Please revert the Rage change.

[kelly Rocket]

SS/Fire was only every especially awesomly good in very tailored farmable maps and specific AE content. In most normal gameplay it was decent, not amazing. That's exactly why the real devs never did anything about the Rage crash. Again I think this change was really just a solution in search of a problem.

Uh... the "real devs" did do something about it. The Rage crash fix went in well before the game sunset. It's not something that was added after the shutdown like the new Blaster secondaries and such.

 

Still doesn't mean they were correct to do so of course.

[Ashgan]

I can see both sides of the argument but as I have not gotten my SS character to the point of using rage I can only speculate

My 2 cents I do feel I can throw in here is no not all powersets can or should go together (example courtesy of a friend of mine Stone/Axe, flinging opponents away while extra slow does not make great synergy)

[Burnt Toast]

The -Defense was never on live - that was an Issue 25 change. The game closed... before Issue 24 was Live.

 

 

SS/Fire was only every especially awesomly good in very tailored farmable maps and specific AE content. In most normal gameplay it was decent, not amazing. That's exactly why the real devs never did anything about the Rage crash. Again I think this change was really just a solution in search of a problem.

Uh... the "real devs" did do something about it. The Rage crash fix went in well before the game sunset. It's not something that was added after the shutdown like the new Blaster secondaries and such.

 

Still doesn't mean they were correct to do so of course.

[csr]

The -Defense was never on live - that was an Issue 25 change. The game closed... before Issue 24 was Live.

 

Actually.. it was.  It was only when you refreshed Rage before it expired that you could avoid the -Def.

[JusticeEagle]

The -Defense was never on live - that was an Issue 25 change. The game closed... before Issue 24 was Live.

 

Actually.. it was.  It was only when you refreshed Rage before it expired that you could avoid the -Def.

 

I think he meant the unavoidable def crash was never on live. And to be fair, Rage was made to be easily perm-able, and the Dmg and End crashes were changed to be unavoidable while the def crash specifically was not.

[Chaos String]

When I discovered that the -def was now unavoidable, I resolved to put my head down, power through to 50, and see how it worked out.

 

I stopped playing the SS/SD brute at 42 and rerolled the character as StJ/SD.  Sure, I tried carrying trays of purples to mitigate the -def.  Ultimately I decided to play a primary that doesn't try to kill me, and carry trays full of reds instead.

[Neogumbercules]

When I discovered that the -def was now unavoidable, I resolved to put my head down, power through to 50, and see how it worked out.

 

I stopped playing the SS/SD brute at 42 and rerolled the character as StJ/SD.  Sure, I tried carrying trays of purples to mitigate the -def.  Ultimately I decided to play a primary that doesn't try to kill me, and carry trays full of reds instead.

 

This right here. These changes were made by people who would literally have tens of thousands of posts about the deep game mechanics and behinds the scenes mathematics, and would argue about it all for months and months on the official forums. I'm not disparaging their contributions to the game overall, it was great, but this Rage change is exactly the kind of balancing that you'd get out of people that derive every decision based on all of that math and yet totally wreck an entire powerset because they made the actual gameplay way worse. Maybe even with this defense crash SS is still great on paper, but they've killed the basic playability of the set.

[Chronocrator]

What happened to Unrelenting from the Presence pool preventing crashes? I guess the concept was just abandoned at some point?

[Sniktch]

They don't want to 'waste' powers on doing exactly what they're asking for - not 'perfectly optimal'.  I haven't taken Unrelenting - I could but I haven't, because I haven't needed to.  I can mitigate the crash a bunch of other ways, whether it's by having a purple or two or by...oh, I dunno....PAYING ATTENTION to my powers, and being perfectly willing to wait 15 seconds every now and then.

[Burnt Toast]

Yes that is what I meant. There was many discussions about this on the beta forums and it was decided by the Devs that the -Defense SHOULD be avoidable and it was changed to reflect that before going Live. I beta tested from Issue 6 all the way through 24. The -Defense was seen as too penalizing; especially on a non-tier 9 power. As for the condescending comments of "carrying purples" "pay attention" etc... way to talk down to people and heavily insinuate they are bad players because their defense is cut to shreds. The total number of friends who have now abandoned Homecoming for other servers just because of this change is now up to 4... doesn't seem like a lot I know, but it is a lot of friends for me to lose over a nerf that was never intended to be placed on Live after a lot of beta feedback and original developer decisions.

