A modest proposal - Eliminate Sameness by removing the ability to Softcap. (Long)

[Heraclea]

Very difficult content already exists in the game, and it exists in spite of players' current level of defense and skill. 

 

Case in point:  Moonfire TF.  Yes, that Moonfire.  Currently the Dr. Todd mission is very often completed by the ATT trick, which probably is a cheat that should be removed.  She is squirly and suicidal, and worse, has kinetics powers, which mean she is wont to run off randomly and will do that if she sees any mob.  If I wanted to add difficult content, I would not nerf any one's powerset but I would add more content like this and raise the stakes.  Rather like keeping Desdemona alive in the Underground Trial, losing Dr. Todd fails the TF.  This wouldn't nerf anyone, but would put clearing and controlling ambushes and controlling aggro at a premium.   It would require a bit of teamwork, in other words.   The template for harder content is right there.

[Andreah]

I like it when content has us think a little, now and then. But not too much, or for many of us, it turns into work. Or especially if the tactical problem becomes so nuanced it requires voice-comms coordination to get it right.  I love you all, but I do not want your voices coming out of my computer; not now, not ever.

[Naraka]

13 hours ago, golstat2003 said:

 

Or how about we don't waste anyone's time. At this point we all might as well agree to disagree.

The HC devs seems to not want to make any massive game breaking changes. I'm fine with that.

 

If that ever changes I'll take my own advice and go to another server for good. No harm no foul. (I'm sure others will also).

Are you complaining that you are responding to a thread with an idea you don't agree with?

 

As for the discussion at hand, even if the devs start considering reassessing IO bonuses out incarnate powers, it still goes through a phase of testing and I've seen quite a few changes not make it out of the test servers. You can complain all day and threaten to swap servers but that's hardly an interesting conversation, imo.

[Naraka]

2 hours ago, Andreah said:

There are a lot of problems with CoH's system. But it works. That alone does encourage the HC developers to be very deliberate, cautious, and minimalist with changes to the core mechanics.

 

Now, we're free to make suggestions and speculate on how they might affect gameplay. But keep a reasonable perspective about it. When I suggest something, I won't suffer terrible disappointment when it's not in i29. And on the other hand, if someone makes a suggestion I think is terrible, it's not a threat to my ability to play the game, for the same reason -- it's not about to suddenly show up in the next build, or even the one after.

 

A suggestion I've made before, and will probably make again, is to adjust the critter attacking players to-hit table in the original purple patch. This would change the effective softcap, in some high-difficulty content. Don't think for a moment that this wouldn't be a huge change, even if it turned out to be as simple on the development end as changing three numbers in a data table. They know some changes have huge repercussions. Nothing like that would goin without a lot of internal debate, and the further public debate with us. It might have good sides, but it would also have bad sides.

 

So, suggest, speculate, discuss, advocate, all that. But also let's remember to be excellent to each other along the way.

And here i was starting to believe I was the only non-sensationalist here. 

 

Changing the To-Hit calc for higher level mobs (compared) could also aid in extending the range of levels. I always thought it would be better to have a 10-level span where the same level mobs should be a bit tougher and the mobs that go to +6 and +7 would be the max and have -2 be the min for xp and drops. 

[srmalloy]

15 hours ago, golstat2003 said:

 

This what it pretty much boils down to every time this thread comes out. "I don't want to change my playstyle or form my own teams for whatever reason, but I'd sure like to control how everyone else plays" . . .

Unfortunately, this appears to be endemic to the human condition -- you see exactly the same thing with people trying to get laws passed banning something because they don't think other people should be allowed to do it, not because it's something that they're unreasonably tempted to do and they want the law to help them stop doing it.

[RunoKnows]

4 hours ago, Naraka said:

And here i was starting to believe I was the only non-sensationalist here. 

It must be incredibly disorienting when you look down on people whose horses aren't as tall as yours, huh

[Leogunner]

2 hours ago, srmalloy said:

Unfortunately, this appears to be endemic to the human condition -- you see exactly the same thing with people trying to get laws passed banning something because they don't think other people should be allowed to do it, not because it's something that they're unreasonably tempted to do and they want the law to help them stop doing it.

 

Sure.  But if you're going to make that analogy, why not look at the intent as well?

