"The Game is not Balanced around IO's"..... should it be?

[Bill Z Bubba]

5 minutes ago, Arbegla said:

Point 1: They actually didn't raise the effectual softcap

Technically, they did by granting all incarnate flagged critters a 13% tohitbuff. You can see it if you use the power analyzer on them. But they also hit harder, throw down more debuffs in general and I'd bet have more damres but I'm not in game to verify that. The problem is level shifts. I can clear out +4 incarnate baddies far faster than I can +4 regular baddies because I've got 3 incarnate shifts in DA vs only 1 in regular content. THIS was the stupidest decision by the former devs in regards to the incarnate system.

[Bill Z Bubba]

9 minutes ago, Neiska said:

3a. Tankers/Brutes - You hold threat. Your job isn't to do damage, but you can kill things yourself, if given time.

 

9 minutes ago, Neiska said:

4a. Tankers/Brutes - Bummed you arent doing damage? Well, thats not your role or function.

Couple thoughts on these two points. Tanks recently received a MASSIVE uptick to their AoE damage output and a minor uptick to their ST damage. And unfortunately for game balance, both are tough enough and do enough damage that when built correctly they have no need of a team to steamroll through content at max diff.

 

Holding threat is a benefit when teamed but just isn't their primary role anymore and in the brute's case, never was. You don't run around with a 200% damage buff just from punching and being punched and not be a damage dealer. Remember, the faceplanted blaster is dishing out zero DPS.

 

Random anecdotal point, my SG ran an all shield ITF that finished faster than the all corruptor ITF. That should NOT be but it was.

Edited January 27, 2021 by Bill Z Bubba

[Neiska]

@Bill Z Bubba - Mhm, I am aware of the tank buffs. I have a EM/Bio and a Rad/Bio tanker myself.

 

Tanker damage isnt as bad as it used to be, which i say is a great thing. But they still arent a scrapper/stalker/blaster level of damage. And yes, they can steamroll content. But I wouldn't say thats a bad thing. I can steamroll content on my MM too. The only differences is time and attention required really. 

 

But I mean, what is the alternative? We could go back to the time when people were screaming for tanks and no one played them. Or when not many played them and most just played brutes instead. I would say what we have now is the better option. And yes, Brutes and Tanks can both do damage now. But I still think where they shine is they have taunt auras. They don't even have to really focus in order to keep things off of others, like the healers, the CC, the support. 

 

I mean, we could take a look at Wow where they have 2 hour wait times for a tank to be willing to cue. I wouldn't consider that the superior choice.

[Brutal Justice]

26 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Let's start here. Are you actually requesting a soft cap of 40% rather than 45% or are you asking for a hard cap of 40%? Lowering the soft cap would actually mean altering the tohit/defense equation. Making it a hard cap would grossly nerf defense based sets while barely touching sets based on healing or resistance. This is a ridiculous and unbalanced change with regards to the game's overall power creep, which, by the by, I absolutely agree has occurred over the years.

I don’t know how to enter more than one quote at a time with my phone so bear?bare? (you get it) with me.  

 

I am proposing a hard cap.  Not an adjustment to the soft cap. A disproportionate nerf to defense is a nerf to the king.  Resists don’t perform at the same level and healing is laughable in comparison.  I know that you are partial to defense but I think you can acknowledge that defensive sets could lose some power without becoming overly gimped.  

 

I concede your point about soloists but the spirit of the statement had to do largely in a team setting.  Example.  A masterminds teaming experience is greatly affected by a murderous sr/claws tank laying waste to everything, while solo, the mastermind is unconcerned with that murderous madman.  

 

Speed is overly determined by dps but only when safety isn’t a concern.  If safety becomes a concern, then dps isn’t the only determining factor.  @Galaxy Brain has shown this with many of his tests and even accounts for safety in his final determination of his power rankings.  Advocating for mobs damage mitigation makes it more of a slog than challenge.  If they can’t defeat you it’s not a challenge.  It’s a slog of dps.  In my eyes that slows it down in a negative way.  Not in a risk vs reward way.  More a reward vs slower reward.  

 

Also, let’s be fair.  Forcefielders are a godsend at low levels but once you hit 45% defense they are already pointless.  This has been a cry of bubblers for quite some time.  Their powers are great and they are powerful, and then they are not.  People hit 45 now.  They would still hit 40 if it was the cap.  Really No change for those poor bubblers.  Raising the ToHit would adversely affect those who do not hit the soft cap now, making the game more difficult for the most vulnerable players.  

