Magnitude Function

[Scarlet Shocker]

I have suddenly come to realise that while I'm aware of Mag as a thing in game, I am not sure how it works.

 

I know what I think I know: Holds and immobilizes (maybe some other powers too) have a specific magnitude, or power to do their thing, which is called Magnitude. This magnitude is effectively a determinant of how potent the power is, the higher the Mag, the more it will affect enemies.

 

But beyond that I'm at a bit of a loss. Does it stack? How much does it stack? Is it only the same power that stacks? Do different powers of the same type stack? (Holds stack, Immobs stack etc.) Do single target powers stack with AoEs? Example: I take a Fire/TA troller and cast Ring of Fire (Mag 4) + Entangling Arrow (Mag 3) & Fire Cages (Mag3.) Is my enemy now affected by a Mag 10 Immob?

 

How does Mag affect enemies? I am fairly confident that an AV is not really bothered by Mag 3 holds, but at what point does it stack enough to really affect them? Bosses & Lts also seem to be affected differently but War Wolves seem to get held easily regardless?

 

So yes I've got a whole ton of questions that I don't even know how to ask properly here so any guidance is welcome, but ultimately it boils down to understanding how best to impede the progress and movement and ability of my opponents to hurt me.

[Gulbasaur]

17 minutes ago, Scarlet Shocker said:

But beyond that I'm at a bit of a loss. Does it stack? How much does it stack? Is it only the same power that stacks? Do different powers of the same type stack? (Holds stack, Immobs stack etc.) Do single target powers stack with AoEs? Example: I take a Fire/TA troller and cast Ring of Fire (Mag 4) + Entangling Arrow (Mag 3) & Fire Cages (Mag3.) Is my enemy now affected by a Mag 10 Immob?

They stack. So, if you use a +3 mag hold then a +2 mag hold, you now have a +5 mag hold effect on that enemy. It doesn't matter where they come from - single targe, AoE, different casters etc - it's the magnitude on the target that matters. 

 

To mez a target, you have to get a higher magnitude stack than their protection - bosses have a default protection of 3. If I cast a mag 3 hold on a boss, nothing happens because 3 isn't more than 3. If I throw another mag 3 hold (or someone else does, or I cast a Mag 2 hold or something), the boss is held. You have to get higher than their protection stat.  

 

The second stat that impacts this is their resistance - if an enemy has mez resistance, it makes it wear off faster. 

 

Some enemies have higher mez protection than normal and some have specific strengths. Nemesis enemies tend to have good confuse and fear protection, for example. 

 

Knockback works a bit differently - protection and resistance can both reduce it to knockdown or ignore it completely. If you increase the magnitude, targets get thrown further. 

Edited June 10, 2021 by Gulbasaur

[Doomguide2005]

     Gulbasaur explains it quite well.  One detail to elaborate on with respect to stacking.  The game tracks each power individually.  So in his example of a mag 3 hold followed by a mag 2 the boss is held by the cumulative mag 5 but the game is tracking each hold's duration separately.  And when, for example, the mag 2 hold wears off the boss is no longer held but still has mag 3 worth of hold on him.  If the character hits the boss with the same mag 3 hold and the total mag is now 6 and the boss is again held (at least until that first mag 3 wears off ... )

 

     AVs have what are called the Purple triangles of Death (PotD).  You'll see a graphic of purple triangles moving around the AV.  When those are moving (and pointing) upwards the AV gets a period where his mez protection is boosted by +50 against most status effects.  When they are moving (and pointing) downward that added protection is not active.  Most AVs have boss level protection without the triangles.  Neither Sleep or Immobilize are included in the PotD protection.  This is why having an Immobilize, in particular, is very handy especially against some AVs.

   It is possible to mez an AV through the PotD but you have to stack more than 53 mag and contend with their mez resistance in most cases.  Definitely not a common occurrence.

[nihilii]

AVs have the same passive resistance as bosses, mag3. So you need mag4 (2 standard holds) to hold them... while their purple triangles are down.

That's the second part. AVs get mag50 protection while their purple triangles are up. Coupled with their passive resistance, that means you need (50 + 3 + 1) / 3 = 18 holds to mez them.

 

Purple triangles follow a cycle of 50 seconds up, 25 seconds down.

Also worth noting elite bosses have stronger passive resistance, at mag6. So you need 3 holds to keep an EB still.

This has the interesting side effect of making downgraded AVs that turn into EBs due to the "no AV" reputation setting harder to mez than regular AVs. Because these downgraded AVs keep their purple triangles.

[Blackbird71]

8 hours ago, Gulbasaur said:

They stack.

 

It's more accurate to say that *some* effects stack.  For example, take Tactical Arrow's Ice Arrow and ESD Arrow powers (as of i27 page 1), which include both stacking and non-stacking components:

 

•  Ice Arrow
  • Range reduced from 80ft to 60ft to be in line with other Blaster Manipulation ST mez powers
  • Recharge increased from 12s to 16s
  • Hold changed from Mag 3, Scale 12 to:
    • Mag 2, Scale 10 (non stacking)
    • Mag 1, Scale 6 (stacking)

 

•  ESD Arrow
  • Hold now only applies to robots
  • Hold changed from Mag 3, Scale 8 to:
    • Mag 2, Scale 8 (non stacking)
    • Mag 1, Scale 5 (stacking)
  • Added Stun against all foes (does not override the robot hold):
    • Mag 2, Scale 8 (non stacking)
    • Mag 1, Scale 5 (stacking)
  • Now accepts Stun enhancements and sets

[Scarlet Shocker]

Some great info, thanks guys.

