Help me understand how to make a "Proc Monster"

[Habanada]

Awesome forum.  On my 7th Sentinel.  I play for fun and it sounds like great fun to play a procced out Sentinel, specifically a Fire/Bio/Psi.

 

How do you know when, how, where to use procs?  
How do you decide when to sacrifice set bonuses for a proc?
When are procs detrimental?

 

I don't need a build; I'm just wanting to understand.  Thanks

[Bionic_Flea]

This is the thread that "started" the rage.  I put "started" in quotes because people have been using procs for ages, but Sir Myskin certainly started a revival and grew the trend. 

 

[Sir Myshkin]

What Flea linked to is one of the many portals that can help shed some light on the ideals of what it means to create a “Proc Monster” and to focus on that proc mentality. The defender edition will have a lot of the relevant info about blast sets as they’d pertain to a Sentinel, I’d suggest swinging a look at the Tanker edition to see how Melee plays out with Armors too, and also point you towards some “Mad Kings” if you want to take Sentinels on an extreme proc ride. All of those links are in my signature, or easily searchable.

[Underfyre]

Fire as a primary doesn't really excel with procs since it doesn't really have a secondary effect.

[MTeague]

You also need to be able to pass the mental hurdle of "but if I frankenproc, that's a power with IO's from four different sets!  the set bonuses! won't someone think of the poor abandoned set bonuses!".   That's the hurdle I'm still stuck on.  I can proc out a couple powers per character (ie, Infrigidate on a /Cold), but I start to agonize over lost set bonuses if I go too wild. 

[Bionic_Flea]

For me, it's mainly the low damage, single target ranged holds that are perfect for multiple procs.  Second to that would be the low to no damage big AoE Holds.  Both can take multiple procs including PvP and Purples, which tend to be better.  I can also get proc crazy in caltrops since you can fill it with procs.  It doesn't need accuracy and the small DoTs aren't worth spending damage slots on.

 

But after that, there are numerous powers that you can four or 5 slot a set with a proc and then add an extra proc at then end. 

 

But yeah, it's a balance between procs and all the other goodies one wants in a build: enough accuracy to hit consistently, endurance to continue fighting, and all the defense, resist, and recharge money can buy!

[Hjarki]

Fire/Bio/Psi isn't particularly amenable to being a 'proc monster':

• Fire has no secondary effects, which means that the only procs you can it in the single target powers are Gladiator's Javelin and (for one of them), Apocalypse. Ranged AT can take Bombardment and Positron's Blast while PBAoE can take Armageddon, Obliteration, Eradication and Scirocco's Dervish. However, Rains don't work particularly well with procs. Fire also lacks any knockback effects, denying you the excellent Force Feedback.
• Bio is actually quite effective for a 'proc monster'... on any other AT. On a Sentinel, you lose all of the offensive powers that could potentially slot great set bonuses without compromising their effectiveness. Sentinels also lack the primaries that can help solve Bio's S/L and DDR issues.
• Psi is often considered the 'best' Sentinel epic pool, but this deserves an asterisk when you're talking about maximizing dps via procs. Psi has both the attacks you need for a good rotation: a Hold and a melee attack. Both are solid attacks. Unfortunately they're also tremendously long recharge attacks. To actually fit them in a 3-power rotation on perma-Hasten build, you'd need to find a ranged attack with a 4 sec activation and 5 sec recharge to interleave between them. As a result, you need to have a more comprehensive rotation in primary to accommodate those long recharge attacks - which either means slotting them for recharge (reducing the slots you have for procs while not improving the proc component of your dps much) or minimizing their effect on your attack cycle.

The general principle is you want to select an offensive set that can take all the procs you want (i.e. not Fire) and then a support/armor set that can provide all the accuracy, recharge, endurance management and defense you won't be getting from IO sets in primary.

 

If you want an exercise for the reader, try Dual Pistols/Super Reflexes/Fire Mastery structured around a Suppressive Fire -> Executioner's Shot -> Cremate rotation. It's about as close to 'perfect' as a proc monster gets - a Hold, a melee attack and a 4-proc ranged attack all in the 8 - 12 sec recharge range coupled with an armor set that provides recharge, endurance management and soft-cap defenses without too much trouble. As a bonus, it even has KB AE for Force Feedback. You should be able to get ~30% more ST dps than a Fire/Bio/Psi can achieve (without external buffs).

 

 

Edited April 14, 2021 by Hjarki

[Pzn]

54 minutes ago, Hjarki said:

To actually fit them in a 3-power rotation on perma-Hasten build, you'd need to find a ranged attack with a 4 sec activation and 5 sec recharge to interleave between them.

I wouldn't run a 3 power attack chain with proc'd out psi epic.  My chain is normally 4-5 attacks on sentinel proc builds with psi epic.  Blaze>Blazing Blast>Flares>Mind Probe>Dominate would probably work out correctly.  You can get away with slotting a bit of recharge in mind probe too before you start to reduce to proc chance.

[Hjarki]

9 minutes ago, Pzn said:

I wouldn't run a 3 power attack chain with proc'd out psi epic.  My chain is normally 4-5 attacks on sentinel proc builds with psi epic.  Blaze>Blazing Blast>Flares>Mind Probe>Dominate would probably work out correctly.  You can get away with slotting a bit of recharge in mind probe too before you start to reduce to proc chance.

