rework/touch up mind control

[spiralmenace]

mind control needs some major help. it's arguably the most underperforming primary for controllers due to lack of ways to set/deal containment damage against groups and lack of damage overall, although it's significantly better on dominators thanks to their inherent and secondary sets. i propose rearranging the power order and buffing a handful of the skills

 

• current order:
  • t1: mesmerize
  • t2: levitate
  • t3: dominate
  • t4: confuse
  • t5: mass hypnosis
  • t6: telekinesis
  • t7: total domination
  • t8: terrify
  • t9: mass confusion

• revised order:
  • t1: mesmerize
  • t2: levitate
  • t3: dominate
  • t4: mass hypnosis (reduce recharge to 20 seconds maybe? closer to AoE immobilize skills in other control primaries, the powerset needs a semi-spammable aoe containment setup)
  • t5: mass confusion (reduce recharge to 90 seconds, not quite as fast as seeds of confusion but still magnitudes better than it has been. there's no reason it should have been that bad for this long)
  • t6: terrify (also enable fear to trigger containment damage. why it never did on live is beyond me)
  • t7: total domination
  • t8: telekinesis (increase the hold magnitude from 3 to 4, to allow for control of boss mobs)
  • t9: new skill: Subjugate, force a single enemy at a time to ally with the player until death
    OR
    t9: Psionic Nexus, largely identical to the one summoned by penny yin as a freedom phalanx hero actually no. put nexus in a psionic-themed support set akin to dark servant from dark miasma/affinity.

 

feels like way past time that mind control was brought up to the level of other sets. it'd still kind of lack the same damage potential as other control primaries, but i feel like it'd gain some identity in being able to fairly rapidly cycle aoe shutdown controls.

Edited May 27, 2023 by spiralmenace
post body is actually here now. ctrl+enter to submit post is a bad hotkey

[spiralmenace]

for what it's worth i initially thought that matching the cooldown on mass hypnosis with AoE immobs was a good idea, but upon a little further thought an 8-second cooldown on a 15-second aoe sleep available at level 6 is probably a really bad idea for early game balance. also matching mass confusion's cooldown to seeds of confusion is also almost definitely a poor idea given that seeds is (debatably) due for a bit of a nerf relative to its place in its own set

[SwitchFade]

There's two very extensive mind rework threads that exist, I recommend bumping those and adding to them, also, reading into them might give you some ideas nd what's already been covered.

 

Not that I think you should not post, just suggesting also posting there.

[SwitchFade]

@spiralmenace

 

Here's one

 

[SwitchFade]

@spiralmenace

 

And the other

 

[spiralmenace]

@SwitchFade thanks for the links, definitely seeing some good ideas in those other threads. 👍

 

i hadn't initially noticed that terrify is so much worse than fearsome stare. could definitely stand to raise the damage and accuracy and drop the end cost a bit, also remove that vile 0.25s delay before the fear inflicts. that's probably a good chunk of why mind control feels so Bad

[Mezmera]

It looks like you're substituting confuse for a power exactly like confuse but at t9 instead of t4.  Sure they could rework the sleep to behave a bit more like elec's sleep.  The mass confusion is fine as it is, Mind control is a legacy set and the live devs saw it prudent to tinker with it to the iteration that we have now.  I don't see any change necessary, it was OP before and now with IOs it's a real strong power currently.  The problem is Seeds of Confusion is a bit too good and since Plant was a later powerset it never got the revisit that Mass Confusion got.  If anything I'd say tone down Seeds a tad.  TK is a tricky one, currently it's a skippable power, if they made it control 8 targets I'd think that would be a happy compromise, it still shouldn't accept any sets since I see problems with pulsing procs arising.  

 

If I were to have a revision to Mind Control I'd likely swap Confuse to t2 and Levitate to t4.  TK set it for 8 targets.  Maybe have a look at the sleep to make it a pulse.  Since every control set gets an AoE mass hold I wouldn't be opposed to giving Controllers the ability for it to proc an additional mag hold, in essence giving them the control doms get just with this one power.  And with the AoE hold for doms I'd give it a minor to moderate damage proc.  No recharge reduction on anything is necessary.  Other than that I'd say Mind Control is fine and dandy.  

[Grindingsucks]

Trying out a Mind/Force Field controller, presently.  Only have him up to lvl 25, at the present, so not sure how he'll perform once I hit higher levels.  I'll add my 2 bit's to this thread once I've gotten his T8's & 9's and had some solid experience using them.

[Greycat]

Eh. I prefer having both a single target and mass confuse. There are times I just want to confuse one thing and keep it along. And don't want to wait 'til 32 for that - it's too useful.

 

Also, meh on a pet. I like that Mind doesn't have one (or has a *lot,* depending on your POV.)

