Stalkers and End Game Content

[WillParkinson]

Does anyone have an opinion on stalkers post level 50? How do they stalk up against brutes and scrappers and the like?

 

Do you have one you think works better than others?

 

Thank you! ❤️

[Oysterhead]

End game... they all get rather similar I feel? When you're fully IO'd out and all incarnates, all the melee classes are typically soft capped defense and/or with enough resists/regen/absorbs that you can be pretty fearless, stalkers are no exception. On the damage output side, stalker when compared to the others will depend on which primary was picked. Some of them drop a lot of area damage, while others drop very little. If you're in a group setting, a stalker can focus on bosses and up which are typically the largest danger (minions and lt will just drop dead near instantly regardless) and be contributing a ton. Solo is where area damage will matter a bit more, since as a stalker you have no taunt, you want to finish off pesky little things fast and then burn down the bosses. You can pick up the epic pools to add area damage as well (Mu and Blaze being very popular for that reason). Solo, something like Ninja Blade or Martial Arts with very low to no area damage is going to play a bit differently than a like a Claws/Bio or Elec/Shield with lots more AoE.

 

Over on the scrapper forums there's the Trapdoor test thread, linked below. Stalkers are doing very well on that, keeping up with the scrappers for many builds. 

 

[Shred Monkey]

Short answer, Stalkers are kings of the endgame!

 

Personally, I look at it this way.  If a stalker is doing more damage then a brute, then the only reason to play the brute is to improve my survivability.   But unlike damage output, survivability is binary.  There's no bonus for keeping your hitpoints over 50% for an entire mission.  There is, however a benefit to killing things faster, both in terms of reward/time and, IMHO, level of fun.  Since fully built in endgame content my stalkers are generally not dying, they have a binary score equal to the other melee classes in survivability.  And therefore, I can't justify playing a scrapper or brute.    

 

AoE damage vs ST damage is one area where I'd lean away from stalkers, but in that case I'd personally move toward the blaster, not toward the scrapper/brute.

 

Granted, if you want to do some crazy solo-endgame content with handicaps specifically chosen to require extreme survivability, then of course more survivability is needed.  But that survivability requirement is not found in normal endgame TFs and Trials.

Edited July 22, 2021 by Shred Monkey

[Haijinx]

With certain primaries it is the best choice of Melee classes for damage end game.   

 

The best version of KM, SJ, Staff, Electric and probably Savage  

 

Some Scrappers will do better with other primaries (MA, WM and EM for example).  Brutes will get more AOE with some primaries like MA, KAT, BS)  And of course some primaries are not available on Stalkers (TW, WM, SS, SM)    

 

I've found team survival to be excellent due to decreased threat.  Solo survival is good, but not as good as Scrappers or Brutes.  And Tankers of course have a completely different role. 

[Gobbledigook]

You could try my build if you want a survivable Stalker lol.

 

This Villain build was built using Mids Reborn 3.0.5.6
https://github.com/Reborn-Team/MidsReborn

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 50 Magic Stalker
Primary Power Set: Staff Fighting
Secondary Power Set: Invulnerability
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Flight
Ancillary Pool: Mu Mastery