 

Resists and defense “always” function but they do not function at the same level as defense.  Regen could use a nerf though!  In the same way you could pop a respite earlier, you could pop a purple to combat -def.  Also there is no purely defensive based set left.  My reflexes tank can stand afk on the Roman wall with his toggles off and not die.  Defensive sets have room in their power level to lose a little.  It would not turning the king into the pauper. 

[Arbegla]

26 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Technically, they did by granting all incarnate flagged critters a 13% tohitbuff. You can see it if you use the power analyzer on them. But they also hit harder, throw down more debuffs in general and I'd bet have more damres but I'm not in game to verify that. The problem is level shifts. I can clear out +4 incarnate baddies far faster than I can +4 regular baddies because I've got 3 incarnate shifts in DA vs only 1 in regular content. THIS was the stupidest decision by the former devs in regards to the incarnate system.

Is the +13% tohitbuff equal to the different between fighting +3 vs fighting +1s?

 

If so, they didn't really 'raise the defense cap' so much as hardcoded the purple patch level difference. I know mobs have a ACC bonus based on rank and level, and that could roughly translate to the +13% tohit bonus?

[Apparition]

7 minutes ago, Brutal Justice said:

Also, let’s be fair.  Forcefielders are a godsend at low levels but once you hit 45% defense they are already pointless.  This has been a cry of bubblers for quite some time.  Their powers are great and they are powerful, and then they are not.  People hit 45 now.  They would still hit 40 if it was the cap.  Really No change for those poor bubblers.  Raising the ToHit would adversely affect those who do not hit the soft cap now, making the game more difficult for the most vulnerable players.  

 

Resists and defense “always” function but they do not function at the same level as defense.  Regen could use a nerf though!  In the same way you could pop a respite earlier, you could pop a purple to combat -def.  Also there is no purely defensive based set left.  My reflexes tank can stand afk on the Roman wall with his toggles off and not die.  Defensive sets have room in their power level to lose a little.  It would not turning the king into the pauper. 

 

Nerfing defense isn't the solution to Force Field's woes.  Changing the +defense in Force Field to +absorb is.  As someone who played five Force Field characters on live (all from level 1 to 50 solo), and plays a Force Field Corruptor on Homecoming, that's a change that I've been strongly advocating for for a while now.  Absorption is a much better fit for Force Field than defense, and if absorption was a mechanic at Issue 0, I'm 110% confident that is what Force Field would have been.

[Arbegla]

9 minutes ago, Brutal Justice said:

Resists and defense “always” function but they do not function at the same level as defense.  Regen could use a nerf though!  In the same way you could pop a respite earlier, you could pop a purple to combat -def.  Also there is no purely defensive based set left.  My reflexes tank can stand afk on the Roman wall with his toggles off and not die.  Defensive sets have room in their power level to lose a little.  It would not turning the king into the pauper. 

Actually Resistance functions significantly better then defense, when you factor in debuffs, and debuffs resistances.

Resistance Resists Resistances Debuffs, but only so you don't experience cascading failure. a 10% resistance debuffs results in a 10% DPS increase. Its simple math.

 

Defense, especially without Defense Debuff Resistance, is basically all or nothing. If you have 45% defense, you get hit 5% of the time for 100% of the damage. But if you add a -def debuff to that hit, (which is the most common form of debuff honestly, I'm pretty sure every single NPC group has -def in it) you can experience cascading failure, where that 45% defense gets reduced to 40%, doubling the number of attacks that come in. And that is with only a -5% defense power. If you get hit with a -10% defense power, your defense drops to 35%, and you're hit 300% more then you were when you had 45% defense. (5% to 15%) Cascading defense failure happens all the time, and its why your reflexes tank can stand AFK on the roman wall, because even your passives have DDR. A softcapped blaster? Wouldn't last much past the first hit.

 

And not all Defensive sets have DDR, also there are no IOs that grant DDR. So the inherent debuffs already balance it.

[Arbegla]

9 minutes ago, Apparition said:

 

Nerfing defense isn't the solution to Force Field's woes.  Changing the +defense in Force Field to +absorb is.  As someone who played five Force Field characters on live (all from level 1 to 50 solo), and plays a Force Field Corruptor on Homecoming, that's a change that I've been strongly advocating for for a while now.  Absorption is a much better fit for Force Field than defense, and if absorption was a mechanic at Issue 0, I'm 110% confident that is what Force Field would have been.

