Psi Melee PSA: Boggled isn't Confused, Why That Matters, oh and +Insight chances

[Replacement]

I put this together literally last year, digging through Rubyred's files.  I only now remembered I've never posted this.

 

**I have not double-checked this in the interim 7-10 months, I welcome anyone to verify this.  I recommend https://cod.uberguy.net/html/index.html**

 

Item #1: "Boggled" is a granted power.

What this means is when you use "Boggle" on someone, they are granted an "empty" power that does nothing but gives them the Boggled condition.

Your other Psionic Melee attacks then run a check on-hit: If the enemy possesses "Boggled," your chance for +Insight is doubled. 

 

The important takeaway is that even if they aren't confused (e.g. soloing an AV), Boggling them still doubles your chances to gain Insight.

 

Item #2: Insight Chances per attack

 

Power Name	Insight Chance
Psionic Melee	Standard	Boggled
Mental Strike	8.89%	17.78%
Psi Blade	14.07%	28.13%
Telekinetic Blow	23.27%	46.53%
Psi Blade Sweep	19.04%	38.09%
Assassin's Strike (Stealth)	71.11%	100%
Assassin's Strike (Quick)	35.56%	71.11%
Mass Levitate	20%	40%

 

You can see Assassin's Strike is heavily skewed towards granting Insight, which is in keeping with the fact that (Oh, Item #3 maybe:)  Boggle is non-notify.

 

If you're solo and have the time, at least, you can Boggle>AS to guarantee yourself Insight.  I had intended to do exactly this vs a Boss or EB to test my Item #1 is as true as the data seems to tell me, but it's pinnacle me to only get 99% of the way through a proj-

 

Edited May 1, 2021 by Replacement
Topic clarity, %s on the %s

[Galaxy Brain]

Me @ Psy melee in the scrapper tests

 

[InvaderStych]

51 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Me @ Psy melee in the scrapper tests

 

 

Me @ Boggle on my Psi/SD Scrapper ....

[Sovera]

It's still a 2.24 animation to use. Perhaps against a pylon AKA 2-3 minute long fights, but 2.24 is really a long time to use on a non damaging attack. I suppose it just needs to be done until Insight kicks in again though. What was the lockout again? 15 seconds?

[InvaderStych]

On 5/19/2021 at 3:29 PM, Sovera said:

It's still a 2.24 animation to use.

 

Very True.  PM has plenty of long animation times as it is, but maybe @Replacement has struck upon the key to giving Boggle a usability bump.  Giving Boggle a variation of the Touch of Fear treatment:

 

For starters, ToF's activation is 1.97; at the very least Boggle's should be reduced to that.  Port over the Range/Radius/TargetCap to Boggle, and mimic the mag difference on the confuse.  As with the new ToF, the single target gets the primary confuse, and the fractional mag in the AoE applies the "Increased Insight Chance" status effect.

 

.... It's a thought. 🤷‍♂️

Edited May 22, 2021 by InvaderStych
deleted some repetition

[Glacier Peak]

Any idea how much Insight adds to the damage of each attack cast? From what I can gather it is not a large increase, but I don't want to make any faulty assumptions!

[InvaderStych]

Good question.

 

On GPB it is quite significant.  I'm having trouble reading this a little bit because GPB always has a hold, just gets a hold boost under Insight, but the extra dmg is listed there, and is slightly more than the Firey Embrace buff listed at the bottom of the page.

 

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=scrapper_melee.psionic_melee.greater_psi_blade&at=scrapper

 

Insight has its own entry in CoD, but it doesn't say much about what it does.  I think the power itself is just an on/off and triggers flagged attributes on individual attacks.

 

"-1.0 points of Designer Status" is a sort of hilarious way to describe it. 😄

 

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=temporary_powers.temporary_powers.psionic_melee_insight&at=scrapper

 

There's a chance that, expressed as a % of base dmg, different PM attacks have different % buffs from Insight, but that's going to require some math to sussa.  Fairly sure that Mass Lev's Insight bonus is a DoT, for example.

