make more of that challenging content balance that is being discussed here.

 

Get rid of rewards for AE aside from Dev’s Choice (which would make Infernal and Drek happy as they are likely so lonely after all of these years) and make it the “difficult content” hub.

You so had me with your first sentence.  What a hook.,  Agree completely.  All the people who care so much about this need to be encoraged and supported in creating content we can all share.

 

You so lost me with your last sentence.  What a cross!  Please do not nerf how other people enjoy the game just because its not how you see it.

[ForeverLaxx]

5 hours ago, arcaneholocaust said:

Nope it has definitely gotten way easier outside of IO’s and such too. 

Explain how the numbers of enemies, the numbers of player powers, and the numbers of SO/Generic IO slotting haven't changed, but somehow it's still easier.

 

The numbers in the system don't agree with your perception.

[Haijinx]

1 hour ago, ForeverLaxx said:

Explain how the numbers of enemies, the numbers of player powers, and the numbers of SO/Generic IO slotting haven't changed, but somehow it's still easier.

 

The numbers in the system don't agree with your perception.

Multiple possible explanations.

 

But I'll go with the easy one. 

 

Just because you might have only a SO build, that doesn't mean your teammates will.

[Myrmidon]

1 hour ago, Snarky said:

You so lost me with your last sentence.  What a cross!  Please do not nerf how other people enjoy the game just because its not how you see it.

AFK Farmer tears are one of the ingredients in the Immortality Elixir, so I have to find at least a few.

[Bill Z Bubba]

11 hours ago, Myrmidon said:

AFK Farmer tears are one of the ingredients in the Immortality Elixir, so I have to find at least a few.

 

Statement: I firefarm to get new alts to 50. I have never AFK farmed. I think I like my slaughterings to be hands on.

 

Question: Why would I run content without reward?

[ForeverLaxx]

13 hours ago, Haijinx said:

Multiple possible explanations.

 

But I'll go with the easy one. 

 

Just because you might have only a SO build, that doesn't mean your teammates will.

Which doesn't change the actual balancing factor of the numbers themselves, what they're balanced against, and what the game expects of you as a player. You are aware that "those people" existed on Live before it was shut down, yeah?

 

The game's balance is the same now as it was on Live. The game systems haven't changed to make anything easier under the hood. Potential player access to better, optional, slotting has improved but that isn't the same thing as the game being easier on a design level as was indicated.

[Haijinx]

45 minutes ago, ForeverLaxx said:

Which doesn't change the actual balancing factor of the numbers themselves, what they're balanced against, and what the game expects of you as a player. You are aware that "those people" existed on Live before it was shut down, yeah?

 

The game's balance is the same now as it was on Live. The game systems haven't changed to make anything easier under the hood. Potential player access to better, optional, slotting has improved but that isn't the same thing as the game being easier on a design level as was indicated.

Before the shutdown IOs were much more expensive.  Your teammates in this scenario were not demigawds stomping elite bosses underfoot.

 

They were merely much better than your SO only ostriches.  

[Galaxy Brain]

58 minutes ago, ForeverLaxx said:

Which doesn't change the actual balancing factor of the numbers themselves, what they're balanced against, and what the game expects of you as a player. You are aware that "those people" existed on Live before it was shut down, yeah?

 

The game's balance is the same now as it was on Live. The game systems haven't changed to make anything easier under the hood. Potential player access to better, optional, slotting has improved but that isn't the same thing as the game being easier on a design level as was indicated.

On an entirely objective, strict sense: various buffs to underperformers have made the game easier. This is warranted, but in the strictest of definitions this has made the game easier.

 

Access to Incarnates has also been made easier, making them more common than before.

 

Travel options have also made things easier in terms of what content to tackle and where.

 

Edited February 23, 2021 by Galaxy Brain

[Bill Z Bubba]

I'm pretty sure (maybe, kinda, I'm old, memory sucks) that only BZB Scrap, BZB Brute and Louis Cypher were fully T4ed back before the snap. It wasn't even remotely worth it to bother doing so with any other character. Now? It takes MAYBE two weeks for me to get a character to 50, fully PvPed/Purpled/IOed, T4ed AND have all 4 passive accolades.

This is why I find it so difficult to accept that majority of players are still running around with SO only builds. Sure... maybe on the way to 50, but after that? Nah, citation seriously needed.

[tidge]

32 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

I'm pretty sure (maybe, kinda, I'm old, memory sucks) that only BZB Scrap, BZB Brute and Louis Cypher were fully T4ed back before the snap. It wasn't even remotely worth it to bother doing so with any other character. Now? It takes MAYBE two weeks for me to get a character to 50, fully PvPed/Purpled/IOed, T4ed AND have all 4 passive accolades.

This is why I find it so difficult to accept that majority of players are still running around with SO only builds. Sure... maybe on the way to 50, but after that? Nah, citation seriously needed.