I would argue for both actually, cutting the defense boost in half, and having the shields provide +absorb. Force Field doesn't provide any DDR, so cascading failure still happens. But, that's a discussion for a different thread.

[Brutal Justice]

@Neiska  honestly I mostly scanned your last response.  It WAS very long in my defense 😋.  Mostly it was about me or a generic player and what they can and should do in regards to teaming situations.  Also a breakdown of archetypes roles and experiences.  

 

I am not new to the game.  

 

This is not about me.  I don’t want it to be about me.  I simply gave some personal information to set the stage for my proposal.  A proposal to achieve balance.  Not a proposal to instruct people on how to play the way I like.  

 

I don’t think you’re trying to be rude and I’m not offended.  I am also not trying to be rude and hope you are not offended.  

[Brutal Justice]

17 minutes ago, Apparition said:

 

Nerfing defense isn't the solution to Force Field's woes.  Changing the +defense in Force Field to +absorb is.  As someone who played five Force Field characters on live (all from level 1 to 50 solo), and plays a Force Field Corruptor on Homecoming, that's a change that I've been strongly advocating for for a while now.  Absorption is a much better fit for Force Field than defense, and if absorption was a mechanic at Issue 0, I'm 110% confident that is what Force Field would have been.

I agree.  I was just pointing out that the woes of a bubbler exist today and would not be a sudden result of a defense hardcap.  

[Bill Z Bubba]

38 minutes ago, Neiska said:

@Bill Z Bubba - Mhm, I am aware of the tank buffs. I have a EM/Bio and a Rad/Bio tanker myself.

 

Tanker damage isnt as bad as it used to be, which i say is a great thing. But they still arent a scrapper/stalker/blaster level of damage. And yes, they can steamroll content. But I wouldn't say thats a bad thing. I can steamroll content on my MM too. The only differences is time and attention required really. 

 

But I mean, what is the alternative? We could go back to the time when people were screaming for tanks and no one played them. Or when not many played them and most just played brutes instead. I would say what we have now is the better option. And yes, Brutes and Tanks can both do damage now. But I still think where they shine is they have taunt auras. They don't even have to really focus in order to keep things off of others, like the healers, the CC, the support. 

 

I mean, we could take a look at Wow where they have 2 hour wait times for a tank to be willing to cue. I wouldn't consider that the superior choice.

Oh no, hell no on the WoW comparison. That's just awful and those of us that play CoH, if anyone wants that level of the divine triumvirate of healer/tank/damage can just go EABOD.

 

My point was more that as it stands, while no AT is needed anytime for a team of 8 to get through anything this game can offer, it's been made even less so by the extra powercreep introduced by the Homecoming devs. I play my shield/em tank now and am left with the sensation that it's far too overpowered even for me. Course I still play it because it grants me vast rewards for a meditative experience.

 

There's an alternative available but it takes shitload of work to make happen and that would be to rebalance the powersets AND archetypes so that a defender can still benefit a team while the scrapper can still do its job of being a boss killer rather than the current situation of X powersets in X archetypes don't need the benefit of anyone else to steamroll everything at max diff.

[chi1701]

4 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Oh no, hell no on the WoW comparison. That's just awful and those of us that play CoH, if anyone wants that level of the divine triumvirate of healer/tank/damage can just go EABOD.

 

My point was more that as it stands, while no AT is needed anytime for a team of 8 to get through anything this game can offer, it's been made even less so by the extra powercreep introduced by the Homecoming devs. I play my shield/em tank now and am left with the sensation that it's far too overpowered even for me. Course I still play it because it grants me vast rewards for a meditative experience.

 

There's an alternative available but it takes shitload of work to make happen and that would be to rebalance the powersets AND archetypes so that a defender can still benefit a team while the scrapper can still do its job of being a boss killer rather than the current situation of X powersets in X archetypes don't need the benefit of anyone else to steamroll everything at max diff.

Going with what they say about wow, il throw this in, when a tank in wow is at max level, maximum gear for the expansion, the game also becomes as tedious as it is in cox. The only way for wow to make the game more difficult is the introduction of new expansion, more levels so you can again, go for the best loot and then rince and repeat. Cox hasnt had a increase in level cap, and incarnates and sets are end game.

[Bill Z Bubba]

49 minutes ago, Brutal Justice said:

I am proposing a hard cap.  Not an adjustment to the soft cap. A disproportionate nerf to defense is a nerf to the king.  Resists don’t perform at the same level and healing is laughable in comparison.  I know that you are partial to defense but I think you can acknowledge that defensive sets could lose some power without becoming overly gimped.  