 

Makes me wonder what the next nerf will be... hope it's not your favorite powerset.

 

The -Defense was never on live - that was an Issue 25 change. The game closed... before Issue 24 was Live.

 

Actually.. it was.  It was only when you refreshed Rage before it expired that you could avoid the -Def.

 

I think he meant the unavoidable def crash was never on live. And to be fair, Rage was made to be easily perm-able, and the Dmg and End crashes were changed to be unavoidable while the def crash specifically was not.

[AGrinningCat]

Just popping in to say that the unavoidable -def crash is the only reason I haven't restarted my SS/WP brute from live.

[Thrythlind]

I seem to remember that this was in live. Because for my SS/WP, I made sure to carry a healthy supply of Lucks so I could pop one at the end of a Rage duration.

[JusticeEagle]

I seem to remember that this was in live. Because for my SS/WP, I made sure to carry a healthy supply of Lucks so I could pop one at the end of a Rage duration.

 

No, as has been said on this thread many times, this was never on live. It was in test for a short time, but was purposely never implemented. When Castle made the Dmg and End crashes unavoidable, he purposely left in the ability to bypass the Def crash. And there is no reason to have to be able to use two purps every two minutes (as you can only buy the small ones, so they are the only ones you can be certain to have reliably) just to run the powerset as it is supposed to be run. Even with Perma-rage able to be used, which it can't right now since in high-level content that kind of def crash can be insta-death, SS is still a middle of the road set. Without it, it is completely broken. There is no good reason not to fix this.

[nihilii]

I played a SS/DA to 50 on Torchbearer and actually forgot there was an unavoidable defense debuff now. It's worth remembering SS got a survivability buff in the form of KB->KD IOs, turning Hand Clap into (Stone Melee's) Fault.

 

That's not to tell people bummed about the nerf they got it wrong. Defense sets get penalized much more. There's a fair argument in that the damage debuff was already unavoidable, and hit everyone equally.

 

But, if we're honest for a moment... We all know SS is broken. +32% to +64% ToHit, perma, +80% to +160% damage, perma. A fast recharge, high damage 15 feet PBAoE with knockdown - more than twice the area of other melee PBAoEs!

 

SS was always a monstrosity bending the rules of the game - or more accurately, designed when there were no hard rules. The right builds ended up top contenders for both AoE and ST DPS, survivability on par with actual middle of the road sets, and never suffering from tohit debuffs or mob defense debuffs.

 

(Edit: and because I know it's coming, the "game is balanced around SOs" applies less than ever here. Perma-Rage is PARTICULARLY overpowered in the SO world, where you get to hit +2s and +3s with ease as soon as lvl 18 while everyone else whiffs helplessly; where you can easily choose to trade some of your damage and accuracy SOs for extra recharge and end reduction, while everyone else must stick at least 1 ACC/3 DAM as a baseline.)

 

It's going to be tough to argue for a return to Live values on the basis of "balance". Hyperbole statements claiming SS is subpar take away from the argument more than anything.

 

But it's easy to argue the nerf makes it UNFUN, and if SS needs to be balanced, then to remove the nerf until more suitable ideas come up.

[FUBARczar]

Some sort of Toggle seems like a very legit option.

 

Another may be to make Rage into something akin to Soul Drain.

[JusticeEagle]

I played a SS/DA to 50 on Torchbearer and actually forgot there was an unavoidable defense debuff now. It's worth remembering SS got a survivability buff in the form of KB->KD IOs, turning Hand Clap into (Stone Melee's) Fault.

 

That's not to tell people bummed about the nerf they got it wrong. Defense sets get penalized much more. There's a fair argument in that the damage debuff was already unavoidable, and hit everyone equally.

 

But, if we're honest for a moment... We all know SS is broken. +32% to +64% ToHit, perma, +80% to +160% damage, perma. A fast recharge, high damage 15 feet PBAoE with knockdown - more than twice the area of other melee PBAoEs!

 

SS was always a monstrosity bending the rules of the game - or more accurately, designed when there were no hard rules. The right builds ended up top contenders for both AoE and ST DPS, survivability on par with actual middle of the road sets, and never suffering from tohit debuffs or mob defense debuffs.

