Melee Target cap 10 & Tank suggestion

[arcane]

22 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

If it doesn't matter, then there should be no issue with nerfing tank mitigation to get things equitable again.

I’d rather lower tanker damage than mitigation. 

[Bill Z Bubba]

4 minutes ago, arcane said:

I’d rather lower tanker damage than mitigation. 

 

I don't think you're alone there.

[Bill Z Bubba]

On 5/17/2021 at 12:43 PM, Apparition said:

Nope.  Their damage cap was 850% until the release of Going Rogue in August 2010, where it was reduced to 775%.  Then lowered further to 700% with Issue 26, Page Four.

 

That was part of the mistake. Nerfing brute damage. Right now, my brute is barely faster on pylon times AND mission clearing than my tank while both are FAR behind my scrapper. (Claws and SR for all three.)

 

If my scrapper can take a pylon down in 3 minutes and the tank can do it in 4.5 minutes, then the brute should be taking it out in 3.75 minutes. Not 4 to 4.25 minutes.

[arcane]

I feel like we should start by bumping the damage modifier back down (0.85->0.75, right) since the AoE/radius buffs are quite popular and the lower modifier can still be worked around a bit with procs. Then re-crunch the numbers and see where that leaves us. It might still leave tankers ahead, but it seems like the most obvious incremental measure you could try.

[Infinitum]

3 hours ago, Apparition said:

 

 

It does if it lets the Tanker load up on damage procs without having to worry about survivability, unlike Brutes.

Its still won't surpass the brute.  Its not close actually - especially once the garbage mobs are gone and you are facing boss or higher.

[agentx5]

On 5/17/2021 at 11:27 AM, Dark Dove said:

 

I feel like tankers have been incentivized very well and need very little overall tuning now, outside of individual powersets. I sometimes have a hard time not choosing a tanker with how excellent the recent changes have made them.  Your ideas are very fun-oriented and I appreciate that, they are good ideas in the realm of having fun, but unfortunately I don't think that they are necessary or balanced changes for the current live iteration of the game.

 

I would suggest trying some other secondary powersets that aren't Super Strength, as that set is the only one that arguably hasn't gotten any better due to the changes, almost every other secondary is much, much stronger now with larger radius AoE's and cones (Super Strength's AoE's specifically state they aren't a part of the changes, try some powersets that have powers that are a part of the tanker changes).

 

Thanks for the interesting suggestions. I hope you find some other fun tanker combinations to enjoy!

 

I don't think I've ever played with you to know where your opinion comes from, but I can accept almost all of what you said... except with but one thing I didn't see you mention @Dark Dove:  aggro cap

 

The current 17 is frustratingly too little (and HomeComing has one of the two lowest aggro caps out there), unlimited would be obscenely too much (i.e. pulling the map), but somewhere like between 24 and 32 is ideal (basically two groups, and doesn't step on the toes of controllers).  And it doesn't just have to be tankers, talking global aggro cap limit; and not a huge increase either, more of a tweak.

 

It also would have some nice QoL benefits.  Tankers could pull the threat off 2nd group that accidentally got aggro'ed by somebody or their pet.  It would help to put an end to the embarrassingly dumb AI that stands there and just watches your team fight their buddies looking bored because you're on the threat list but not the aggro list.  [Fold Space] and [Shadow Slip] definitely have helped tremendously, but there's some fun being missed out on here.

 

So while yes, there has been efforts to differentiate Tankers (better with AoE) from Brutes (better with single-target) here on HomeComing; it comes up as a wishlist item rather often on voice comms and streaming that if if the aggro cap was just a little bit higher then it would be more fun for the whole team (even if the Aaaaaah! factor gets even more insane, be careful what you pull).  This is becoming a more frequently asked for suggestion as far as I know, so it's worth exploring.

 

But back to the OP, @Konflict the bodyguard mode is a definite no, from the way you described it at least.  A friend with Bio Armor could "bodyguard" my main character and she'd no longer be any sort of a glass canon, hell she'd probably be the main-tank while the actual tank goes AFK on follow mode. The closest to your request that is balanced is something recently changed in the game: [Spirit Ward], and since it's a sorcery pool power, that means you can pick it up on a tanker if you want.  Thematically I can understand how it sounds cool, but in actual teamplay it'd be broken as heck, again at least the way you presented it.

[Dark Dove]

15 minutes ago, agentx5 said:

I don't think I've ever played with you to know where your opinion comes from

 

I also do not believe I've ever played with you, although I can assure you my opinion comes from a similar place as yours, a City Of player.  I happen to favor playing Tankers specifically, but I have no more authority than the next player, all I can offer are my insights from experiences which may or may not be the same as the next player's experiences.

 

17 minutes ago, agentx5 said:

The current 17 is frustratingly too little

 

That's fair to say, and I appreciate how the game might not be suiting your needs the way you want.  For me, I've not had any issues with the aggro cap being too small, I've been able to play tankers aggressively and what I feel is skillfully, and I've never felt the need for a higher aggro cap or been frustrated by the current aggro cap.  With the current aggro cap I still feel highly motivated to play my myriad tankers often. None of the content available has me yearning for more aggro cap room, including the many different ways I've experienced the available content (from easymode to extremely difficult mode). Would it be nice in a few situations?  Yes.