So why is my shield tank superior to my sr tank? I'll tell ya: it has more HP and more resists and when double stacking active defense it has nearly as much DDR. Shield > SR. Full stop.

 

And no, I'm not happy at all with that. Same goes for invul at the high end. Massive resists AND HP AND defense AND good DDR makes it numerically superior.

 

There *should* be balance amongst the powersets within a given AT and there *should* be balance between the ATs. There isn't. THAT'S what should be fixed and nerfing defense won't do that.

49 minutes ago, Brutal Justice said:

A masterminds teaming experience is greatly affected by a murderous sr/claws tank laying waste to everything, while solo, the mastermind is unconcerned with that murderous madman.

A mastermind's teaming experience is vastly more affected by the fact that his pets are -1, 2 and 3 to the enemies and teams tend to run at higher difficulties than a mastermind would on their own. I don't have any masterminds. I find them a horrifically broken AT incapable of being remotely fun solo or on teams. I know that this opinion is not shared across the board. I also know that they have awesome pylon times because pylons are equal level to anything attacking them and thus are not an accurate test for masterminds in every other area of gameplay.

 

49 minutes ago, Brutal Justice said:

Speed is overly determined by dps but only when safety isn’t a concern.  If safety becomes a concern, then dps isn’t the only determining factor.  @Galaxy Brain has shown this with many of his tests and even accounts for safety in his final determination of his power rankings.  Advocating for mobs damage mitigation makes it more of a slog than challenge.  If they can’t defeat you it’s not a challenge.  It’s a slog of dps.  In my eyes that slows it down in a negative way.  Not in a risk vs reward way.  More a reward vs slower reward.

Kill speed reduces the need for mitigation. That which is dead can't hurt you. I accept that heightened mitigation is a good counter that allows you to keep killing, thus my dead blasters have zero DPS statements, but a 5% nerf to defense, or a +5% tohit buff for critters, is not going to change how quickly BZB scrap can tear through DA repeatable missions getting 3 vet lvls per hour.

 

49 minutes ago, Brutal Justice said:

Also, let’s be fair.  Forcefielders are a godsend at low levels but once you hit 45% defense they are already pointless.  This has been a cry of bubblers for quite some time.  Their powers are great and they are powerful, and then they are not.  People hit 45 now.  They would still hit 40 if it was the cap.  Really No change for those poor bubblers.  Raising the ToHit would adversely affect those who do not hit the soft cap now, making the game more difficult for the most vulnerable players.

More reason NOT to support your requested change. Bubblers should be changed. Sue Storms force fields provide damres. Why don't CoH bubblers? But if your change doesn't help the +defense support staff, inordinately screw over the defense based mitigation staff, then why ask for it when it doesn't solve the problem of power creep?

 

49 minutes ago, Brutal Justice said:

Resists and defense “always” function but they do not function at the same level as defense.  Regen could use a nerf though!  In the same way you could pop a respite earlier, you could pop a purple to combat -def.  Also there is no purely defensive based set left.  My reflexes tank can stand afk on the Roman wall with his toggles off and not die.  Defensive sets have room in their power level to lose a little.  It would not turning the king into the pauper. 

If you change the HARD cap, popping a purple does precisely nothing, as you yourself stated in the post about bubblers. I'm unsure why you think the defense based sets are king. They aren't as I stated earlier with shield and invul. Mutli-layered protection is king. SR is freakishly awesome in the ITF because Cimerorans lean on defense debuffs and SR sits at 95% DDR. But stick that same SR user in a full spawn of lobsters and squids and it folds like anyone else while the shield user with its increased nrg/neg damres, defense AND ddr sits happy and safe.

Edited January 27, 2021 by Bill Z Bubba

[Brutal Justice]

18 minutes ago, Arbegla said:

Actually Resistance functions significantly better then defense, when you factor in debuffs, and debuffs resistances.

Resistance Resists Resistances Debuffs, but only so you don't experience cascading failure. a 10% resistance debuffs results in a 10% DPS increase. Its simple math.

 

Defense, especially without Defense Debuff Resistance, is basically all or nothing. If you have 45% defense, you get hit 5% of the time for 100% of the damage. But if you add a -def debuff to that hit, (which is the most common form of debuff honestly, I'm pretty sure every single NPC group has -def in it) you can experience cascading failure, where that 45% defense gets reduced to 40%, doubling the number of attacks that come in. And that is with only a -5% defense power. If you get hit with a -10% defense power, your defense drops to 35%, and you're hit 300% more then you were when you had 45% defense. (5% to 15%) Cascading defense failure happens all the time, and its why your reflexes tank can stand AFK on the roman wall, because even your passives have DDR. A softcapped blaster? Wouldn't last much past the first hit.