[Grindingsucks]

I'm discovering that you can pull off some fun tricks with Mind/FF.  I tried running that new arc, The Graveyard shift again, with my controller.  The 3rd or 4th mission, where you crash the rave in the warehouse that is packed with all those orange con Freaks has always been some of the most challenging content in the game for me (feel free to search the forums for folks bitching about the difficulty 😁).

 

With a Mind controller, though,  you can literally amble through the warehouse and hardly ever even get damaged.  Confuse lets you turn all the freaks against each other.  You can then finish off whatever remains at your leisure.

 

I had a blast in the final room at the end.  Try confusing the big tank on the platform up above the warehouse floor, then use force bolt to knock him onto the level below and watch has he wades into the stunner chiefs and creates havok.  What a hoot! 😂

[EmperorSteele]

Yeah, this is what people don't always get about Mind Control. It is literally the safest set to play, when its tools are utilized correctly. The downside is that it's not very suited to the current team-meta. You can't keep foes afraid or slept if everyone else attacks/kills them. Confuse a field generator or a Sorcerer? Nope, they get killed first. Heck, you can't even keep foes TKd if someone kills your anchor. And yeah, it's not very well suited for taking down AVs (it can, it just needs a lot of help from pool and secondary powers).

 

But solo? You're safer than any other Controller vs a large number of trash mobs. That's its strength. It'd be nice if it were stronger at other things, though 😃

Edited March 9, 2021 by EmperorSteele
A word, damn mobile

[Uun]

Hard no on dropping Confuse. If was to drop anything it would be Telekinesis, although I'm not sold on Subjugate or Psionic Nexus. I'm OK with Mass Confusion staying the T9, but I agree that a reduction in recharge is in order. 

 

Allow fear and confuse to set up containment.

 

Give Levitate the same bonus damage treatment that Lift got when used on foes held with Gravity Distortion.

[Mezmera]

1 hour ago, Uun said:

Hard no on dropping Confuse. If was to drop anything it would be Telekinesis, although I'm not sold on Subjugate or Psionic Nexus. I'm OK with Mass Confusion staying the T9, but I agree that a reduction in recharge is in order. 

 

Allow fear and confuse to set up containment.

 

Give Levitate the same bonus damage treatment that Lift got when used on foes held with Gravity Distortion.

Reduction in recharge would seem to me to severely reduce the proc chance for Contagious Confusion that reapplies more confusion which allows you the aoe control of a dominator in this one click every so often which I'd assume controllers would like to have.  There's already so much aoe control in Mind there's no need for reduction in any recharge for anything.  Between mobs I alternate Mass Confusion and Total Domination and sprinkle in a bit of Terrify where needed, mind you this is on my dominator and the instantaneous control on Mind doms is a beauty. 

 

I think the problem is some are equating how Mass Confusion should work to how Seeds of Confusion currently works.  Seeds is too good imo and if this game was on live for longer likely would have gotten a nerf to it just like Mass Confusion received because it was OP.  

 

I have no issue visiting how maybe just the aoe holds for controllers could proc an extra mag hold to give you a taste of the control that doms get.  Do keep in mind though you're survivability is inherently much better because of your secondaries so don't hold everything between the two ATs to a common standard.  

 

Although I can't wait to Subjugate Ghost Widow!

Edited March 9, 2021 by Mezmera

[Uun]

15 minutes ago, Mezmera said:

I think the problem is some are equating how Mass Confusion should work to how Seeds of Confusion currently works.  Seeds is too good imo and if this game was on live for longer likely would have gotten a nerf to it just like Mass Confusion received because it was OP.  

I've got lvl 50 Mind and Plant doms on HC and previously had lvl 50 Mind and Plant controllers on live. I have no desire for Mass Confusion to work like Seeds, nor for it to recharge as quickly. There's a huge benefit to having a no-aggro AoE confuse. That said, I think 4 minutes could be cut to 2 without unbalancing anything.

[Mezmera]

7 minutes ago, Uun said:

I've got lvl 50 Mind and Plant doms on HC and previously had lvl 50 Mind and Plant controllers on live. I have no desire for Mass Confusion to work like Seeds, nor for it to recharge as quickly. There's a huge benefit to having a no-aggro AoE confuse. That said, I think 4 minutes could be cut to 2 without unbalancing anything.

No, confusing every mob with no fight back doesn't sound fun nor fair to the npcs to me.  Currently at least you have to leverage the other controls available.  With such a recharge you can just take Mass Confusion and there'd be no need of anything else in the powerset.

[golstat2003]

50 minutes ago, Mezmera said:

No, confusing every mob with no fight back doesn't sound fun nor fair to the npcs to me.  Currently at least you have to leverage the other controls available.  With such a recharge you can just take Mass Confusion and there'd be no need of anything else in the powerset.

I actually find Mass Confusion boring as hell. I skip it every single time. There are better powers for my dom to take. And no lowering the recharge would not make me take it ever. If there was an option for a pet for mind, I'd take that over Mass Confusion.

