Melee Target cap 10 & Tank suggestion

[Konflict]

Please change back to 16.

 

As good as the other power sets may be I can't play anything else other than a Super Strength Tanker.

 

I know you guys done this to make Tankers better but could of give the Archetype a good inherent skill instead of nerfing the rest of the Archetypes.

I know these changes happened pre-Homecoming but could have changed by now.........

 

Scrappers: get critical hits

Brutes: get damage bonus

Tankers: get meh

 

I think Tankers should get 1 of the inherent skills listed below.......

 

1, Agro crap increased to 32.

2, Bodyguard mode (Gives the power to select a player and take all damage within a certain radius).

[arcane]

Huh? Tankers are arguably overtuned now.

[Rathulfr]

Tankers just got a bunch of love in the recent past, just a few patches ago -- including a buff to their AoEs.  You might want to check the patch notes section of the forums for more info.

 

[SwitchFade]

No vote.

[golstat2003]

Yeah no.

 

Tanks are fine now. Some would say WAAAY better than fine now.

 

They don't need ANY further changes.

 

OP please do some reading in the Tank forums to see what we mean.

Edited May 17, 2021 by golstat2003

[Dark Dove]

1 hour ago, Konflict said:

Please change back to 16.

 

As good as the other power sets may be I can't play anything else other than a Super Strength Tanker.

 

I know you guys done this to make Tankers better but could of give the Archetype a good inherent skill instead of nerfing the rest of the Archetypes.

I know these changes happened pre-Homecoming but could have changed by now.........

 

Scrappers: get critical hits

Brutes: get damage bonus

Tankers: get meh

 

I think Tankers should get 1 of the inherent skills listed below.......

 

1, Agro crap increased to 32.

2, Bodyguard mode (Gives the power to select a player and take all damage within a certain radius).

 

I feel like tankers have been incentivized very well and need very little overall tuning now, outside of individual powersets. I sometimes have a hard time not choosing a tanker with how excellent the recent changes have made them.  Your ideas are very fun-oriented and I appreciate that, they are good ideas in the realm of having fun, but unfortunately I don't think that they are necessary or balanced changes for the current live iteration of the game.

 

I would suggest trying some other secondary powersets that aren't Super Strength, as that set is the only one that arguably hasn't gotten any better due to the changes, almost every other secondary is much, much stronger now with larger radius AoE's and cones (Super Strength's AoE's specifically state they aren't a part of the changes, try some powersets that have powers that are a part of the tanker changes).

 

Thanks for the interesting suggestions. I hope you find some other fun tanker combinations to enjoy!

[TemporalVileTerror]

@Dark Dove

 

Many other posters could learn a thing or two from you.  BRAVO! in that very thoughtful and helpful post.

[Konflict]

2 hours ago, Rathulfr said:

Tankers just got a bunch of love in the recent past, just a few patches ago -- including a buff to their AoEs.  You might want to check the patch notes section of the forums for more info.

 

What I am saying is those changes are trash, and back on live 2007 when I was playing last all melee Archetypes hit 16 targets on AoEs NOT 10.

[Apparition]

17 minutes ago, Konflict said:

What I am saying is those changes are trash, and back on live 2007 when I was playing last all melee Archetypes hit 16 targets on AoEs NOT 10.

 

 

You remember incorrectly.  Melee AoE always had a ten target cap.

[Konflict]

1 hour ago, Dark Dove said:

 

"I sometimes have a hard time not choosing a tanker with how excellent the recent changes have made them."  

 

I have a similar issue, I can't play anything else melee because the target cap on the AoEs is only 10 instead of 16.

 

I made Super Strength Brute - Willpower Brute on live and quit the game when they made the changes on Rage 900 to 600 and Footstomp 16 to 10,

1st thing I did when coming back to Homecoming was make that Brute and remembered why I quit the game.

So I re-rolled to the ONLY melee Archetype that was still hitting AoEs to 16 targets.

[Konflict]

1 minute ago, Apparition said:

 

 

You remember incorrectly.  Melee AoE always had a ten target cap.

And Brutes never had a damage bonus of 900 right?

[arcane]

Imagine thinking AT’s are unplayable in this game my cat can solo lol.

[Apparition]

5 minutes ago, Konflict said:

And Brutes never had a damage bonus of 900 right?

 

Nope.  Their damage cap was 850% until the release of Going Rogue in August 2010, where it was reduced to 775%.  Then lowered further to 700% with Issue 26, Page Four.

[Dark Dove]

25 minutes ago, Konflict said:

I can't play anything else melee because the target cap on the AoEs is only 10 instead of 16.

 

I understand your frustration.  It's okay to prefer an AT over another though because of incentives that are particularly attractive to you, that's usually the intent of AT-based incentives, like Brute's fury, Scrapper criticals and the like.  Other people will prefer the incentives of other AT's more, and I think right now there are strong enough incentives on all of the melee AT's to satisfy a wide range of player interests, which is a really good place to be.  You clearly are more drawn to the tanker incentives, but large changes to the current incentives will have sweeping consequences for all AT's and the incentivized choice points in selecting an AT, and I think the scope of your suggestions is just too big right now.  I still think your suggestions are really fun, but they just don't factor in the effect it will have on the rest of the gameplay experience as a whole, which isn't broken to the point of needing such changes as far as I can tell.

