+4x8 LRSF - A humbling experience for my poison / fire / dark defender

[EnjoyTheJourney]

I'm still pretty new to the LRSF. My previous runs have been set to the lowest difficulty, or at least I've somehow been shielded from the difficulty being set at +4x8, with very few defeats suffered in the first half dozen runs or thereabouts. 

 

That changed when I ran my poison / fire / dark yesterday in a speedy +4x8 LRSF. There were several players who didn't get defeated at all (including a fire / temporal blaster, which suggests knowledge of the strike force is key to doing well). But, my poison / fire / dark defender, who typically thrives in melee, probably had more defeats during that one strike force run than she has had during all previous playtime put together. No other in-game challenges even came close, including MLTFs, +4x8 ITFs, numerous Tin/Pex runs, and so on. So, I have questions about what specific knowledge is needed for the LRSF to keep being in melee safer (or when is it best to stay out of melee as a poisoner). I also have questions about whether her build may need rethinking, if clear flaws are visible (build details below).

 

Something that can't easily be conveyed through a Mids snapshot is that she had T4 incarnates for everything except interface and judgment when running LRSF yesterday. Also, combat teleport, teleport friend / foe, and fold space are the teleport skills actually taken, which can't be shown with the Mids version I am currently using. Feedback is welcome!

 

Hero Plan by Mids' Reborn : Hero Designer 2.6.0.7
https://github.com/ImaginaryDevelopment/imaginary-hero-designer

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Ivy Burns: Level 50 Science Defender
Primary Power Set: Poison
Secondary Power Set: Fire Blast
Power Pool: Sorcery
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Teleportation
Power Pool: Speed
Ancillary Pool: Dark Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Envenom -- HO:Enzym(A), AchHee-ResDeb%(42)
Level 1: Flares -- SprVglAss-Dmg/Rchg(A), SprVglAss-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(9), SprVglAss-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(11)
Level 2: Weaken -- CldSns-ToHitDeb(A), CldSns-Acc/Rchg(7), CldSns-ToHitDeb/EndRdx/Rchg(7), CldSns-Acc/ToHitDeb(9), CldSns-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(11), CldSns-%Dam(13)
Level 4: Fire Ball -- Rgn-Dmg(A), Rgn-Dmg/Rchg(13), Rgn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(15), Rgn-Dmg/EndRdx(15), Rgn-Knock%(17)
Level 6: Mystic Flight -- BlsoftheZ-ResKB(A), BlsoftheZ-Travel/EndRdx(42), Frb-Stlth(43)
Level 8: Maneuvers -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(19), Rct-ResDam%(21), Ksm-ToHit+(25)
Level 10: Teleport -- WntGif-ResSlow(A)
Level 12: Spirit Ward -- Prv-Absorb%(A)
Level 14: Tactics -- AdjTrg-ToHit(A), AdjTrg-EndRdx/Rchg(19), AdjTrg-ToHit/EndRdx(21), AdjTrg-ToHit/EndRdx/Rchg(34), AdjTrg-ToHit/Rchg(40)
Level 16: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(17)
Level 18: Teleport Foe -- Empty(A), Empty(43)
Level 20: Rune of Protection -- UnbGrd-EndRdx/Rchg(A), UnbGrd-ResDam(23), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(23), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam(25), GldArm-3defTpProc(31), RechRdx-I(37)
Level 22: Aim -- GssSynFr--Build%(A), GssSynFr--Rchg/EndRdx(46)
Level 24: Team Teleport -- Empty(A)
Level 26: Poison Trap -- SprEnt-Rchg/AbsorbProc(A), GhsWdwEmb-Dam%(27), NrnSht-Dam%(27), GldNet-Dam%(29), UnbCns-Dam%(29), FuroftheG-ResDeb%(33)
Level 28: Blaze -- SprVglAss-Acc/Dmg(A), SprVglAss-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(34), SprVglAss-Rchg/+Absorb(34), GldJvl-Dam%(37), Apc-Dmg/EndRdx(43), Apc-Dam%(45)
Level 30: Paralytic Poison -- BslGaz-Acc/Hold(A), BslGaz-Acc/Rchg(31), BslGaz-EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(31), BslGaz-Rchg/Hold(42)
Level 32: Venomous Gas -- DmpSpr-ToHitDeb/Rchg/EndRdx(A), DmpSpr-ToHitDeb(33), DmpSpr-ToHitDeb/EndRdx(33)
Level 35: Blazing Bolt -- StnoftheM-Acc/Dmg(A), StnoftheM-Dmg/EndRdx(36), StnoftheM-Dmg/ActRdx/Rchg(36), StnoftheM-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(36), StnoftheM-Dam%(37), SprDfnBst-Rchg/Heal%(50)
Level 38: Inferno -- Arm-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(A), Arm-Dmg/Rchg(39), Arm-Acc/Rchg(39), Arm-Dmg/EndRdx(39), Arm-Dam%(40), Erd-%Dam(40)
Level 41: Oppressive Gloom -- RopADop-Stun/Rng(A)
Level 44: Dark Embrace -- StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(A), UnbGrd-Max HP%(45), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(45), UnbGrd-ResDam(46), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(46)
Level 47: Soul Drain -- Obl-Dmg(A), Obl-Acc/Rchg(48), Obl-Dmg/Rchg(48), Obl-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(48), Obl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(50), Obl-%Dam(50)
Level 49: Vengeance -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Quick Form 
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Vigilance 
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run 
Level 2: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Health -- Pnc-Heal/+End(A), NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(3), Mrc-Rcvry+(3)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- PrfShf-End%(A), PwrTrns-EndMod(5), PwrTrns-+Heal(5)
Level 50: Pyronic Core Final Judgement 
Level 50: Reactive Radial Flawless Interface 
Level 50: Melee Core Embodiment 
Level 50: Barrier Core Epiphany 
Level 50: Intuition Radial Paragon 
Level 0: Freedom Phalanx Reserve 
Level 0: Portal Jockey 
Level 0: Task Force Commander 
Level 0: The Atlas Medallion 
Level 50: Phantom Radial Superior Ally 
------------