Villain Profile:
Level 1: Precise Strike -- SprAssMar-Rchg/Rchg Build Up(A), Hct-Dmg(3), Hct-Acc/Rchg(3), Hct-Dam%(5), Hct-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(13), Hct-Dmg/EndRdx(13)
Level 1: Hide -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 2: Resist Physical Damage -- GldArm-3defTpProc(A)
Level 4: Temp Invulnerability -- UnbGrd-ResDam(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(5), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam(11)
Level 6: Assassin's Staff -- SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx(A), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(7), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg(7), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(9), SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg(9), SprBlsCol-Rchg/HoldProc(11)
Level 8: Build Up -- GssSynFr--Build%(A), GssSynFr--ToHit(15), GssSynFr--Rchg/EndRdx(15), GssSynFr--ToHit/Rchg(48), GssSynFr--ToHit/Rchg/EndRdx(50), GssSynFr--ToHit/EndRdx(50)
Level 10: Dull Pain -- NmnCnv-Heal/Rchg(A)
Level 12: Boxing -- TchofDth-Acc/Dmg(A)
Level 14: Tough -- StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(A)
Level 16: Unyielding -- UnbGrd-ResDam(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(17), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam(17), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(46), UnbGrd-Max HP%(46), UnbGrd-EndRdx/Rchg(48)
Level 18: Eye of the Storm -- FrcFdb-Rechg%(A), SprStlGl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(19), SprStlGl-Dmg/Rchg(19), SprStlGl-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(23), FrcFdb-Dmg/EndRdx/KB(23), FrcFdb-Acc/KB(25)
Level 20: Environmental Resistance -- UnbGrd-ResDam(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(21), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam(21), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(48)
Level 22: Weave -- ShlWal-Def/EndRdx(A), Rct-ResDam%(25), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(37), ShlWal-Def/Rchg(45), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(45)
Level 24: Combat Jumping -- ShlWal-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(A), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx(43), ShlWal-Def(43), ShlWal-Def/Rchg(46)
Level 26: Guarded Spin -- Erd-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(A), Erd-%Dam(27), Erd-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(27), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg(34), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(37), SprAvl-Rchg/KDProc(37)
Level 28: Reinforced -- ShlWal-Def/EndRdx(A), ShlWal-Def(29), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(29), ShlWal-Def/Rchg(31)
Level 30: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(31)
Level 32: Sky Splitter -- SprStlGl-Acc/Dmg(A), SprStlGl-Rchg/Hide%(33), SprStlGl-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(33), FrcFdb-Rechg%(33), FrcFdb-Dmg/EndRdx/KB(34), FrcFdb-Acc/KB(34)
Level 35: Tough Hide -- ShlWal-Def/EndRdx(A), ShlWal-Def(36), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(36), ShlWal-Def/Rchg(36)
Level 38: Zapp -- SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg(A), SprWntBit-Dmg/Rchg(39), SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(39), SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(39), SprWntBit-Rchg/SlowProc(40), SprWntBit-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg(40)
Level 41: Ball Lightning -- Artl-Acc/Dam(A), Artl-Acc/Dam/Rech(42), Artl-Dam/End(42), Ann-ResDeb%(42), Ann-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(43), Ann-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(45)
Level 44: Hover -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 47: Fly -- WntGif-ResSlow(A), WntGif-RunSpd/Jump/Fly/Rng/EndRdx(50)
Level 49: Evasive Maneuvers -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 1: Assassination 
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Health -- Mrc-Rcvry+(A), NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(31), Pnc-Heal/+End(40)
Level 1: Stamina -- PrfShf-End%(A)
Level 1: Combo Level 1 
Level 1: Combo Level 2 
Level 1: Combo Level 3 
Level 49: Quick Form 
Level 47: Afterburner 
Level 50: Agility Core Paragon 
Level 50: Degenerative Core Flawless Interface 
Level 50: Ageless Radial Epiphany 
Level 50: Assault Core Embodiment 
Level 50: Born In Battle 
Level 50: High Pain Threshold 
Level 50: Invader 
Level 50: Marshal 
------------

 

 

[DreadShinobi]

On 7/22/2021 at 2:10 PM, Shred Monkey said:

Short answer, Stalkers are kings of the endgame!

 

Personally, I look at it this way.  If a stalker is doing more damage then a brute, then the only reason to play the brute is to improve my survivability.   But unlike damage output, survivability is binary.  There's no bonus for keeping your hitpoints over 50% for an entire mission.  There is, however a benefit to killing things faster, both in terms of reward/time and, IMHO, level of fun.  Since fully built in endgame content my stalkers are generally not dying, they have a binary score equal to the other melee classes in survivability.  And therefore, I can't justify playing a scrapper or brute.    

 

AoE damage vs ST damage is one area where I'd lean away from stalkers, but in that case I'd personally move toward the blaster, not toward the scrapper/brute.

 

Granted, if you want to do some crazy solo-endgame content with handicaps specifically chosen to require extreme survivability, then of course more survivability is needed.  But that survivability requirement is not found in normal endgame TFs and Trials.

Survivability isnt really the comparison point to make between stalker vs brute/tank/scrapper, it is aggro control/taunt/punchvoke. A stalker cant clump mobs like other melee ATs can. Mob clumping improves clear speed. Keeping an AV in one place improves dps. If you have 7 blasters/corrs/defenders on your team and you 8th man join as stalker you will absolutely be just fine but something that can aggro control may have been a more beneficial role to fill. It is also pretty rare for an 8 man team not to have one brute/tank/scrap that can aggro control and you really only need 1 to have that role filled. It is the same reason that scrappers do so much better with bio/shield/invul than fiery or dark armor because having a taunt aura means you fill an additional role for your team. Imo the taunt factor is why you make that armor choice decision on a scrapper and why you would choose to prefer a stalker or other melee AT.