Edited December 29, 2021 by InvaderStych

[Glacier Peak]

I love GPB for its procability and damage per activation. If I could set up a better attack chain to do more with Insight, I'd be interested. 

[Replacement]

Caveats

• Numbers in table are based on Scrapper.  This should not make a difference.
  • With the exception of GPB, damage is a DoT effect.
• Numbers below are presented in scale.  If you are unfamiliar, this is simply the base number which is multiplied by your AT modifier (which itself has a current level check built into it.)
  • Tl;dr: this is base damage.
• Dot has a 20% chance to "miss" and cancel remaining ticks.  Average DPS increase is thus a probability equation best suited to someone else.  I am reporting max ticks only.
• All of my math is suspect.  At all times.

 

Insight Damage contribution

Power Name	Standard Damage	Insight Damage	Max % Provided
Mental Strike	.84	.084 x3	30%
Psi Blade	1.14	.2285 x3	60%*
Telekinetic Blow	1.8	.18 x3	30%
Psi Blade Sweep	1.44	.236 x3	49.1%
Greater Psi Blade	2.76	1.38 Strike	50%
Mass Levitate	1.42	.142 x3	30%

Assassin's Strike (both versions) do not gain any Insight benefit.

 

* According to my sus math, Psi Blade requires two ticks from Insight to beat Mental Strike in DPA, hence they greatly enhanced Insight damage it gains.

 

[Without_Pause]

Wondering if the purple Confusion Proc would also spread the Boggle power. Not that this saves or makes Psionic work for me, but at least there is a reason to take it outside of how much more useful it would be for soloing.

[Replacement]

11 hours ago, Without_Pause said:

Wondering if the purple Confusion Proc would also spread the Boggle power. Not that this saves or makes Psionic work for me, but at least there is a reason to take it outside of how much more useful it would be for soloing.

That would be cool, but it definitely does not.

 

The thing about the "boggled" status (actually a granted Temp power to the enemy) is that it's completely detached from the Confuse component, so effects buffing or modifying Confuse are completely ignored for it.

 

But on the good side, that exact behavior is what this thread is built to announce: even a Confuse-proof enemy is unable to avoid being Boggled!

[macskull]

TL;DR for this thread: Psi Melee trades a reliable grant mechanic for one tied to a power many builds will skip and even if taken will often be unused due to its awful cast time. (As an aside, confuse powers in general take way too long to cast.)

Edited January 4, 2022 by macskull

[Glacier Peak]

@macskull, trades? You don't need to take Boggled for Insight. It improves the chances of granting when enemies are Boggled though. 

[macskull]

5 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

@macskull, trades? You don't need to take Boggled for Insight. It improves the chances of granting when enemies are Boggled though. 

Right, but one of the chief complaints about the set's performance is the randomness of the insight mechanic. Sure, using Boggle makes it more likely but I can't imagine many cases where you wouldn't get more mileage out of simply continuing your attack chain instead of spending the time to cast Boggle in the hopes of a DPS boost.

[Glacier Peak]

3 hours ago, macskull said:

Right, but one of the chief complaints about the set's performance is the randomness of the insight mechanic. Sure, using Boggle makes it more likely but I can't imagine many cases where you wouldn't get more mileage out of simply continuing your attack chain instead of spending the time to cast Boggle in the hopes of a DPS boost.

So instead perhaps an alternative mechanic similar to Tidal Forces for Water Blast or more recently Seismic Forces from Seismic Blast that stacks up then can be unleashed?

Edited January 5, 2022 by Glacier Peak

[Without_Pause]

Boggle is more BU versus Aim. While interesting, it still remains flawed. 1. The animation time is terrible. 2. It is still ST. On teams and ones with any sort of decent speed to them this is terribly lacking. I think a minimal fix would be to shorten the animation time and make the actual Bobble flagging AoE. The actual Confuse can remain ST. I'll add this info to my thread about fixing Insight.