 

And not all Defensive sets have DDR, also there are no IOs that grant DDR. So the inherent debuffs already balance it.

I understand the mechanics are different.  The point wasn’t the mechanics, it was that defense is superior to resists.  Resistance may resist resistance debuffs but defense has the ability to completely avoid -def.   0 is greater than 1 in this case.  This applies to all debuffs not just -def.  Defense avoids them all, resistance face tanks them all.  

 

Also, since it is a soft cap and not a hard cap.  People build in extra defense to counteract and negate the -def that does manage to get through.  So you are correct that there is no IO for DDR, but it’s not even needed since 45 is a soft cap not a hard cap.  If I have zero DDR and 55 defense I can take -10 defense and not even notice.  More often than not the mob that delivered the debuff is either dead before he can land another one or the initial debuff has worn off before another lands.  

 

300% does sound like a lot but when you’re talking about 1 hit vs 3 hits it’s really not.  You will probably survive, just maybe not afk like you would have with 1.  

 

The tank can can stand there not because of DDR.  With just the passives and their level of DDR the romans strip that level of defense rather quickly.  It’s the 99% that keeps a sr from cascading.  You don’t get that from the passives.  He stands there because of the scaling +res and regen.  He looks like he’s going to die, but he’s not.

[Bill Z Bubba]

11 minutes ago, Brutal Justice said:

I understand the mechanics are different.  The point wasn’t the mechanics, it was that defense is superior to resists.  Resistance may resist resistance debuffs but defense has the ability to completely avoid -def.   0 is greater than 1 in this case.  This applies to all debuffs not just -def.  Defense avoids them all, resistance face tanks them all.

Defense CAN indeed ignore defense debuffs if the defense debuff misses. That is true. But there's ALWAYS at least a 5% chance that it will land. Want to see how weak defense is without DDR? It's simple to test. Take a shield using character into the ITF with the defense amp that grants mez protection and never click active defense. That shield user will get their ass beat into the ground in very short order.

 

11 minutes ago, Brutal Justice said:

Also, since it is a soft cap and not a hard cap.  People build in extra defense to counteract and negate the -def that does manage to get through.  So you are correct that there is no IO for DDR, but it’s not even needed since 45 is a soft cap not a hard cap.  If I have zero DDR and 55 defense I can take -10 defense and not even notice.  More often than not the mob that delivered the debuff is either dead before he can land another one or the initial debuff has worn off before another lands.

Not when you're running at x8 against enemies that lean on defense debuffs. Cascading defense failure is easily watched amongst several enemy factions. All you have to do is monitor your defense while fighting them. Ain't got DDR to protect you? You're goin down.

 

11 minutes ago, Brutal Justice said:

The tank can can stand there not because of DDR.  With just the passives and their level of DDR the romans strip that level of defense rather quickly.  It’s the 99% that keeps a sr from cascading.  You don’t get that from the passives.  He stands there because of the scaling +res and regen.  He looks like he’s going to die, but he’s not.

No. Again, an easy test. My claws/sr brute with everything on is immortal against an aggro cap's worth of Cimerorans at max diff. If I turn off his 3 toggles, he's gonna faceplant in seconds. It's softcap AND DDR that grants him immortality. (Edit: AND his scaling resists AND his +regen AND his +HP from accolades and IO set bonuses.) A tank at 45% defense with No DDR is going to do the same if he's relying on the defense for his survival. Drop and die.

Edited January 27, 2021 by Bill Z Bubba

[Arbegla]

7 minutes ago, Brutal Justice said:

I understand the mechanics are different.  The point wasn’t the mechanics, it was that defense is superior to resists.  Resistance may resist resistance debuffs but defense has the ability to completely avoid -def.   0 is greater than 1 in this case.  This applies to all debuffs not just -def.  Defense avoids them all, resistance face tanks them all.  

 

Also, since it is a soft cap and not a hard cap.  People build in extra defense to counteract and negate the -def that does manage to get through.  So you are correct that there is no IO for DDR, but it’s not even needed since 45 is a soft cap not a hard cap.  If I have zero DDR and 55 defense I can take -10 defense and not even notice.  More often than not the mob that delivered the debuff is either dead before he can land another one or the initial debuff has worn off before another lands.  