 

You'll have some people pushing for banning things because it's a sin or it's too dangerous and it can potentially kill people or "think of the children!!", basically a bunch of moralistic arguments.  So who here is appealing to emotions and ethics and morals?  Just having the discussion is a far cry from "wanting to control people".

[Leogunner]

2 minutes ago, RunoKnows said:

It must be incredibly disorienting when you look down on people whose horses aren't as tall as yours, huh

 

Considering your past posts saying it's "literally delete people's characters", guilt-tripping people by outlining the "billions of influence and tons of IOs" and how you're "making your dream comic book character", should you really be commenting about sensationalizing stuff?

 

 

[golstat2003]

4 hours ago, Naraka said:

Are you complaining that you are responding to a thread with an idea you don't agree with?

 

As for the discussion at hand, even if the devs start considering reassessing IO bonuses out incarnate powers, it still goes through a phase of testing and I've seen quite a few changes not make it out of the test servers. You can complain all day and threaten to swap servers but that's hardly an interesting conversation, imo.

 

No threats. Just saying there will be changes that not everyone agrees with and luckily there are other COH servers to play on.

 

Pretty simple for anyone to understand. YMMV.

 

EDIT: Bah not worth it. /shrug.

Edited March 28, 2021 by golstat2003

[RunoKnows]

26 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

 

Considering your past posts saying it's "literally delete people's characters", guilt-tripping people by outlining the "billions of influence and tons of IOs" and how you're "making your dream comic book character", should you really be commenting about sensationalizing stuff?

 

 

First off: Quote any one of my posts -- heck, quote multiple posts if you'd like -- but I'm pretty curious to see where I said that it would "literally delete people's characters". That is not what I said nor was it my point, and I'd really prefer it if you didn't put words in my mouth

 

Secondly, riddle me this: I outlined the fact that people HAVE spent billions of influence, bought, acquired, crafted or traded for a ton of IOs, and spent a long time unlocking their preferred Incarnate powers for a reason. This is real life HOURS of work. For many people it is, and I'm using the word in earnest here, LITERALLY tens to hundreds of hours in-game. Are you really trying to say that pointing out that needlessly nerfing people's builds after they put that much time and effort in it is 'sensational'?

 

Lastly: You're playing a game called City of Heroes. This game has freeform customization for superpowers and a fairly deep and robust costume system. One could infer from this that, in fact, people might be rolling their dream comic book characters and, in fact, might not be in support of having their vision of that changed because of some random, sweeping nerf. You two seem to have a VERY different idea of what 'sensationalism' is compared to what I am pretty sure it really means.

[Leogunner]

11 minutes ago, RunoKnows said:

First off: Quote any one of my posts -- heck, quote multiple posts if you'd like -- but I'm pretty curious to see where I said that it would "literally delete people's characters". That is not what I said nor was it my point, and I'd really prefer it if you didn't put words in my mouth

 

Secondly, riddle me this: I outlined the fact that people HAVE spent billions of influence, bought, acquired, crafted or traded for a ton of IOs, and spent a long time unlocking their preferred Incarnate powers for a reason. This is real life HOURS of work. For many people it is, and I'm using the word in earnest here, LITERALLY tens to hundreds of hours in-game. Are you really trying to say that pointing out that needlessly nerfing people's builds after they put that much time and effort in it is 'sensational'?

 

Lastly: You're playing a game called City of Heroes. This game has freeform customization for superpowers and a fairly deep and robust costume system. One could infer from this that, in fact, people might be rolling their dream comic book characters and, in fact, might not be in support of having their vision of that changed because of some random, sweeping nerf. You two seem to have a VERY different idea of what 'sensationalism' is compared to what I am pretty sure it really means.

 

Eh.  Delete, destroy, obliterate...same thing.  Yeah, putting words in people's mouths is the worst, almost as bad as assuming someone's intent.

 

And this is all the same old sensationalizing, dramatization...it's not worth arguing because your emotions are your own and only have worth to yourself.  And it doesn't seem you quite understand that no one has to care about them so arguing about it is moot.  Come back when you want to discuss actual balance, game mechanics and throw around ideas.  As is, they could introduce more varied enemies as challenging content but there will always be a limit to what can be accomplish with the binary defense system as it is.  Reigning it in, as a hypothetical, is mostly just a band-aid anyway.

[Voltak]

On 3/28/2021 at 11:08 AM, Tyrannical said:

 

That's one hell of a false attribution there, buddy.