 

Not every thing is about most optimal. To each their own.

 

If there was a choice to get rid of Mass Confusion and give Mind an actual pet, I'd agree with the devs making that choice.

Edited March 9, 2021 by golstat2003

[Mezmera]

1 minute ago, golstat2003 said:

I actually find Mass Confusion boring as hell. I skip every single time. There are better powers for my dom to take. And no lowering the recharge would not make me take it ever. If there was an option for a pet for mind, I'd take that over Mass Confusion.

 

To each their own.

If you want a pet why be Mind Control?  I'd assume Dark would be a better draw for you.  The petless nature of Mind control is one of the major appeals.  Mass Confusion IS the best power of all the powers in that set and reducing the recharge by any amount would be breaking the game.  At least you should know that you are knowingly gimping yourself.  

 

You're welcome to venture along with my dom any day.  She will blow your Mind.  

[golstat2003]

5 hours ago, Mezmera said:

If you want a pet why be Mind Control?  I'd assume Dark would be a better draw for you.  The petless nature of Mind control is one of the major appeals.  Mass Confusion IS the best power of all the powers in that set and reducing the recharge by any amount would be breaking the game.  At least you should know that you are knowingly gimping yourself.  

 

You're welcome to venture along with my dom any day.  She will blow your Mind.  

Actually I do prefer fire, dark, etc over mind. 🙂 

[Mezmera]

20 hours ago, golstat2003 said:

Actually I do prefer fire, dark, etc over mind. 🙂 

Okay then, shall I go to a Dark Control topic and complain about the t9 pet that I don't take even though when I don't take it I don't get the feel for how useful it really is?  Skipping Mass Confusion wishing it were in lieu of a pet like in all of the other control sets you can play reads like you have little familiarity on the subject.   

Edited March 11, 2021 by Mezmera

[golstat2003]

On 3/10/2021 at 6:50 PM, Mezmera said:

Okay then, shall I go to a Dark Control topic and complain about the t9 pet that I don't take even though when I don't take it I don't get the feel for how useful it really is?  Skipping Mass Confusion wishing it were in lieu of a pet like in all of the other control sets you can play reads like you have little familiarity on the subject.   

I have plenty of familiarity with the subject. I have level 50 mind controllers and doms here and on live. I also have multiple other doms and controllers, here and on live.

 

Which is why I'm qualified to say I find Mass Confusion boring.

 

This is an open forum. Opposing opinions are allowed.

Edited March 12, 2021 by golstat2003

[Mezmera]

17 hours ago, golstat2003 said:

I have plenty of familiarity with the subject. I have level 50 mind controllers and doms here and on live. I also have multiple other doms and controllers, here and on live.

 

Which is why I'm qualified to say I find Mass Confusion boring.

 

This is an open forum. Opposing opinions are allowed.

 

That's fine yes opinion's are subjective. 

 

The power to you may be boring yes but it doesn't change the fact that it's still the best power in the set.  Sometimes boring is in how someone is deploying the power.  So yes if you play in a boring manner the results in your experience would seem to equate to a boring power.

 

I suspect I have quite a different play style and thus don't find this power boring in the least.  I do find having to wait for a pet to catch up to me and occupy a target or two quite tame as opposed to controlling the whole group and helping them smash each other.  

[Uun]

52 minutes ago, Mezmera said:

The power to you may be boring yes but it doesn't change the fact that it's still the best power in the set. 

That's your opinion, not a fact. With a 4 minute recharge, Mass Confusion is situational at best. IMO, Terrify is the best power in the set.

[SwitchFade]

16 minutes ago, Uun said:

That's your opinion, not a fact. With a 4 minute recharge, Mass Confusion is situational at best. IMO, Terrify is the best power in the set.

Brawl.

 

Brawl is the best power in all sets.

 

6 slot brawl.

[Mezmera]

10 minutes ago, SwitchFade said:

Brawl.

 

Brawl is the best power in all sets.

 

6 slot brawl.

 

Then how do you 6 slot sprint then hmm?

[Mezmera]

1 hour ago, Uun said:

That's your opinion, not a fact. With a 4 minute recharge, Mass Confusion is situational at best. IMO, Terrify is the best power in the set.

 

Terrify is a nice filler power, but in terms of control its soft at best.  It's not a reliable control.  I do have it to layer in my control after I drop Mass Confusion or Total Domination. 

 

The time it takes to clear the particular mob when you drop Mass Confusion is much much faster than any other power available in the set.  The next mob then you can leverage your other aoe hard control Total Domination then the next mob its right back with Mass Confusion. 

 

You all act like its a hard task to alternate the two hard aoe controls available to you unlike what you can get in any other control set.  I'd assume you'd want to take advantage of the uniqueness of Mind Control but hey what do I know.  

Edited March 13, 2021 by Mezmera