 

300% does sound like a lot but when you’re talking about 1 hit vs 3 hits it’s really not.  You will probably survive, just maybe not afk like you would have with 1. 

I mean, in a vacuum, with each attack coming at you at the same time, and the next attack not hitting until the first was completely recovered from, I would agree with you. 0 is greater then 1.

 

Except that is not how City of Heroes works. Building for softcap on a blaster is already tough enough, as they have 0 defense to start with. Building to 55%? Or 58% (the incarnate 'softcap')? Good Luck. You're going to sacrifice so much else in that build that you might as well reroll as a different character entirely. Is it possible? Yes. Is it probable? Not really.

 

You're still really undervaluing the affect that -defense has. You're not facing 1 attack with -defense, you're facing tens of attacks, each with -defense. If a single one of those hits, your defense falls, and then the next volley knocks it down even more. Most NPC attacks cycle pretty quickly, and like I mentioned, -defense is the most common form.

 

-Resistance on the other hand, is fairly rare, even in Incarnate content, and doesn't cascade. You might be taking the debuff regardless, but its not going to completely remove your protections like -defense would on a softcapped blaster.

 

Quote

The tank can can stand there not because of DDR.  With just the passives and their level of DDR the romans strip that level of defense rather quickly.  It’s the 99% that keeps a sr from cascading.  You don’t get that from the passives.  He stands there because of the scaling +res and regen.  He looks like he’s going to die, but he’s not.

This proved more Bill Z Bubba's point than yours. Layers protections (Defense, Resistance, Regen, etc) is more powerful then just relying on 1 aspect completely.

[Bill Z Bubba]

16 minutes ago, chi1701 said:

Going with what they say about wow, il throw this in, when a tank in wow is at max level, maximum gear for the expansion, the game also becomes as tedious as it is in cox. The only way for wow to make the game more difficult is the introduction of new expansion, more levels so you can again, go for the best loot and then rince and repeat. Cox hasnt had a increase in level cap, and incarnates and sets are end game.

I'd have to argue that IO sets are NOT end-game because I can fully IO out a character at very low levels with the low end IOs. Also, the "level cap" increased with the level shifts from incarnate powers. All of my T4ed lvl 50s are functionally level 51 in normal content and 53 in incarnate content. (See post above in relation to how stupid that whole thing turned out to be.)

[Brutal Justice]

10 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

If you change the HARD cap, popping a purple does precisely nothing, as you yourself stated in the post about bubblers. I'm unsure why you think the defense based sets are king. They aren't as I stated earlier with shield and invul. Mutli-layered protection is king. SR is freakishly awesome in the ITF because Cimerorans lean on defense debuffs and SR sits at 95% DDR. But stick that same SR user in a full spawn of lobsters and squids and it folds like anyone else while the shield user with its increased nrg/neg damres, defense AND ddr sits happy and safe.

I haven’t tested so don’t quote me, but if you take some def debuff and pop a purple, does the purple not counteract some of that debuff by simply adding to your debuffed amount?   

 

You are correct that multilayer protection is the actual king.  But it is the defensive sets that achieve this.  Shield is a defensive set, Invuln can be argued either way.  I mentioned earlier that there is no purely defensive set anymore they all have layers of other mitigation.  I even specifically mentioned shield as a reason it wouldn’t be crippling for defensive powersets.

 

Really I agree with most of your points.  Dps does reduce the need for mitigation.  The need for mitigation does reduce dps though.  I don’t think you would die, but you would slow down a little if hit by more debuffs.  

 

I also agree about bubblers.  They have it rough and this wouldn’t help them.  That would require a whole separate thread though.   Buffing a bubbler will not affect balance, in any significant way.  Same as buffing energy melee didn’t.  Does it do something to balance?  Sure.  Does it upset the game?  No.  It’s one powerset with several different combinations.  

 

The soft cap is the opposite.  It’s available to all fairly easily.  Being hypothetical, if you join a team the odds of one of them having energy melee is X because a claws/sr can’t take energy melee.  The chance for that claws/sr to be on the team is also X the value of X stays constant.  The odds one of those players is at the soft cap is Y because any 7 of them could choose to softcap.  Player choices change the value assigned to Y. I’m not stating that all players softcap.  I’m simply saying, when all can do something, that something, has a huge effect on balance.  If that something is overly powerful you have higher levels of power creep.  Buffing a single set like bubbles is technically power creep, but it would not equate the resistance to power creep that a defense hard cap would provide.

