New Nova damage numbers?

[Nemeroff]

Before the latest update my Peacebringer's Bright Nova damage numbers matched the numbers on websites and the latest version of Mids.

Bright Nova Bolt: Minor Damage;

Bright Nova Blast: High Damage;

Bright Nova Scatter: Moderate Damage;

Bright Nova Detonation; Moderate Damage;

 

I know I used to finish off a target with just a hair of health left with the Bright Nova Blast. Just to annihilate him.

 

But after the update:

Bright Nova Bolt:  unchanged

Bright Nova Blast:  LIGHT Damage

Bright Nova Scatter:  LIGHT Damage

Bright Nova Detonation;  LIGHT Damage

 

Is it just my Settings, my screen, my character/build?

 

Help?

If this is the new way, I don't think I like Peacebringers anymore.

 

Website:

 

*EDIT:  please the excuse the crudity of these images. I didn't have time to paint it or build it to scale.

Edited April 25, 2021 by Nemeroff

[Bopper]

5 minutes ago, Nemeroff said:

Before the latest update my Peacebringer's Bright Nova damage numbers matched the numbers on websites and the latest version of Mids.

Bright Nova Bolt: Minor Damage;

Bright Nova Blast: High Damage;

Bright Nova Scatter: Moderate Damage;

Bright Nova Detonation; Moderate Damage;

 

I know I used to finish off a target with just a hair of health left with the Bright Nova Blast. Just to annihilate him.

 

But after the update:

Bright Nova Bolt:  unchanged

Bright Nova Blast:  LIGHT Damage

Bright Nova Scatter:  LIGHT Damage

Bright Nova Detonation;  LIGHT Damage

 

Is it just my Settings, my screen, my character/build?

 

Help?

If this is the new way, I don't think I like Peacebringers anymore.

 

Website:

 

*EDIT:  please the excuse the crudity of these images. I didn't have time to paint it or build it to scale.

I don't think the damage changed, just the descriptions of the attacks. All of those attacks have a 1.0 or less damage scale which is why it's described as Light. However the damage modifier for Nova form is significant and your damage should still be good and unchanged.

[Nemeroff]

Yeah, I kept thinking if they changed the Nova damage(s) they would've changed all 4 not just 3 of 4; maybe. And if they changed the damages at all they would've mentioned it in the Announcement page.

 

Thanks for the clarification Bopper 🙂

[dtj714]

On 4/25/2021 at 7:50 PM, Bopper said:

I don't think the damage changed, just the descriptions of the attacks. All of those attacks have a 1.0 or less damage scale which is why it's described as Light. However the damage modifier for Nova form is significant and your damage should still be good and unchanged.

But Nova damage scale is (supposed to be) 1.2. I got into a discussion about this with someone when bringing up the Ebon Eye “tooltip discrepancy”, which resulted in a big brouhaha when someone changed the Nova scale on the wiki without anything to back it up (at least I think that was how it got started). 
 

That said, I’m still confused about the relationship between “base damage”, damage scale, and “damage modifier”. In any event, the descriptions where what they were for 17 years, idk why they would change them now (more “fixing what ain’t broke” and causing confusion, as illustrated by this post), assuming the damage is still the same. 

Edited April 28, 2021 by dtj714

[Bopper]

16 minutes ago, dtj714 said:

But Nova damage scale is (supposed to be) 1.2. I got into a discussion about this with someone when bringing up the Ebon Eye “tooltip discrepancy”, which resulted in a big brouhaha when someone changed the Nova scale on the wiki without anything to back it up (at least I think that was how it got started). 
 

That said, I’m still confused about the relationship between “base damage”, damage scale, and “damage modifier”. In any event, the descriptions where what they were for 17 years, idk why they would change them now (more “fixing what ain’t broke” and causing confusion, as illustrated by this post), assuming the damage is still the same. 

Bright Nova Blast is a 4s recharge power. Design formula would suggest the damage scale to be 0.2 x (4 x 0.8 + 1.8) = 1.0

 

Base Damage = Damage Scale x Damage Modifier.

 

For a PB in Nova form, the modifier is 66.7323. So the base damage for Bright Nova Blast would be 1.0 x 66.7323 = 66.7323.

 

As for the fixing what isn't broke, it actually was broke. There were a lot of powers that had wrong descriptions or were inconsistent. 

[Arbegla]

10 minutes ago, Bopper said:

Bright Nova Blast is a 4s recharge power. Design formula would suggest the damage scale to be 0.2 x (4 x 0.8 + 1.8) = 1.0

 

Base Damage = Damage Scale x Damage Modifier.

 

For a PB in Nova form, the modifier is 66.7323. So the base damage for Bright Nova Blast would be 1.0 x 66.7323 = 66.7323.

 

As for the fixing what isn't broke, it actually was broke. There were a lot of powers that had wrong descriptions or were inconsistent. 

 

So.. is this wrong then? https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Damage#Damage_Scale

 

it says that Nova form has a 1.2 range damage scale (but that attack itself has a 1.0 damage scale) so would it be something like this?

 

(Power Damage Scale * AT Damage Scale) * Damage modifier? or...?

[Bopper]

1 minute ago, Arbegla said:

 

So.. is this wrong then? https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Damage#Damage_Scale

 

it says that Nova form has a 1.2 range damage scale (but that attack itself has a 1.0 damage scale) so would it be something like this?

 

(Power Damage Scale * AT Damage Scale) * Damage modifier? or...?

That scale is baked into the Damage Modifer.

 

The base 1.0 Damage Modifier is 55.6102. Multiply that by 1.2 and you get 66.7323.