 

At endgame aoe output is pretty excessive. Global recharge in builds is high means aoe attack chains are more fluid and long recharge high impact aoes are up more often. Softcapped defenses means squishier archetypes can output their aoe damage more aggressively and not care about the aggro that comes their way. Oh and judgments.

 

High AoE output and trash mob clearing is typically never something that will slow down an endgame group however having higher single target damage available becomes more valuable when aoe damage is already excessive. Leveling groups want to have lots of aoe damage, but this shifts at endgame. There are more AVs in endgame content and even in trash clearing having the bosses within the spawn die at the same time as the lieutenants makes noticeable difference. This is a big part of stalkers being endgame kings.

 

Very similar to stalkers having a very valid role in endgame is also why poison support is so damn amazing because bosses and AVs just melt. 

 

Blaster/corr/defender survivability can be built to very solid levels with IOs alone. If you have no trouble surviving in content as a squishier archetype you will not notice a difference in survivability between any of the melee archetypes other than it being way more than necessary. 

 

Stalkers do great with just speed/leaping/fighting power pools. Maneuvers and assault are always good stat pads but leadership toggles dont have the best values with stalker buff modifiers. Stalkers have a little flexibility here and I would encourage any IO'd stalker build to give presence/provoke a try in their build. It allows you to more flexibly fill roles for various team compositions or combat situations by having some minor aggro control capabilities. Usually this makes the most difference when you find yourself on a team without any other punchvoke/taunt when fighting an archvillain that may otherwise run all over the place (romulus, director 11), and it is very satisfying to have that taunt available when it is needed.

 

Value in flexing your capable role is also well shown in scrappers with taunt auras, dominators with sleet, blasters with bonfire or electrifying fences, sentinels with aoe immob, high damage controllers or phantom army utility, or uhhh kheldians i guess. Taunting stalkers are pretty cool.

 

[Darkir]

On 7/28/2021 at 2:11 PM, DreadShinobi said:

Blaster/corr/defender survivability can be built to very solid levels with IOs alone. If you have no trouble surviving in content as a squishier archetype you will not notice a difference in survivability between any of the melee archetypes other than it being way more than necessary. 

Not true at all. The survivability difference between the melee ATs and the ranged ATs is stark. You get mezzed all the time on the ranged ATs and almost never on the melee ones. A single mez causes your toggles to drop on the ranged AT and you take a faceplant. This is one of my biiggest complaints about the RoP nerf. Melee ATs still get run around with mez protection and ultra survivability and the one power that helped squishies deal with it cost a 3 power investment and could only be up 50% of the time with very good recharge. Now its not even worth mentioning. Melee ATs are absolutely more survivable than the ranged ATs.

 

Then on top of all that you get higher damage scale for all the melee ATs except brutes who have inherent +%dmg and a super high %dmg cap. So, most of the time (outside of something like kinetics on corruptors) melee ATs end up doing more dmg and are more survivable. (edit: higher dmg scale except for doms and blasters)

/endrant

Edited January 21, 2022 by Darkir

[Bill Z Bubba]

54 minutes ago, Darkir said:

You get mezzed all the time on the ranged ATs

 

Unless you have Clarion. Or you're a dominator with perma-dom. Since the thread is about end-game.

 

Should probably check that damage scale comment as well.

https://cod.uberguy.net./html/modifiers-table.html?mod=ranged_damage
https://cod.uberguy.net./html/modifiers-table.html?mod=melee_damage

 

[Darkir]

2 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Unless you have Clarion. Or you're a dominator with perma-dom. Since the thread is about end-game.

I mean if we are considering the destiny slot the melee ATs will still be more survivable because they can choose barrier or rebirth instead of clarion.

 

Fair point about the damage scale though.

[Without_Pause]

What an odd take from someone who is known for making tank versions of squishies.

[Darkir]

33 minutes ago, Without_Pause said:

What an odd take from someone who is known for making tank versions of squishies.

What is odd about me saying that stalkers are more tanky than corrs/def/trollers because stalkers get mez protection?

(I know I can't convey tone, but I am confused why this is odd. I mean this with no hostility.)