Edited March 2, 2021 by EnjoyTheJourney
Added build information

[Dahkness]

Thats a hard task force.

Edited March 3, 2021 by Hops

[Nemu]

Longbow is nasty in droves and the debuffs they stack can quickly catch players off guard, fortunately you can move out of the -res debuff area, the AVs resist your debuffs, you have low defense to start out with, and chances are you didn't position/move yourself when you should have.

 

With defenses like that you are probably getting pin cushioned by range attacks speeding past mobs. On top of that you have no stealth capabilities. There is a reason Super Speed+stealth IO is favored for squishy speed run builds. I bet you were probably also trying to speed by with VG turned on which doesn't help you at all.

 

If you plan to be able to do speed runs with that build here are the following build changes you should consider:

 

Stealth - either SS + Stealth IO or something similar for full invis to help you sneak past mobs, even just a stealth IO in sprint can be a huge difference if you pay attention to mob aggro radius.

Softcapped Range Defense - Speed runs are all about ignoring adds and those adds will all shoot at you from range. You debuffs won't help you here.

 

Play style considerations:

 

Know when to move - when under a debuff patch.

Know where to position yourself - during AV fights and you are getting hit with PBAoEs, VG is 15 feet, stand behind the AV and keep your distance out of melee reach.

Edited March 2, 2021 by Nemu

[Darkir]

One of the biggest problems with the poison fire pairing is that it completely lacks a heal. You rely on only being hit 5% of the time coupled with good resistances to keep you alive and some damage debuffs, but that's it. If defense debuffs come into play, this is a prime example of a defense debuff cascade death (hits have a 5% chance to hit you, but then you get hit with one defense debuffs and all of a sudden it's a 10% chance to get hit, but now another debuff got through because it was 10% and now it's 15% and all of a sudden you are taking 3x the damage you normally take and then....nevermind you're already face planted). Especially when you couple this with the higher lvl harder hitting mobs it causes major problems for the build and pairing. This is why I always recommend pairing water blast (for the dehydrate heal) with sets that don't have a self heal, it adds one more layer of survivability that you absolutely need in harder content. 