 

 

[Arbegla]

5 minutes ago, Bopper said:

That scale is baked into the Damage Modifer.

 

The base 1.0 Damage Modifier is 55.6102. Multiply that by 1.2 and you get 66.7323.

 

 

 

Ah, so its really something like this math:

 

Power damage scale [1.0] x (Base Damage [55.6102] * AT damage scale [1.2]) right?

 

Is the 55.6102 documented somewhere?

[Bopper]

Just now, Arbegla said:

 

Ah, so its really something like this math:

 

Power damage scale [1.0] x (Base Damage [55.6102] * AT damage scale [1.2]) right?

 

Is the 55.6102 documented somewhere?

That's a great way to look at it. I dont know if it's documented anywhere officially, but if you look up Blaster Melee (1.0) you'll see that 55.6102 is used. How they come up with that number is a bit of a challenge as it's many things baked I to eachother. I can try to find a spreadsheet that explains it, though.

[Bopper]

I have this saved on my machine, but unfortunately I can't remember where I got it from so I can't properly attribute this work to the right person. Nonetheless, here's the mechanics in play

COH Mechanics.xlsx

[dtj714]

1 hour ago, Bopper said:

Bright Nova Blast is a 4s recharge power. Design formula would suggest the damage scale to be 0.2 x (4 x 0.8 + 1.8) = 1.0

 

Base Damage = Damage Scale x Damage Modifier.

 

For a PB in Nova form, the modifier is 66.7323. So the base damage for Bright Nova Blast would be 1.0 x 66.7323 = 66.7323.

 

As for the fixing what isn't broke, it actually was broke. There were a lot of powers that had wrong descriptions or were inconsistent. 

So you’re saying the damage “categories” should reflect what the damage is without the inclusion of any inherent modifiers, while the damage value in the tooltip does?  So now we have actual Nova powers where the numbers and descriptions don’t match up, and a non-Nova power (Ebon/Glinting Eye) that always shows the Nova value, even if you don’t have the form. Yeah, I guess that’s consistent. 

[Bopper]

6 minutes ago, dtj714 said:

So you’re saying the damage “categories” should

At no point did I give an opinion on how something should be done. I'm just explaining how it works.

[dtj714]

1 minute ago, Bopper said:

At no point did I give an opinion on how something should be done. I'm just explaining how it works.

I’m not trying to pick a fight (clearly you’d win 😀) but earlier you said the description was broken. Was that not an opinion on what was done?  In any event, please tell me your express opinion on a tooltip using a damage description that does not include an inherent modifier, but a damage value that does. Because that is the result, isn’t it?  

[Flask]

HitPoints_Primalist
MIN	104.00	115.14
MAX	162.00	179.67
HitPoints_Devoured
MIN	126.00	140.67
MAX	195.00	217.96
HitPoints_Clockwork
MIN	99.00	109.34
MAX	174.00	193.60

 

I didn't see much beyond these additional archetypes..

[Bopper]

4 minutes ago, dtj714 said:

I’m not trying to pick a fight (clearly you’d win 😀) but earlier you said the description was broken. Was that not an opinion on what was done?  In any event, please tell me your express opinion on a tooltip using a damage description that does not include an inherent modifier, but a damage value that does. Because that is the result, isn’t it?  

I see what you mean. I can only speak to my experience of having to copy the descriptions from the game into Mids and seeing inconsistencies. Like a sniper (or was it a nuke?) being called superior damage and another attack doing the same damage being called extreme damage. That's what I meant by broken, where whatever rules that were supposed to be followed were not being followed.

 

As for the descriptions, it might be worth incorporating the AT modifer into it. But that should be made into a formal suggestion. For now, I'm fine with it being power scale only just so that it's consistent across ATs. So a Light attack from a defender's fire blast power will still be called a light attack on the Blaster version. 

[Bopper]

9 minutes ago, Flask said:

HitPoints_Primalist
MIN	104.00	115.14
MAX	162.00	179.67
HitPoints_Devoured
MIN	126.00	140.67
MAX	195.00	217.96
HitPoints_Clockwork
MIN	99.00	109.34
MAX	174.00	193.60

 

I didn't see much beyond these additional archetypes..

I dont know what server the guy who made the spreadsheet was using, but it's possible there were ATs being developed and got abandoned

[dtj714]

12 minutes ago, Bopper said:

I see what you mean. I can only speak to my experience of having to copy the descriptions from the game into Mids and seeing inconsistencies. Like a sniper (or was it a nuke?) being called superior damage and another attack doing the same damage being called extreme damage. That's what I meant by broken, where whatever rules that were supposed to be followed were not being followed.

 

As for the descriptions, it might be worth incorporating the AT modifer into it. But that should be made into a formal suggestion. For now, I'm fine with it being power scale only just so that it's consistent across ATs. So a Light attack from a defender's fire blast power will still be called a light attack on the Blaster version. 

I suspect that’s exactly the way it was (incorporating the AT mod) because khelds have the unique qualities of having multiple scales/modifiers, and their sets are exclusive to them. No Defender or Blaster with different scales/mods can have those powers - they are what they are with a kheld and that’s it.

 

Anyway, I’m just a traditionalist and don’t care for the fact that the devs keep toying with things that existed in the live game (some adjustments and tweaks are understandable, sure) instead of focusing on new stuff like Echo Island (now that’s cool!) or a new earth power set.  Add stuff and let people enjoy it if they want. But don’t keep chipping away at the game that this whole thing is based on. 

[chi1701]

Info i have is from page 5, but since there has been no damage update, should still be accurate for keldians (PB)

CoH_Homecoming_of_Data_Page5_20200928.xlsx