Please try to keep the Incarnate discussion out of this threads "balance" discussions, because there is no reason to seriously consider changing Homegame balance as long as Incarnates are part of the discussion. I may be on a different side of this particular discussion, but I want to point out that you are arguing into a dead end when discussing level 50(+) builds and game (im)balance.

[ForeverLaxx]

1 hour ago, Galaxy Brain said:

buffs to underperformers have made the game easier

And nerfs, by the same token, make things harder. I'll give you the changes to Travel, though.

 

1 hour ago, Haijinx said:

Your teammates in this scenario were not demigawds stomping elite bosses underfoot

So? Even a team of only SO people made the game "easier" because that's the nature of teaming with people who can click buttons every so often. The values that powersets are created under haven't changed. The values of SOs haven't changed. The base difficulty of the game hasn't changed.

 

1 hour ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

This is why I find it so difficult to accept that majority of players are still running around with SO only builds. Sure... maybe on the way to 50, but after that? Nah, citation seriously needed

It doesn't really matter if you accept or believe it when we're not given any data to know one way or the other. What I do know, though, is that I don't want pre-50 content to be adjusted to account for this "obvious majority" of people covered in set bonuses. As soon as I'm forced to utilize the IO system in a manner that dictates every choice for me, I'll be quitting.

[arcane]

2 hours ago, ForeverLaxx said:

Which doesn't change the actual balancing factor of the numbers themselves, what they're balanced against, and what the game expects of you as a player. You are aware that "those people" existed on Live before it was shut down, yeah?

 

The game's balance is the same now as it was on Live. The game systems haven't changed to make anything easier under the hood. Potential player access to better, optional, slotting has improved but that isn't the same thing as the game being easier on a design level as was indicated.

If you think IO’s and incarnates are the only thing that has made this game easier, you haven’t played very long at all. There have been countless changes that have dumbed down the game. Blanket power buffs to bring older things in line as a result of power creep, ability to disable bosses entirely in solo play, absolute erasure of formerly significant travel times, etc. are a few examples that come to mind immediately.

[Bill Z Bubba]

24 minutes ago, tidge said:

Please try to keep the Incarnate discussion out of this threads "balance" discussions, because there is no reason to seriously consider changing Homegame balance as long as Incarnates are part of the discussion. I may be on a different side of this particular discussion, but I want to point out that you are arguing into a dead end when discussing level 50(+) builds and game (im)balance.

It's not a dead end at all unless you want to pretend that there aren't a ton of 50+ builds running around playing the same content as everyone else.

 

There's no point in ONLY considering IOs in a discussion about game balance. They are part of the game balance woes included with IOs and their set bonuses, intra-AT balance and extra-AT balance. But yes please, let's see the data mining on just how many characters are out there that are running SO only builds and fully T4ed. I suspect the answer is 0 at this particular moment, knowing fully well someone will do it just for the hell of it.

[ForeverLaxx]

1 minute ago, arcaneholocaust said:

If you think IO’s and incarnates are the only thing that has made this game easier, you haven’t played very long at all. There have been countless changes that have dumbed down the game. Blanket power buffs to bring older things in line as a result of power creep, ability to disable bosses entirely in solo play, absolute erasure of formerly significant travel times, etc. are a few examples that come to mind immediately.

Which has already been addressed previously. Barring the travel changes, everything else is standard fair for underperforming sets. Some sets even got weaker overall, like Titan Weapons. Disabling bosses in solo play was always possible if you had enough control powers to stack. If you're talking optional build avenues that aren't required to progress and aren't taken into account when designing content, powersets, or power numbers, you don't really have a case or a point.

[Bill Z Bubba]

3 minutes ago, ForeverLaxx said:

It doesn't really matter if you accept or believe it when we're not given any data to know one way or the other. What I do know, though, is that I don't want pre-50 content to be adjusted to account for this "obvious majority" of people covered in set bonuses. As soon as I'm forced to utilize the IO system in a manner that dictates every choice for me, I'll be quitting.

Fair enough. Lots of people quit for lots of reasons. Always have, always will. I certainly don't want to see a time where soloing with SOs at +0/x1 becomes impossible any more than I enjoy seeing some builds waltz through the toughest of the tough content without even having to pop an inspiration.

[arcane]

2 minutes ago, ForeverLaxx said:

Which has already been addressed previously. Barring the travel changes, everything else is standard fair for underperforming sets. Some sets even got weaker overall, like Titan Weapons. Disabling bosses in solo play was always possible if you had enough control powers to stack. If you're talking optional build avenues that aren't required to progress and aren't taken into account when designing content, powersets, or power numbers, you don't really have a case or a point.

Lol. You’re just massaging your confirmation bias at this point buddy.