 

20 minutes ago, agentx5 said:

if if the aggro cap was just a little bit higher then it would be more fun for the whole team

 

This, too, I haven't experienced in game, and from a top level viewpoint it seems like higher aggro caps could be more fun for tankers and could be less fun for every other AT that isn't an aggro control AT. There are many reasons for this, none of which I'm qualified to give a treatise on, but just from a distant view it seems like a one-sided ask. Certainly unlimited aggro caps are a mess, I experienced that fully on both sides of the issue long ago, but approaching higher aggro caps will (from my player's point of view) always cause other issues to arise that, while not at critical mass like unlimited aggro caps, will incentivize playing a tanker more than other AT's and create new highly-incentivized sequestered forms of play centered around the tanker and not other AT's. This is hyperbolic to illustrate the slide that happens. I'm just showing that I've seen aggro caps make a mess out of the game for everyone but tankers before. Homecoming is a different game, I could be very wrong about what a change to the aggro cap could cause to happen for the better or worse.

 

I don't have anything else particularly useful to add. Summary is I simply have a different experience in game than the one you have had, and I don't find aggro caps to be frustratingly low and I am not sold on the idea that higher aggro caps would be more fun for "the whole team". I hope that the development team makes whatever changes they feel necessary to address the voices you speak for from your voice chats, and that a way is found for everyone to have more fun. I don't think aggro caps are the way for that, but I'm open to it if it happens to be in the dev's plans.

[SwitchFade]

Sigh. Reposting myself here from old threads.... Because, people seem to have misconceptions about what would happen, or they use fallacious arguments...

 

Removing the aggro cap would not solve any of the issues being discussed. A tank that can afk 17, can afk 200. This was proven on live. The only result of removing the aggro limit would be the return to a tank now being able to control the aggro of everything, thereby eliminating any potential threat to anyone.

 

On live, before the aggro changes, I was able to hold aggro of limitless foes and never be harmed. This made game play for all other players single faceted. My tanks are now actually tougher than live and if they can stand on GM island with 10 GMs pounding away and afk, then there's no number of minions and LTs that could be a threat that the game engine could get within perceptual range.

 

The aggro cap doesn't remove risk, it ADDS risk to all other toons. Anything above 17 will aggro someone ELSE, so every other non-tank type is going to feel the pain. This introduces tactical gameplay. The argument that "we run in, kill one group and move on," is not an issue of aggro, but of spawn design.

 

Let me be clear, spawn size, spawn spacing and spawn density are the issue many mistake for "omg 17 aggro makes game nofunz." Next time you think this is not true, run a map that puts 30 MOBs in close proximity and watch how the tank cannot protect the team. Remove the cap? I can now trivialize all other players.

 

Tanks were the INDIRECT target of an aggro limit. Tanks should NEVER be able to control all the aggro. The target was to balance risk, reward and dynamic gameplay and it did just that. Now, before rushing in everyone needs to be aware of just how many MOBs there are and the very real possibility that a tank can't just be an I win button.

 

This is the same reason controllers had their AoE hold adjusted, a single power or AT could effectively neuter all MOBs.

 

Make no mistake, if you raise or remove the aggro cap all that would result is less risk to everyone, less dynamic gameplay and less for everyone to do. Further, mob spacing, mob size, mob density and more would all have to be adjusted. Even more to the point, any team that didn't have a tank would have a really bad day, as the increased threat that no other AT can handle would instantly dirt nap them.

 

Let's take the "realism" argument and put it in a nice glass case called reality of gameplay: in the real world, that stupid, lumbering unthreatening tank would be ignored as I rapidly Gank support toons. Really, in the real world, defenders and controllers go down first, always.

 

None of this debate should even consider lvl 50 "zerging" gameplay with twinked sets. Load up a lvl 25 team on SOs and it will become very clear that a limit of 17 is very well designed aspect of gameplay, because virtually no AT can even handle 17, let alone 30, 50 or no limit.

 

I'm sorry, but fighting groups of MOBs from factions like council, freaks or even carnies on maps that isolate groups from each other in different rooms and break line of sight is not "solvable" by increasing aggro cap; even if aggro cap were raised, the additional MOBs can't see you.

 

Want proof the aggro cap makes things more dynamic? Go fight banished pantheon at level 50+ where groups of MOBs spawn close to each other and watch how the cap makes everyone a target. Remove that cap? Now, no threat to anyone but the tank. One dimensional gameplay again.

 

So yeah, enjoy textwall! 😁

[golstat2003]

SwitchFade said it all. Other servers have messed with the cap and yes, it makes game play absolutely boring on those servers. And even easier than COH already is.

[Andreah]

No change needed. There are tricks and techniques for handling aggro, and some actual teamwork can really make it shine.

 

Someone had written up a very nice guide to how aggro work, in detail, and how it can affect your group tactics. Sadly, I can't find it at the moment. However, what I can say is your main tank is probably not the only character on your team that can handle aggro, and passing it around will let you do amazing fun things.