Let's assume it does. You have:

Flares: 1 standard proc

Blaze: 1 standard proc

Blazing Bolt: 1 standard proc, Apocalypse

Mind Probe: 1 standard proc, Hecatomb

Dominate: 3 standard procs, Unbreakable Constraint

 

The entire cycle is:

 

base_damage = (35.9242 + 15.8489) * (1 + 1.25) + ...
    (103.5462 + sum([0.8 0.8^2 0.8^3 0.8^4 0.8^5]) * 11.867) * (1 + 1.25) + ...
    (5.1615 * 13 + 48.1807) * (1 + 1.25) + ...
    (103.5462) * (1 + 1.25) + ...
    (52.8297) * (1 + 1.25)
proc_damage = (2 + 0.833) * 3.5 / 60 * 71.75 + ...
    (10 + 1) * 3.5 / 60 * 71.75 + ...
    min(0.9,(12 + 1.667) * 4.5 / 60) * 107.1 + ...
    min(0.9,(12 + 1.667) * 3.5 / 60) * 71.75 + ...
    min(0.9,(20/1.9 + 1.167) * 4.5 / 60) * 107.1 + ...
    min(0.9,(20/1.9 + 1.167) * 3.5 / 60) * 71.75 + ...
    min(0.9,(16 + 1.167) * 4.5 / 60) * 107.1 + ...
    min(0.9,(16 + 1.167) * 3.5 / 60) * 71.75
cycle_time = 1 + 1.188 + 1.848 + 1.32 + 1.32
(base_damage + proc_damage) / cycle_time

 

This yields 231.85 dps. For comparison, the Suppressive Fire -> Executioner's Shot -> Cremate cycle I mentioned above is somewhere in the vicinity of 300 dps.

[Hjarki]

10 minutes ago, Pzn said:

That's not even how you would slot them on a proc build.  you don't know what you're talking about

In retrospect, I'd move Apocalypse to Blaze to avoid capping the proc chance. It doesn't meaningfully change the overall dps, though. Adding another proc to Dominate (and fixing a math error above) would raise the dps to 256. Still not very competitive.

 

What slotting would you prefer?

Edited April 14, 2021 by Hjarki

[Underfyre]

It's almost like I made a DPS spreadsheet to do this math quickly and show people how DP/SR/Fire is never going to approach 300dps. Nobody plays at +0 that has a build like you're describing.

[Hjarki]

2 hours ago, underfyre said:

It's almost like I made a DPS spreadsheet to do this math quickly and show people how DP/SR/Fire is never going to approach 300dps. Nobody plays at +0 that has a build like you're describing.

I presented the math to demonstrate the principles involved - 'proc monster' builds require powers that can actually slot procs and benefit greatly from balanced rotations with similar powers. I understand you're proud of your spreadsheet, but it's a lot easier for people to just use Mid's.

 

In terms of "plays at +0", I'm not sure why it would matter. We're only concerned with comparing values, so the across-the-board purple patch scaling isn't relevant.

Edited April 14, 2021 by Hjarki

[HoundsTooth]

The posts so far are well intentioned, but seem too technical for a beginner. I turned my Water/SR into a proc build, and I had a hard time learning the basics. All the guides and advice were so technical and detailed that I had a hard time grasping the main idea. Forum post were full of math for optimizing proc builds, but I didn’t understand how to make any proc build let alone optimize one.

 

A proc build is simple: throw as many procs into your damage powers as possible. Usually, this means you’ll sacrifice set bonuses because you’ll slot damage procs instead of filling out sets to 5 or 6 slots for good bonuses. 
 

The chance for a power to proc is decreased by slotting recharge enhancements. The chance to proc is unaffected by global recharge and Hasten. So you’ll want to get enough global recharge into your build to have an smooth attack chain without enhancing recharge in the individual powers.

 

You’ll want to choose a secondary that is sturdy without too many +def IO bonuses. You won’t be able to chase defense bonuses because you’ll need the bonuses for recharge more. (That's why people use Defenders and Tankers as proc monsters. They get high base +def on their toggles) SR is a good choice because you can softcap with minimal defensive bonuses. You’ll want to choose a primary that has a lot of secondary effects so you can slot procs from a variety of IO sets. Water is good because you can get procs from slow, heal, stun, and defense rebuff sets.

Edited April 16, 2021 by HoundsTooth
grammar and formatting

[Pzn]

That's a great explanation of proc builds HoundTooth.  I'd like to add onto that.  Sets that provide tohit buffs are also great for proc builds since you don't want to waste slots on accuracy.  And don't forget to still slot regular damage if it's a power with good base damage.  You can often fit both.

 

Edited April 15, 2021 by Pzn

[Mack008]

One thing to keep in mind is that just because a power can take a proc doesn't mean it should.

 

For example, DP's Piercing Rounds has a 47% chance of a typical 3.5 PPM Proc going off.  And a typical damage proc would give 71.75 damage.  So the expected damage increase, on average, is 33.1 ( 0.47 * 71.75 ).  However, slotting a normal damage SO would increase the damage by 40.3.  For this power, don't worry about adding procs until after the power's damage has been increased by normal SOs / IOs.

 

On the flip is is a power like DP Hail of Bullets, where a 3.5 PPM proc gives more damage than a SO / IO.  

 

In general, a power is a good candidate for a proc if:

1) It has a long recharge time.  The longer the time, the more likely the proc will go off (up to the 90% limit).

2) It has a low base damage.  The lower the damage, the more likely the proc will give a stronger boost than a simple SO / IO.

Edited April 28, 2021 by Mack008