 

One of the things you can do to help with this is to take either barrier or the ageless radial (defense debuff resistance) destiny powers with you when you know you will be going against harder mobs.

[Ankhammon]

Soul Transfer. If you stand back up and they get stunned, you didn't faceplant it was just a ploy to stun em all. 🙂

 

You Win!

 

Also Neurotoxic Breath is severely underrated in my book. -81.25 recharge ruins a lot of incoming damage potential from the baddies.

[Ankhammon]

14 minutes ago, Darkir said:

One of the biggest problems with the poison fire pairing is that it completely lacks a heal. You rely on only being hit 5% of the time coupled with good resistances to keep you alive and some damage debuffs, but that's it. If defense debuffs come into play, this is a prime example of a defense debuff cascade death (hits have a 5% chance to hit you, but then you get hit with one defense debuffs and all of a sudden it's a 10% chance to get hit, but now another debuff got through because it was 10% and now it's 15% and all of a sudden you are taking 3x the damage you normally take and then....nevermind you're already face planted). Especially when you couple this with the higher lvl harder hitting mobs it causes major problems for the build and pairing. This is why I always recommend pairing water blast (for the dehydrate heal) with sets that don't have a self heal, it adds one more layer of survivability that you absolutely need in harder content. 

 

One of the things you can do to help with this is to take either barrier or the ageless radial (defense debuff resistance) destiny powers with you when you know you will be going against harder mobs.

if it's survival you are looking for Dark Blast is nothing to sneeze at.

[Hjarki]

49 minutes ago, Darkir said:

One of the biggest problems with the poison fire pairing is that it completely lacks a heal. You rely on only being hit 5% of the time coupled with good resistances to keep you alive and some damage debuffs, but that's it.

10% of the time in +4. Poison also really suffers from lack of status protection. If even one of those holds/sleeps/disorients gets through, you die in a hurry.

[Darkir]

On 3/2/2021 at 7:08 PM, Hjarki said:

10% of the time in +4. Poison also really suffers from lack of status protection. If even one of those holds/sleeps/disorients gets through, you die in a hurry.

Ummmmm what? Mobs don't get an inherent +tohit bonus until +6 lvls to you.

 

• "Any attack with more Accuracy bonuses than penalties will have a guaranteed chance of hitting greater than the well-publicized 5% minimum. To be exact, it'll be 5% × AccMods."

 

https://archive.paragonwiki.com/wiki/Attack_Mechanics

 

They do get a lvl based acc modifier to their chance to land a hit, but even at +4 that modifier is only 1.4 so it would be 5%x1.4=7% chance to hit, but this is the LSRF (lvl 45-50) and he has a tier 3  alpha so all the mobs are only +3 so its really 5%x1.3=6.5% chance to hit. This of course is only for the minions because mobs also get an acc mod based on there rank: minions 1.0, lieutenants 1.15, bosses, elite bosses, and snipers 1.30, and AVs/GMs 1.50. 

 

So the floor for mobs to hit you based on rank and acc lvl mods with softcapped defenses at +4 without the alpha is:

 

softcap so its (5%)x(lvl based acc mod)x(rank based acc mod)

 

 

minions: 7%

lieutenants: 8.05%

bosses, elite bosses, and snipers: 9.1%

AVs/GMs: 10.5%

 

and with softcapped defenses at +4 with the alpha (a simpler way to say this is just +3):

 

minions: 6.5%

lieutenants: 7.475%

bosses, elite bosses, and snipers: 8.45%

AVs/GMs: 9.75%

 

I have absolutely no idea where you got 10% from. Are you thinking that he is faceplanting while fighting hordes of AVs? Are you just oversimplifying in response to my own simplification (oversimplification?) of just saying 5% because I didn't want to get into all this?