 

That thread was about expanding the current notoriety options available to players, there was nothing sinister about it.

 

This thread imposes a strict change that nobody can opt out of, the two threads are nothing alike.

Buddy,
It looks like you did not understand what I was saying or the point I was making 

I do not support, I do not like at all that any player comes here to advocate or petition to the Devs that they get nerfed for getting the gear, the same gear that was designed to be a reward for playing and meeting challenges or otherwise

Gear that is functioning as designed 

It would make sense and it would be logical if we asked for bigger and better challenges as logically other games have done so, other games where gear is a reward for progress or work or whatever

What do other games do ?  

They increase the challenge 

Then your gear and your skills are put to the test even more 

Don't come here asking to nullify or nerf the gear

Spend your time and energy asking for challenges in the game to meet a new power level that was earned or achieved as was intended to do so 

I play many other games and gear is a pretty BIG DEAL in those games

Just go on to other challenges

As said above, there are some AE missions that your gear won't save you if you think you are just going to steam roll them only because your gear is top notch 

Not even incarnates will save you if you think you have all t4 and it is going to be cake walk 

If players can create such content, so can the devs, and all of that ---->. 

WITHOUT NERFING the stuff already earned and worked for 

Get it now ?  Get the point. ?

@Heraclea said or stated this point or very similar 

JUST LIKE ANY OTHER successful and fun game has done where gear is a big deal -->. 

When the player's progress and their gear has elevated on par or beyond the current challenge, you bring additional content to the game that will challenge players WITHOUT nerfing what they already earned or worked for .  

Stop begging for nerfs

 

Edited March 29, 2021 by Voltak

[Haijinx]

10 minutes ago, Voltak said:

Buddy,
It looks like you did not understand what I was saying or the point I was making 

I do not support, I do not like at all that any player comes here to advocate or petition to the Devs that they get nerfed for getting the gear, the same gear that was designed to be a reward for playing and meeting challenges or otherwise

Gear that is functioning as designed 

It would make sense and it would be logical if we asked for bigger and better challenges as logically other games have done so, other games where gear is a reward for progress or work or whatever

What do other games do ?  

They increase the challenge 

Then your gear and your skills are put to the test even more 

Don't come here asking to nullify or nerf the gear

Spend your time and energy asking for challenges in the game to meet a new power level that was earned or achieved as was intended to do so 

I play many other games and gear is a pretty BIG DEAL in those games

Just go on to other challenges

As said above, there are some AE missions that your gear won't save you if you think you are just going to steam roll them only because your gear is top notch 

Not even incarnates will save you if you think you have all t4 and it is going to be cake walk 

If players can create such content, so can the devs, and all of that ---->. 

WITHOUT NERFING the stuff already earned and worked for 

Get it now ?  Get the point. ?

@Heraclea said or stated this point or very similar 

JUST LIKE ANY OTHER successful and fun game has done where gear is a big deal -->. 

When the player's progress and their gear has elevated on par or beyond the current challenge, you bring additional content to the game that will challenge players WITHOUT nerfing what they already earned or worked for .  

Stop begging for nerfs

 

 

So do you advocate buffing enemy groups at higher levels to increase Challenge? 

 

[Voltak]

4 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

 

So do you advocate buffing enemy groups at higher levels to increase Challenge? 

 

Read my posts and see if you can catch something I already mentioned that would challenged any build relying solely on IOs/ or gear to steam roll through the content. 

Many players have already created lots of content on AE to challenge any build.  
WITHOUT making enemies higher levels 

If players can do that content, so can the Devs

Any other game that has gear be a part of the game has introduced foes more powerful, abilities that are more challenging for players to deal with 

They have done so without nerfing what is already present. 

 

Edited March 29, 2021 by Voltak

[Haijinx]

17 hours ago, RunoKnows said:

First off: Quote any one of my posts -- heck, quote multiple posts if you'd like -- but I'm pretty curious to see where I said that it would "literally delete people's characters". That is not what I said nor was it my point, and I'd really prefer it if you didn't put words in my mouth

 

 

You strongly imply RUIN.  Regardless of the words used.  Which is basically the same thing.

 

You even accused me of wanting to ruin people's characters.  Even though I didn't actually support this proposal.  

 

Instead I sympathized with the OP's intent and motivations.  

[Haijinx]

1 minute ago, Voltak said:

Read my posts and see if you can catch something I already mentioned that would challenged any build relying solely on IOs/ or gear to steam roll through the content. 