 

(Edit: and because I know it's coming, the "game is balanced around SOs" applies less than ever here. Perma-Rage is PARTICULARLY overpowered in the SO world, where you get to hit +2s and +3s with ease as soon as lvl 18 while everyone else whiffs helplessly; where you can easily choose to trade some of your damage and accuracy SOs for extra recharge and end reduction, while everyone else must stick at least 1 ACC/3 DAM as a baseline.)

 

It's going to be tough to argue for a return to Live values on the basis of "balance". Hyperbole statements claiming SS is subpar take away from the argument more than anything.

 

But it's easy to argue the nerf makes it UNFUN, and if SS needs to be balanced, then to remove the nerf until more suitable ideas come up.

 

 

Must be some new definition of hyperbole that means factual. SS is a subpar set without perma-rage. It's the perma-rage is OP statements that are hyperbole. As I have already said, you can't look at Rage alone as if you can take it as a standalone power, and try to make some sort of argument justifying a nerf that was purposely left bypassable on live because it break the set. It's not a legitimate argument. SS has to be looked at as a whole, and the attacks in SS are subpar compared to other sets. Perma-rage makes up for that, and it was intended to.  It all balances out to make a set that ends up, with perma-rage and no defense crash, to be solid but not outstanding. Without perma-rage able to be run, SS is a broken set.

[Chronocrator]

They don't want to 'waste' powers on doing exactly what they're asking for - not 'perfectly optimal'.  I haven't taken Unrelenting - I could but I haven't, because I haven't needed to.  I can mitigate the crash a bunch of other ways, whether it's by having a purple or two or by...oh, I dunno....PAYING ATTENTION to my powers, and being perfectly willing to wait 15 seconds every now and then.

 

You could take Unrelenting, sure, but on Homecoming it does not prevent crashes. I don't know the history behind the power or when/if the trait was added/removed, but it's not present. I'm just wondering about that.

 

I honestly don't know how popular of a choice it would be if it were available but I think it's something interesting to consider.

 

 

[Impact]

SS has to be looked at as a whole, and the attacks in SS are subpar compared to other sets. Perma-rage makes up for that, and it was intended to.  It all balances out to make a set that ends up, with perma-rage and no defense crash, to be solid but not outstanding. Without perma-rage able to be run, SS is a broken set.

 

Exactly right.  The only reason I play Super Strength is because of love for the concept, not the actual powers as implemented.  I've maxed it out multiple times as both a tanker and a brute, and I know its strengths and weaknesses.  With perma-rage running, SS is just ok.  Not terrible, but definitely not great either. And if you were to replace Rage with Build Up, SS would become the worst of the melee sets by a large margin.  As Justice Eagle said, Rage is not a stand-alone ability.  It's the cornerstone of Super Strength, the power the rest of the set is balanced around. 

[Mantidae]

I played a SS/DA to 50 on Torchbearer and actually forgot there was an unavoidable defense debuff now. It's worth remembering SS got a survivability buff in the form of KB->KD IOs, turning Hand Clap into (Stone Melee's) Fault.

 

That's not to tell people bummed about the nerf they got it wrong. Defense sets get penalized much more. There's a fair argument in that the damage debuff was already unavoidable, and hit everyone equally.

 

But, if we're honest for a moment... We all know SS is broken. +32% to +64% ToHit, perma, +80% to +160% damage, perma. A fast recharge, high damage 15 feet PBAoE with knockdown - more than twice the area of other melee PBAoEs!

 

SS was always a monstrosity bending the rules of the game - or more accurately, designed when there were no hard rules. The right builds ended up top contenders for both AoE and ST DPS, survivability on par with actual middle of the road sets, and never suffering from tohit debuffs or mob defense debuffs.

 

(Edit: and because I know it's coming, the "game is balanced around SOs" applies less than ever here. Perma-Rage is PARTICULARLY overpowered in the SO world, where you get to hit +2s and +3s with ease as soon as lvl 18 while everyone else whiffs helplessly; where you can easily choose to trade some of your damage and accuracy SOs for extra recharge and end reduction, while everyone else must stick at least 1 ACC/3 DAM as a baseline.)

 

It's going to be tough to argue for a return to Live values on the basis of "balance". Hyperbole statements claiming SS is subpar take away from the argument more than anything.