[Infinitum]

37 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

So why is my shield tank superior to my sr tank? I'll tell ya: it has more HP and more resists and when double stacking active defense it has nearly as much DDR. Shield > SR. Full stop.

 

And no, I'm not happy at all with that. Same goes for invul at the high end. Massive resists AND HP AND defense AND good DDR makes it numerically superior.

 

There *should* be balance amongst the powersets within a given AT and there *should* be balance between the ATs. There isn't. THAT'S what should be fixed and nerfing defense won't do that.

Couple of points here I would like to touch on.

 

1. The only way any of those - Invul Shield or SR are unkillable is through extensive IO set bonuses and slotting - otherwise each of them have holes through regular slotting.

 

Its really got nothing to do with powersets.

 

What you mentioned with invul shield and SR also has vulnerabilities to end drains and other -recovery tools the enemy can throw at it - where Fire, Rad, and Elec shrug that particular content off - they struggle against defense debuffers.

 

Ultimately any of them can survive anything but some content requires caution as with anything out there - I have slipped up with my rad and electric on the ITF and let them eat my lunch - I have slipped up on the MLTF with my invul and shield when recluse pops that massive end drain off.

 

Pure resistance sets with no DDR usually excel against any content but debuffers - pop ageless radial and problem solved there also because they have other tools to do other things that accelerate kill rate etc.

 

2. Tanker damage - I dont think its out of line with any other Melee AT - unless you proc the crap out of it - which has its own subset of issues.  I purposely avoid procing damage because 1. I'm not sure it will be around forever and 2. I want an accurate feel for what the powers are actually doing - I'm not saying I am agains procing damage - just that I choose not to do it.

 

But you used the example of shield EM tanker - you should try a EM Shield stalker or an EM EA stalker - those make the tanker damage look putrid - as it should.  Built right with IO sets they can also survive a lot - not like the tanker but enough to excel at their missions.

 

Stalker EM is where the synergy is at because of ST focus with each.

 

Everything has a place, and nothing trends too far into the others territory with how its set up as it is - none of it is any more overpowered than anything else in the game.

[Infinitum]

6 minutes ago, Brutal Justice said:

Shield is a defensive set, Invuln can be argued either way.  I mentioned earlier that there is no purely defensive set anymore they all have layers of other mitigation.  I even specifically mentioned shield as a reason it wouldn’t be crippling for defensive powersets.

Shield, Invul, Ninjitsu, EA, Ice, SR and Stone are Defense/Resistance hybrids

 

willpower is hybrid also more resist/regen though.

 

The only sets that arent hybrid are sets like Rad, Fire, Dark, Elec.  Etc. But they have other tools that aid in survival against other mechanics and usually have damage auras and other kill speed increasers also.

 

It evens out in the end.

[Brutal Justice]

44 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Want to see how weak defense is without DDR?

I really do understand the value of DDR.  I have an ice tank, shield tank, sr tank.  All varying levels of DDR.   

 

46 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Ain't got DDR to protect you? You're goin down.

I agree but blasters don’t have much issue with it since they can wipe out the spawn quickly enough.  Slow them down by removing some of that safety and now they will have issues with it.  Dps reduces the need for mitigation.  Reduced mitigation reduces dps.  

 

50 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

No. Again, an easy test. My claws/sr brute with everything on is immortal against an aggro cap's worth of Cimerorans at max diff.

I did not claim it was at max difficulty.  I said standing on the wall.   It was to point out the value of the layers of mitigation available to even super reflexes.  Not to point out his immortality.  I don’t even need to test it at max diff to know the end result.  

[Brutal Justice]

54 minutes ago, Arbegla said:

I mean, in a vacuum, with each attack coming at you at the same time, and the next attack not hitting until the first was completely recovered from, I would agree with you. 0 is greater then 1.

I understand your point but you’re also not just standing there afk either.   Let’s just assume it’s not a vacuum and we are actively playing our toons.  

 

Can’t balance around skill level, just throwing that out there before somebody quips in about that.  You didn’t say it but somebody would.  

58 minutes ago, Arbegla said:

Building to 55%? Or 58% (the incarnate 'softcap')?

Incarnate content should be more difficult than normal content but that’s really a separate area of balance from normal content.  If defense was hard capped you could drop the ToHit that they posses as a start with probably comparatively small dev resources.  But incarnate content balance is really a separate issue from the 1-50 content.  So I guess my reply to this would be that I don’t want to see normal content affected by incarnate content anymore than it already is.  