 

Maybe give the other Melee AT's another shot, and try to focus your attention on the incentives they offer instead of focusing on the AoE caps only? There are a lot of good reasons to play a Scrapper, Brute or Stalker that don't require more than 10 targets to be attractive and fun.

[Outrider_01]

Tanks are fine, they absorb damage and punt minions around with their target cap.  Just don't farm with a tank unless it's your content build; fire/rad tanks are about 60% effective vs a brute - higher hit cap is cool and all until you realize it's the same damage as your T1/2 across more targets with a lower damage cap; killing 12 boss or EB at the same time is boring.

[Rathulfr]

21 hours ago, Konflict said:

What I am saying is those changes are trash, and back on live 2007 when I was playing last all melee Archetypes hit 16 targets on AoEs NOT 10.

 

I see.  Then perhaps Homecoming isn't the right CoH host for you.  Do any of the other hosts (Rebirth, ThunderSpy, Cake, etc.) have what you're looking for, instead?  That's the beautiful thing about CoH now: there are lots of different "flavors" out there from which you can choose.  Perhaps one of them can scratch that itch for you.

 

[Galaxy Brain]

@Infinitum and @Bill Z Bubba tested Tanks vs Brutes, while it is much closer in "actual" combat the Brute still prevails for damage. I wouldn't put too too much into the "Tanks got overtuned" bit.

Edited May 18, 2021 by Galaxy Brain

[Apparition]

8 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

@Infinitum and @Bill Z Bubba tested Tanks vs Brutes, while it is much closer in "actual" combat the Brute still prevails for damage. I wouldn't put too too much into the "Tanks got overtuned" bit.

 

The problem is that Tankers are now much too close to Brutes in damage while Tankers vastly outclass Brutes in survivability.  Even worse, this allows Tankers to load up on damage procs, eclipsing Brute damage.

 

I was on a Hamidon raid over the weekend.  The yellow mito assault team consisted of seven Tankers and one Scrapper.  It was honestly one of the saddest things I have ever seen in the game.

[Galaxy Brain]

1 minute ago, Apparition said:

 

The problem is that Tankers are now much too close to Brutes in damage while Tankers vastly outclass Brutes in survivability.  Even worse, this allows Tankers to load up on damage procs, eclipsing Brute damage.

 

I was on a Hamidon raid over the weekend.  The yellow mito assault team consisted of seven Tankers and one Scrapper.  It was honestly one of the saddest things I have ever seen in the game.

 

I think the next bit to look at though is:

 

Does the extra survival actually matter? If a Brute and a Tank get out of the same fight / mission alive, then one taking a scoot less damage is sort of irrelevant. 

[Apparition]

Just now, Galaxy Brain said:

 

I think the next bit to look at though is:

 

Does the extra survival actually matter? If a Brute and a Tank get out of the same fight / mission alive, then one taking a scoot less damage is sort of irrelevant. 

 

 

It does if it lets the Tanker load up on damage procs without having to worry about survivability, unlike Brutes.

[Galaxy Brain]

1 minute ago, Apparition said:

It does if it lets the Tanker load up on damage procs without having to worry about survivability, unlike Brutes.

 

That is a possibility, but can't the Brute do the same procs without as drastic a sacrifice? The way it sounds is like the Brute cannot compete at all anymore as it has to choose either procs or defense, and that is not the case.

[Apparition]

4 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

 

That is a possibility, but can't the Brute do the same procs without as drastic a sacrifice? The way it sounds is like the Brute cannot compete at all anymore as it has to choose either procs or defense, and that is not the case.

 

 

The point is that Brutes do have to make a sacrifice in order to load up on damage procs, while Tankers do not, or not nearly as drastic a sacrifice.  I very rarely see Brutes outside of AE anymore, unless they're old Brutes made before April of last year.  When almost an entire melee damage team is comprised of Tankers, there's a big problem.

[Bill Z Bubba]

2 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

@Infinitum and @Bill Z Bubba tested Tanks vs Brutes, while it is much closer in "actual" combat the Brute still prevails for damage. I wouldn't put too too much into the "Tanks got overtuned" bit.

 

Overtuned on damage compared to how much more mitigation they have? Yea, I'm stickin to that.

 

The difference in mitigation is far greater than the difference in damage and that's still wrong.

[Bill Z Bubba]

2 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

I think the next bit to look at though is:

 

Does the extra survival actually matter? If a Brute and a Tank get out of the same fight / mission alive, then one taking a scoot less damage is sort of irrelevant. 

 

If it doesn't matter, then there should be no issue with nerfing tank mitigation to get things equitable again.

[arcane]

2 hours ago, Apparition said:

 Even worse, this allows Tankers to load up on damage procs, eclipsing Brute damage.

The damage procs allow the Tankers to close the damage gap, which is not the same as surpassing brute damage. Lots of evidence has been provided that Tankers do almost as much damage as Brutes. Basically zero convincing evidence has been provided that they do more damage than Brutes. Bill’s argument still stands as a subjective reason you could potentially argue this is wrong, but saying Tankers actually surpass Brute damage is just misinformation as far as I am aware.