 

 

[InvaderStych]

13 hours ago, macskull said:

Right, but one of the chief complaints about the set's performance is the randomness of the insight mechanic. Sure, using Boggle makes it more likely but I can't imagine many cases where you wouldn't get more mileage out of simply continuing your attack chain instead of spending the time to cast Boggle in the hopes of a DPS boost.

 

That. Up there, all that stuff about Boggle: completely correct.

 

10 hours ago, Glacier Peak said:

So instead perhaps an alternative mechanic similar to Tidal Forces for Water Blast or more recently Seismic Forces from Seismic Blast that stacks up then can be unleashed?

 

Thank you, but please no.  Just give Concentration a flag that grants Insight (without changing its "Boost Up" numbers) or at the very least one that cancels lockout (see also Savage Melee), shorten the lockout timer, and mildly increase the grant chance on each power.  PM attack chains are far too slow for some sort of stacking mechanic, and we already have enough of those.  Also please no on slow/fast versions (energy melee) of powers or other wonky, difficult to balance mechanics that would mean nerfing the core set to implement them.

 

Look at it this way.  Insight doesn't always come to us in a linear progression, often it is a sudden rush of inspiration. I'm fine with it that way, it just needs mild tuning.

[Glacier Peak]

 

35 minutes ago, InvaderStych said:

Thank you, but please no.  Just give Concentration a flag that grants Insight (without changing its "Boost Up" numbers) or at the very least one that cancels lockout (see also Savage Melee), shorten the lockout timer, and mildly increase the grant chance on each power.  PM attack chains are far too slow for some sort of stacking mechanic, and we already have enough of those.  Also please no on slow/fast versions (energy melee) of powers or other wonky, difficult to balance mechanics that would mean nerfing the core set to implement them.

 

Look at it this way.  Insight doesn't always come to us in a linear progression, often it is a sudden rush of inspiration. I'm fine with it that way, it just needs mild tuning.

Yeah I'd be down to test whatever makes it to beta - my reply to Mac was meant to get a better picture of what was being discussed as an alternative.

[InvaderStych]

29 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

Yeah I'd be down to test whatever makes it to beta

 

Same. I have thoughts on what I'd like to see, but I'm hardly an expert or authority figure.  In fairness that comment of mine belongs in the thread linked above in S&F. 😄

 

The "boggled" status thing could be "low hanging fruit" to leverage in an Insight tune-up in some fashion though. Hmm.

[Glacier Peak]

34 minutes ago, InvaderStych said:

Same. I have thoughts on what I'd like to see, but I'm hardly an expert or authority figure.  In fairness that comment of mine belongs in the thread linked above in S&F. 😄

 

The "boggled" status thing could be "low hanging fruit" to leverage in an Insight tune-up in some fashion though. Hmm.

The DPS output of Psi Melee has so much potential; GPB is a behemoth of an attack, maybe on par with one of the hardest hitting ST attack in the game. On top of that it can accept damage and hold procs, it recharges fairly quickly, and animates/activates smoothly (considering its damage). The fact that the set lets you throw in Concentrate and then add Insight on top of that, it really gives this power a best in class status.

 

Where I see the set coming up short is the predictability of its secondary set mechanic, Insight - while it can be predicted roughly as the OP has so graciously researched (THANK YOU!!!), the mechanic can definitely be refined. I've noticed anecdotally that Psi Blade is stacking Insight better(?) than Mental Strike - which has altered how I set up my attack chain (currently on my Stalker - BU, AS, GPB, PB and then an out-of-hide AS if anything is left standing). I'd love to throw in a Boggled (since it doesn't break Hide), but right now I don't need to. Level 54 DA Incarnate Bosses die from that one attack string.

[Glacier Peak]

So Boggled doesn't alert/notify the mob it is cast on, so cast time it somewhat moot, it provides 15 seconds of Confusion, it has a base range of 40 feet, and provides additional chance for Insight to collect.

 

To me, this is an opener - cast it on the mob prior to engaging, have that added Insight chance in the pocket and then carry out the normal attack rotation.