[ForeverLaxx]

5 minutes ago, arcaneholocaust said:

Lol. You’re just massaging your confirmation bias at this point buddy.

Declarations of fact that suit my argument but not yours are not "confirmation bias". Confirmation Bias is taking the natural progression of buffs/nerfs and the utilization of an entirely optional system to argue that the game is now easier by default and design. Which is what you're doing.

 

But please, continue to project. I won't entertain you further anyhow. Shout into that void.

[Galaxy Brain]

16 minutes ago, ForeverLaxx said:

And nerfs, by the same token, make things harder. I'll give you the changes to Travel, though.

 

While true, HC has buffed far, far more broadly than nerfed.

[ForeverLaxx]

Just now, Galaxy Brain said:

While true, HC has buffed far, far more broadly than nerfed.

Some buffs are less buffs and more sidegrades. Reductions in single-target power in exchange for AoE power, making AoE more spammable (but less impactful per use) so you have something to do in this fast-paced "AoE all the things" meta so you don't feel like dead weight, etc.

 

It's not really a direction I like, but one I'm living with.

[arcane]

4 minutes ago, ForeverLaxx said:

Declarations of fact that suit my argument but not yours are not "confirmation bias". Confirmation Bias is taking the natural progression of buffs/nerfs and the utilization of an entirely optional system to argue that the game is now easier by default and design. Which is what you're doing.

 

But please, continue to project. I won't entertain you further anyhow. Shout into that void.

You haven't written a single sentence without blatant logical errors. Please present a coherent argument and circle back with me then, thanks.

[Haijinx]

48 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

While true, HC has buffed far, far more broadly than nerfed.

There are so few actual nerfs in the history of COX the ones that do exist become memes

[Galaxy Brain]

1 minute ago, Haijinx said:

There are so few actual nerfs in the history of COX the ones that do exist become memes

Clearly, we must nerf regen in order to fix IO's

[Haijinx]

59 minutes ago, arcaneholocaust said:

Lol. You’re just massaging your confirmation bias at this point buddy.

To be fair, although I think arcane is being confrontational here.

 

It feels a lot like confirmation bias when I read those posts also.  

 

Frankly a lot of the keep things moar easy arguements seem very closed minded.

[ForeverLaxx]

1 hour ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

I certainly don't want to see a time where soloing with SOs at +0/x1 becomes impossible any more than I enjoy seeing some builds waltz through the toughest of the tough content without even having to pop an inspiration

For what it's worth, I'm not against avenues of optional increased difficulty in order to let people really challenge their expensive "+4/x8 is now babymode" builds. But what people advocate for is rarely this, and it rarely shows itself in that manner down the line. What many people fight for, and what usually ends up happening, is that the entire game gets pushed into the "we need to challenge min/maxers" direction, leaving players who don't want to, or don't care to, indulge in reaching defensive and offensive softcaps in the dust. It's the classic case of balancing for the hardcore at the expense of the casual, and CoH at its core is a casual game. I say all this, again, as a min/max player in nearly every other game I can do it in (and when I eventually get to 50, I'll do that on my characters too, to whatever their concept dictates). My primary character in Dark Souls 3 uses a whip and "crappy" Pyromancies and I beat the hardest optional boss in the game (Midir) with just those tools. I'm not against challenge -- I'm against enforced build dictations by developers.

 

CoH was billed as the "build your way" MMO and it set itself apart by being a mostly casual, jump in for an hour and feel like you accomplished something experience with characters you designed yourself. For the most part, it succeeded in that vision and many people, including myself, play it simply for that reason alone. Many tentative changes never happened because they would run counter to that initial draw, or in another way, would have turned CoH into every other generic fantasy MMO on the market at the time. I'm still here now, today, because the game is still very much a "jump in and have fun" casual beatdown with cool powers. It's not a numbers game unless you want it to be, and I love it for that.

 

Comments like these:

27 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Frankly a lot of the keep things moar easy arguements seem very closed minded

completely miss the point and seek to paint those who like the game the way it is as some kind of regressive, anti-challenge crowd and do nothing but perpetuate the overall impression that people wanting "moar challenge" are seeking to make the way I and others play no longer possible. I'm no longer engaging with these people because it's clear to me that the health of the game and its playerbase aren't their concern; they just want to have a captive audience to flex on.

[Bill Z Bubba]

13 minutes ago, ForeverLaxx said:

What many people fight for, and what usually ends up happening, is that the entire game gets pushed into the "we need to challenge min/maxers" direction, leaving players who don't want to, or don't care to, indulge in reaching defensive and offensive softcaps in the dust.

You're not wrong. Just know that some of us are NOT in that camp.

 

Edit: Smart people are around here. There should be a way for us to both leave the lowbie game alone AND increase diff/rewards for those that can/do push it.

Edited February 23, 2021 by Bill Z Bubba