 

But it's easy to argue the nerf makes it UNFUN, and if SS needs to be balanced, then to remove the nerf until more suitable ideas come up.

 

The advantages you mention are balanced by the crash which already existed and high smash dmg resistance of many enemies. And yes the game should still be balanced around SOs because nobody starts at level 50. Any changes made should take the whole game into account.

 

Also I don't think it has been mentioned that there is a lot of debuffing going on at the higher-end content. An extra -def penalty on top is excessive.

 

If the Homecoming team believes fidelity to the devs' intentions is important then they should roll back this change. Cryptic & Paragon had many years to address this "bug" but did not even though they were overhauling multiple powersets during that time. Just because it is labeled as a bug doesn't necessarily mean it should be treated as one, since there was no reason to change the documentation so future pirate servers could operate.

 

If Homecoming wants to keep CoX' design philosophy that every powerset and combination should be viable then they should roll back this change.

 

If Homecoming is concerned that SS is somehow out-performing other sets then they need to do some dataming… and since I'm 99% certain their results wouldn't differ significantly from Paragon's they should roll back this change until/unless some major discrepency pops up.

 

I hope they reconsider. I don't think this is a reasonable decision by any measure.

[kelly Rocket]

The -Defense was never on live - that was an Issue 25 change. The game closed... before Issue 24 was Live.

Issue 24 change, not issue 25 change. So yes, it was on Live (The beta server counts).

[kelly Rocket]

What happened to Unrelenting from the Presence pool preventing crashes? I guess the concept was just abandoned at some point?

 

Nobody takes it because a THREE power investment in a pool that's otherwise 100% useless to Brutes and Tankers is not fun at all. It's a huge investment and sacrifice, and even then unless you build +recharge in to the absolute recharge cap you can only mitigate *one* crash, the next one will not have Unyielding ready yet.

[Chronocrator]

Nobody takes it because a THREE power investment in a pool that's otherwise 100% useless to Brutes and Tankers is not fun at all. It's a huge investment and sacrifice, and even then unless you build +recharge in to the absolute recharge cap you can only mitigate *one* crash, the next one will not have Unyielding ready yet.

 

Nobody takes it because you can't use it for this purpose at all and it doesn't function. I'm asking about why the option was completely removed. Why was this abandoned?

 

And yes, it'd be a sacrifice. You take a few mediocre powers and you get to dodge crashes. That way, the power still has a downside. Some powers specified that the crash is avoided by simply training the Unrelenting powers while others mentioned using it. Not 100% sure how this went for Rage, but that's something that can be easily tweaked.

 

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

Just popping in to say that the unavoidable -def crash is the only reason I haven't restarted my SS/WP brute from live.

 

Sub optimal power combo isnt meant to be great. SS thrives ona  heavy global recharge theme. WP is toggle heavy. Try SS/Regen way  way way more supermanish.

[zuel]

I'm not sure I get the resistance to rolling back the change coming from some quarters. Even if no-crash Rage gave SS an edge, I didn't see it preventing people from playing other powersets and making them very effective. Am I wrong about that?

[kelly Rocket]

Nobody takes it because a THREE power investment in a pool that's otherwise 100% useless to Brutes and Tankers is not fun at all. It's a huge investment and sacrifice, and even then unless you build +recharge in to the absolute recharge cap you can only mitigate *one* crash, the next one will not have Unyielding ready yet.

 

Nobody takes it because you can't use it for this purpose at all and it doesn't function. I'm asking about why the option was completely removed. Why was this abandoned?

 

And yes, it'd be a sacrifice. You take a few mediocre powers and you get to dodge crashes. That way, the power still has a downside. Some powers specified that the crash is avoided by simply training the Unrelenting powers while others mentioned using it. Not 100% sure how this went for Rage, but that's something that can be easily tweaked.

I haven't tested whether it works or not, so I'll have to take your word for it. It would have taken far, far too long to get a character built up to a high enough level to test.

 

The powers are more than mediocre. They're literally useless for a Brute or Tanker. You already have Taunt, which is better than Provoke in every way. You ABSOLUTELY DO NOT WANT a Placate of any sort. You have no use for Fears, especially on a Brute. These are all powers that no Tanker or Brute in their right minds would ever take by choice, ever.

 

And as I noted before, you're also forced to build to +305% global recharge to even use it properly.

 

It was a bad idea.