 

1 hour ago, Arbegla said:

-Resistance on the other hand, is fairly rare, even in Incarnate content, and doesn't cascade. You might be taking the debuff regardless, but its not going to completely remove your protections like -defense would on a softcapped blaster.

I agree.  That blaster at softcap is part of what I’m trying to address with a 40 hard cap.  Dps reduces the need for mitigation and mitigation reduces the need for dps.  Reduced mitigation reduces dps and reduced dps increases the need for mitigation.  I choose to directly reduce their mitigation and as a by product reduce their dps.  Rather than directly reducing their dps.  I feel this is in line with the idea of the archetype.  

 

1 hour ago, Arbegla said:

This proved more Bill Z Bubba's point than yours. Layers protections (Defense, Resistance, Regen, etc) is more powerful then just relying on 1 aspect completely.

I agree.  I stated defense was king earlier because the topic was specifically about defense. I apologize.  Layers are king.  I was trying to show the value of the layers that exist in the most defensive armor set.  

[Brutal Justice]

41 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Shield, Invul, Ninjitsu, EA, Ice, SR and Stone are Defense/Resistance hybrids

 

willpower is hybrid also more resist/regen though.

 

The only sets that arent hybrid are sets like Rad, Fire, Dark, Elec.  Etc. But they have other tools that aid in survival against other mechanics and usually have damage auras and other kill speed increasers also.

 

It evens out in the end.

They could all technically be called hybrids.  Just in layman’s terms shield is defense, electric is resists etc.  

[Infinitum]

13 minutes ago, Brutal Justice said:

They could all technically be called hybrids.  Just in layman’s terms shield is defense, electric is resists etc.  

Shield isnt just defense though. You can say that 100 times it doesn't make it true.

 

Precision matters especially when you are explaining to potentially new people how certain sets work.

 

Shield isnt a defensive set - its a hybrid set with a team defense boost, damage per enemy boost, with no heal.

 

That just brought up a good point if you hard cap defense powers like grant cover etc will be largely useless then.

 

Thats one of the many reasons your idea and premise is flawed - because its more than a nerf - its a complete game rebuild and restructure for a net result the majority doesn't even want, need, ore even address the issue the OP is discussing.

Edited January 27, 2021 by Infinitum

[Ukase]

11 hours ago, parabola said:

This right here is where there is a huge difference in perception driving the two sides of this argument. People who view the game as primarily a solo game with an option for teaming are of course not going to be all that concerned about balance issues affecting teaming. They just want to be able to 'solo all the things'. But those of us who see CoH as an mmo first and foremost and who view teaming as the bedrock of the game (or at least feel it should be), tend to be those expressing concerns about how the team experience is being affected by powercreep.

 

And don't misunderstand me, I play at odd times and really value being able to solo well in this game, but as far as I'm concerned soloing absolutely shouldn't be the balancing point. If the soloability of my characters takes a hit in a balance pass so be it, in my opinion the game would be healthier as a result. No one is suggesting that soloing is removed as an option, just that if people can solo at maximum difficulty it doesn't leave much room for teaming.

I want you to know I do appreciate your perspective. When making decisions in the real world, I try to think of what the best choice is not only for me, but for my family. And not only for today, but next month, next year and so on. 

As someone who's an officer in an SG, I completely understand that our community has a relatively large number of people who really, really want to team up doing...well, just about anything. They are almost thirsting for it. The pandemic may have some small measure of responsibility for that, but by and large, I think many people enjoy teaming with others more than doing content solo. If you have some amusing teammates, they can certainly make things more amusing than going the solo route. 

But, I have to ask myself how I would feel if soloing were no longer as viable. But, ultimately, I have to cede the point that it doesn't matter how I would feel. What matters is the health of the game and the community as a whole. I'm afraid I don't have a solution beyond me not really seeing a tremendous need for any changes. 

I do recognize there's a large spread between our speed runners and our "noob" or "newb" players. Heck, even a casual player is light years away from some of our speed runners who seem to flawlessly navigate through "cake rooms" (those bluish/gray cave maps) without muss or fuss. Some can't be bothered to improve to that level. Some can't approach that level due to just slow eye/hand coordination, and some lack the computer system to load pages fast enough to even think about speeding. And some just have fun hopping/flying/speeding/teleporting all over town and don't even try to kill anything. They take a free farm to get high enough to travel and are quite content to stay in Atlas and chatter for hours. 

I just don't see how changing anything with IOs will change that gap, because it seems to be that mindset of the players is what's responsible for that gap, not the IOs they're slotted with. But what the heck do I know? Not much!