 

Not wanting to go into all this is why most of us just say 5% and stop worrying about it.

 

Edited March 4, 2021 by Darkir

[EnjoyTheJourney]

Thank you all for the feedback. 

 

Thinking about the feedback here and reflecting on the SF it's most likely a combination of three main things that went wrong.

 

First, with ranged defense at only 20% debuffs were getting through fairly often, at times. I'll read more about longbow and learn what debuffs they use. I'll also be more proactive about using defense inspirations.

 

Second, I underestimated how much damage can pile up when fighting multiple AVs at the time. Since on most past LRSF runs I played characters that were at least softcapped the rate of incoming damage wasn't really an issue of concern. But, that misplaced overconfidence based on past experiences led to some bad positioning choices. I also settled at times for targeting through the tank instead of trying look more carefully at the AVs to read which way they were facing.

 

Third, I kept stubbornly trying to rez after defeats and then got defeated again in a few seconds or less in several cases. One hit was for over 2100 hit points, received almost immediately after rezzing, at which point my character was still rising off the ground ... only to sink back down again. The effects of bad positioning strike more than once in such situations because if my character was in the line of fire when defeated the first time, that may not have changed when trying to rez a few seconds later. A bit more patience about when to rez would seem appropo, and a bit more effort to check on where AVs were pointed when casting cones / PbAOEs would also make sense. 

[Doomguide2005]

2 hours ago, EnjoyTheJourney said:

Thank you all for the feedback. 

 

Thinking about the feedback here and reflecting on the SF it's most likely a combination of three main things that went wrong.

 

First, with ranged defense at only 20% debuffs were getting through fairly often, at times. I'll read more about longbow and learn what debuffs they use. I'll also be more proactive about using defense inspirations.

<more stuff>

     Just skimmed through their wiki entry as a refresher.  Just about everyone of them at that level has a ranged attack that carries a defdebuff.  I'm guessing at least in part your 20% ranged defense was regularly going the way of the Dodo if you weren't using lucks+.  Likely this exasperated getting hammered in melee by things like Bonecrusher attacks by other Longbow.  You move into melee, ranged guys pepper you and not only does your ranged defense go south but so does your melee, aoe, etc.. and the generally harder hitting melee attacks start landing.  Monitor your combat attributes and carry purple inspires.

[Meknomancer]

Speed run says it all, my bet is you were running round with venemous toggle, as you should it takes time to retoggle when you hit av's. Team mates fly past mobs aggroing them, hit the next mob aggroing them too, go over the aggro cap and now all those mobs are looking to blast stuff and here you come with venemous tagging them. And you have no defence. And no heal. The most obvious thing i saw is you have no superspeed for a speed run so were you running mystic flight or trying to teleport past them? Simplest fix for me in situations like this is take superspeed and scorpion shield and bump your defence to at least 45% s/l. You'll still get debuffed and die but you'll die a lot less because you'll be moving faster. Speed counts on a speed run.

[Meknomancer]

And as a poisoner you should always be in melee. Permanently. Its your best survival skill.

[EnjoyTheJourney]

Doomguide - I also noticed the heavy preponderance of ranged def debuffs when reading the wiki, plus some resistance debuffs. Basically, longbow are a bit like ranged Cims, but only more dangerous because resistance debuffs are particularly damaging when used by mobs that also have lots of defense debuffs.  

 

The advice to carry purples and oranges should work just fine for LRSF, given the debuffs in play. It might be simpler, though, to just run my poison defender in content that she's better suited to handle, which is pretty much all other content. I have two characters that do better than fine in LRSF runs and I'll probably just stick with them instead*.

 

It's a bit of a lazy approach, probably, but it's most likely what I'll do. 

 

Thank you all for your feedback. It is much appreciated. 

 

* A Storm / Water defender with full invis and softcapped ranged defenses, plus a Psy / SR sentinel with stealth and softcapped positional defenses.