Many players have already created lots of content on AE to challenge any build.  
WITHOUT making enemies higher levels 

If players can do that content, so can the Devs

Any other game that has gear be a part of the game has introduced foes more powerful, abilities that are more challenging for players to deal with 

They have done so without nerfing what is already present. 

 

 

That is one of the identified issues.  That Power Creep has been almost entirely one sided in players favor.  Largely in the form of IOs ("Gear") and Incarnate abilities.

 

While the result of buffing enemies or nerfing players is largely the same.  Buffing enemies does tend to be more popular, since people become attached to their characters and builds. 

 

However most games do not simply place the correspondingly buffed enemies in Optional Missions hidden away from everyone else while allowing the Buffed Players to run rampant through all content.    

  

[Voltak]

5 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

 

That is one of the identified issues.  That Power Creep has been almost entirely one sided in players favor.  Largely in the form of IOs ("Gear") and Incarnate abilities.

 

While the result of buffing enemies or nerfing players is largely the same.  Buffing enemies does tend to be more popular, since people become attached to their characters and builds. 

 

However most games do not simply place the correspondingly buffed enemies in Optional Missions hidden away from everyone else while allowing the Buffed Players to run rampant through all content.    

  

Which is why for the mean time we have SGs running content in AE , very difficult content, to have fun and meet new challenges

And, it is also another reason why we should advocate and ask for more difficult content 

Right now you can make content more challenging without increasing the levels of the critters. 

I have many examples and I won't bore you with the list but about 3-4 days ago we ran a team from the network of players and we did some AE content that required very good support, buffs that are way beyond and over what IOs give you in order to do well, and you have to be tactically proficient too 

Players can do this 

If we can do this, so can the Devs 

I agree that it is time now to add more challenging content and you can do so now without increasing level caps for players or for the monsters or critters 

I do want to see less people asking for nerfs for the gear or builds 

More content is better and more fun and rewarding

Edited March 29, 2021 by Voltak

[Haijinx]

16 hours ago, Leogunner said:

 

Eh.  Delete, destroy, obliterate...same thing.  Yeah, putting words in people's mouths is the worst, almost as bad as assuming someone's intent.

 

And this is all the same old sensationalizing, dramatization...it's not worth arguing because your emotions are your own and only have worth to yourself.  And it doesn't seem you quite understand that no one has to care about them so arguing about it is moot.  Come back when you want to discuss actual balance, game mechanics and throw around ideas.  As is, they could introduce more varied enemies as challenging content but there will always be a limit to what can be accomplish with the binary defense system as it is.  Reigning it in, as a hypothetical, is mostly just a band-aid anyway.

 

I'm fully onto the band-aids are useless stage of all this. 

 

I think that the Game Mechanics would need to be completely redesigned to actually accommodate all the added Power (Sets, IOs, Incarnates, Side Switching, ATs) that has been added since launch and still provide a balanced, internally consistent system.   

 

I don't think that's ever going to happen here.  But I think that's a big reason why sequel games usually do not keep the same Game System as the previous incarnation. 

[Voltak]

1 minute ago, Haijinx said:

 

I'm fully onto the band-aids are useless stage of all this. 

 

I think that the Game Mechanics would need to be completely redesigned to actually accommodate all the added Power (Sets, IOs, Incarnates, Side Switching, ATs) that has been added since launch and still provide a balanced, internally consistent system.   

 

I don't think that's ever going to happen here.  But I think that's a big reason why sequel games usually do not keep the same Game System as the previous incarnation. 

Players right now can create content in AE that can make very real and significant challenges to any build or any player that thinks his gear will allow him or her to steam roll through the mission 

They going to lear real quick that Mids Reborn and all those shiny IO sets  won't save their hide at all 

If players can do this without changing anything in the code or changing the system , so can the Devs 

It's better to ask for new challenges 



 

[Haijinx]

22 minutes ago, Voltak said:

Players right now can create content in AE that can make very real and significant challenges to any build or any player that thinks his gear will allow him or her to steam roll through the mission 

They going to lear real quick that Mids Reborn and all those shiny IO sets  won't save their hide at all 

If players can do this without changing anything in the code or changing the system , so can the Devs 

It's better to ask for new challenges 



 

 

There is a difference between making content that can hammer any build or team and an internally consistent game system.  You are discussing the former.  