[Without_Pause]

Primarily because those ATs can soft cap meaningful def and res and have access to mezz protection and a number of them have self heals. The difference is stark? They get mezzed all the time? I got a Blaster to level 41 doing Hardcore. I have another Blaster and Def which I consider to be some of my easiest builds to keep upright since I expect them to flaceplant so little and neither are currently using IO sets. I'm honestly shocked when they do faceplant. If your Kintank can get mezzed all the time, then it isn't much of a Kintank. Maybe it is nostalgia, but I don't recall even my common IO built Kin/elec on live who lived in melee getting mezzed "all the time." One of the last PuGs I was on there was a Sonic Def who was running into mobs before everyone else with no problem at all. I've done alpha strikes on squishies and more so on Controllers countless times. 

[Hjarki]

The concept of 'endgame' doesn't really exist in CoH.

 

In most MMORPG, 'endgame' is the most challenging content that delivers the greatest rewards. But if you want the greatest rewards CoH has to offer, all you need to do is go sit in a Fire Farm - it's a lot more efficient than actually playing the game.

 

Likewise, the traditional candidates for most challenging content - such as Incarnate Trials - are actually quite trivial to beat.

 

So you end up with a variety of make-your-own-fun arbitrary challenges that differ from player to player. As a result, when you're asking about optimal builds, you're going to get different answers based on that particular player's (often unspoken) criteria for what content is worth doing.

 

My personal criteria:

• Must be able to exemplar smoothly across a wide range of levels
• Must be functional in a variety of group sizes from solo to full raid
• Shouldn't require Incarnate abilities to function effectively in non-Incarnate content
• Shouldn't require the use of temporary powers or outside buffs to function effectively
• Should be the best implementation of that particular power set combination

Given the above, some general observations on Stalkers:

• Stalkers will almost always have worse AE damage than other melee AT.
• Stalkers are competitive in single target damage over the span of all melee sets with Scrappers but this competitiveness largely takes the form of a higher floor and lower ceiling. That is, Stalkers transform many 'bad' sets into 'good' ones, but rarely elevate 'good' sets into 'excellent' ones.
• Stalkers lack the ability to tank hard targets such as AV/GM. While they're normally just as good as Scrappers (and, often, Brutes) at mitigating damage, they lack the taunt necessary to control such targets in a group setting.

[tidge]

On 1/28/2022 at 2:16 PM, Hjarki said:

My personal criteria:

• Must be able to exemplar smoothly across a wide range of levels
• Must be functional in a variety of group sizes from solo to full raid
• Shouldn't require Incarnate abilities to function effectively in non-Incarnate content
• Shouldn't require the use of temporary powers or outside buffs to function effectively
• Should be the best implementation of that particular power set combination

Given the above, some general observations on Stalkers:

• Stalkers will almost always have worse AE damage than other melee AT.
• Stalkers are competitive in single target damage over the span of all melee sets with Scrappers but this competitiveness largely takes the form of a higher floor and lower ceiling. That is, Stalkers transform many 'bad' sets into 'good' ones, but rarely elevate 'good' sets into 'excellent' ones.
• Stalkers lack the ability to tank hard targets such as AV/GM. While they're normally just as good as Scrappers (and, often, Brutes) at mitigating damage, they lack the taunt necessary to control such targets in a group setting.

 

I like the lists, and have a few comments:

• All my characters (including Stalkers) have AoE temp attacks (Hand Grenades, Plasmatic Tasers) because eventually they will be running some low level mission (e.g. Frostfire, Positron, Synapse) when an extra AoE to add to the low-level attack chain against a bajillion enemies is just too much fun. This may not be what "efficiently" means, I'm just jawwin.
• re: "Tanking". My favorite Stalker can barely keep aggro, but at-and-above level 25 she doesn't have any problem standing toe-to-toe with non-incarnate AVs (mileage varies for incarnate content, or Recluse' Victory AVs) while the rest of the group catches up. I'm usually TAB-ing and button mashing, but I know that she has taken Boss+ aggro away from Brutes but I think those circumstances are on those specific Brutes. I have a not-as-favorite (but still beloved)  Stalker that had Provoke for a while... and although I can tolerate a less-than-efficient Taunt, there were never any circumstances where it wasn't more practical to simply attack the small number of grouped enemies I wanted to (maybe) Taunt.