 

COH barely had the latter when it was just SO's with GDN and ED.   But even on SOs you can abuse that system with Support of a myriad of types (even just leadership spam, if there's enough of it.) 

 

Works both ways.  There is a difference between making a Build that can totally smash any normal content, and that build really fitting into the game system.  Back on live economics kept the really extreme IO builds in check to an extent.  At least for a while.   And the more extreme sets like TW were behind a paywall and weren't around all that long anyway.  

Edited March 29, 2021 by Haijinx

[srmalloy]

18 hours ago, Leogunner said:

Sure.  But if you're going to make that analogy, why not look at the intent as well?

There is nothing quite so terrifying as someone convinced that they're entitled to impose their morality on you "for your own good".

[Haijinx]

On 3/28/2021 at 10:09 AM, Andreah said:

There are a lot of problems with CoH's system. But it works.

 

That alone does encourage the HC developers to be very deliberate, cautious, and minimalist with changes to the core mechanics.

 

 

 

I don't think the first part of this statement is actually true.  The game works.  As in you can play, its not very buggy.  The animations are nice.  The effects are nice.  It looks good for its age.  The Teaming mechanics are good.  The game can be fun if easy.  And so on.  But the system?  Ehh.  Not really.   Its definitely broken.   A lot of people like it as it is though.  So I get the reluctance to change anything.  

 

The second part of your statement.  That the HC developers are taking a cautious approach, I agree with.  And its hard to fault them for it considering everything.   Look what happened when they decided to perhaps reign in Rune of Protection.   Or try to do something about Rage.   Sometimes I wonder if the community is its own worst enemy.  

 

 

 

[PeregrineFalcon]

47 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Its definitely broken.

Can you please explain what you mean by broken? This is a serious question.

 

Because from where I'm sitting it works. Maybe not as well as it could, but it works. Broken means "does not function." So please explain exactly how it's broken.

[Haijinx]

24 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Can you please explain what you mean by broken? This is a serious question.

 

Because from where I'm sitting it works. Maybe not as well as it could, but it works. Broken means "does not function." So please explain exactly how it's broken.

As an example, look at the way the system determines if you hit your target and are hit in return.

 

Your typical softcapped, handful of purples IO build spends the entire mission with only a %5 chance to even be hit.  We're not talking about the spiderdude super reflexes guy, we're talking about everybody.

 

At the same time they have a 95% chance to hit everything.  In the whole mission. We're not talking about the Eagle Eye sniper guy, we're talking about everybody.

 

That's broken in three ways.  First from a game perspective.  The system is based on random chance.  But there's not a whole lot of Random going on anymore.  You are riding one of the systems mechanical rails, all the time.

 

Second, its broken because it washes all the heroes out.  Spiderdude isn't any better at dodging attacks  than Hulking Brickwall guy.  Sniper guy's improbable aiming skills aren't any better than Rubberband Girl's. 

 

Third it Trivializes the villains.  Even the skilled baddies can't seem to avoid any attacks and can't seem to hit anything.  The Council Goons are basically Keystone Fascists.  How are they even a threat to Paragon City at all?

 

That's not the only place it happens, but its one we see the most often probably.  Especially since you don't even need IOs to get there.  Leadership stacks, and stacks at full strength.  So its pretty common as long as the team doesn't spread out much. 

 

[PeregrineFalcon]

1 minute ago, Haijinx said:

That's broken in three ways.  First from a game perspective.

From A game perspective yes. From this game's perspective no.

 

Look, this is a super hero game. We hit the bad guys 95% of the time because the player base spent years flooding the forums with comments on how much they hate missing all of the time. In fact, most of the game isn't really a challenge because that's how the majority of the players want it.

 

This is a super hero game. And the player base made sure everyone knew, right from the start, that they wanted to play SUPER heroes. Not lame heroes that struggle with 3 Hellions, but super duper heroes that lay the smack down on 10 or 12 Hellions all at once.

 

What this game needs is not a complete system rewrite, not a huge across the board character nerf, no. What this game needs is Battalion, or some other incarnate level enemy, to be out in force so that incarnates, either solo or in teams, can fight challenging enemies so that those of us here on the forums don't have to wade through 3,000 different variants of "please nerf us, we're too super duper" every single day. It's starting to get old.

 

If you want a character that's weak and ineffectual, go play a different game.