 

How does one defeat the AV's resistance to holds etc? The PTOD - I wasn't really aware of them. I don't even recall seeing them often but I think I've noted purple shield icons rotating round Rommy in the past. Is there a way to reduce their resistance in some way?

 

So... I play a lot of controllers, but usually they've been designed as "all-rounders" - designed to be able to survive, do well in teams, able to solo and cover most functions that trollers have abilities to do.

 

What I'm thinking here is making a troller that has ace holds and immobs for teaming, to lock AVs down for TFs and the like, keeping mobs where I damned well put them. So to that end it's finding two sets that have great holds and immobs, and focusing tightly on them.

 

This is much more of a concept character than a practical realisation but it could be interesting and I'm curious from my own point of view. I suspect I'll have to get two builds IO'd out which is something I don't usually do but hey... what's not to like playing CoH? 🙂

 

So suggestions for primary/secondary powers are welcome.  I have Earth/TA in mind for this, but I'd be really interested in knowing what you chaps think.

[tidge]

9 hours ago, Scarlet Shocker said:

I have suddenly come to realise that while I'm aware of Magnitude as a thing in game, I am not sure how it works.

 

[Blackbird71]

52 minutes ago, Scarlet Shocker said:

How does one defeat the AV's resistance to holds etc?

 

I'm no expert, but I'm not aware of any way to reduce any enemy's hold resistance.  All you can really do is apply more Mag to your holds.  By increasing your recharge bonus, you can reapply holds and such more often, and get more stacking that way.  Also, the Lockdown +2 Mag IO is helpful:  Lockdown: Chance for +2 Mag Hold - Unofficial Homecoming Wiki (cityofheroes.dev)

[oedipus_tex]

The documentation on Ourodev gets way into this. It's here if you want to browse it. https://wiki.ourodev.com/view/Power

 

 

The section on StackType tells us the four possible ways an attribute can be affected when that effect is re-applied by the same caster.*

 

( *"Same caster" is literal. Effects applied by pets and pseudopets normally count as having gotten the effect from the pet, not the player who summoned the pet.)

 

 

 

• For mezzes, Stack is the most common. The mezz will stack with itself.
• Extend is very rare, I can't think of many examples. Ignore is usually used for stuff that adds temporary powers.
• Replace just replaces the existing effect. Replace is the standard used for many self buffs and toggle powers; it basically prevents the toggle from stacking the effect endlessly. Ther are a few mezz powers that Replace rather than Stack tho, like the Confusion in Arctic Air.

 

 

Keep in mind none of these settings have any effect on whether the mezz stacks with mezz applied by other powers, just this power. There is no mechanic I know of that limits interaction between mezzes other than an oddball PVP mechanic that allows a player affected by mezz to ignore all other mezz for a time afterward that is unrelated to PVE play.

 

 

With regard to mezz mechanics, the whole system makes a lot more sense when you look at anti-mezz powers and realize all they do is apply a negative value mezz. What I mean is Protection from Hold is just coded as a -10 Hold. If a character's Hold stat is ever greater than zero, they are Held. Simple. 

 

Players with no powers running have 0 protection to mezz. Minions have -1, lieutenants have -2, bosses have -3. Any combination of powers stacked on each other that gets their mezz table row above zero will mezz them. 

[Ironblade]

4 hours ago, Scarlet Shocker said:

How does one defeat the AV's resistance to holds etc?

Stack more holds.  That's the only way.

Note that the Domination power (Dominator inherent) doubles your magnitude.  Get enough global recharge to have Perma-Hasten and you're on your way.

[Snarky]

You have your known knowns, your known unknowns, and your unknown unknowns.

[Scarlet Shocker]

Good info, thanks people!

[Scarlet Shocker]

9 hours ago, Ironblade said:

Stack more holds.  That's the only way.

Note that the Domination power (Dominator inherent) doubles your magnitude.  Get enough global recharge to have Perma-Hasten and you're on your way.

 

That I did not know.

 

A related question - Lockdown has a Proc; chance for +2 Mag Hold. How does this work? Is it for that power only? how reliable is it? Is it worth slotting?

[Blackbird71]

9 hours ago, Snarky said:

You have your known knowns, your known unknowns, and your unknown unknowns.

 

What about your unknown knowns?  You know, the stuff you know, but that you don't know that you know?

 

1 hour ago, Scarlet Shocker said:

 

That I did not know.

 

A related question - Lockdown has a Proc; chance for +2 Mag Hold. How does this work? Is it for that power only? how reliable is it? Is it worth slotting?

 

It's just for the power it is slotted in (but you can slot it in multiple holds; it's not unique).  As with any proc, it has a chance of triggering, so won't work every time; as stated in the wiki article I linked, it will go off about 2.5 times per minute, so approximately once every 24 seconds.  Personally I find it very helpful.

[roleki]

1 hour ago, Scarlet Shocker said:

 

That I did not know.

 

A related question - Lockdown has a Proc; chance for +2 Mag Hold. How does this work? Is it for that power only? how reliable is it? Is it worth slotting?

The Lockdown +2 Hold proc (and the... Devastation? +2 Hold proc) are decent in a ST attack and make it possible to hold bosses fairly often with one click.  When the proc hits, the hold animation is a ball of electricity as opposed to your usual hold graphic.  It's not AS effective in a hold aura like Choking Cloud (usually not standing in a mob long enough for the trigger roll to hit at random every 10s) but I slot it anyway because when it does hit off an aura, it usually gets most of what's still standing.

[Doomguide2005]

     Basically when the Lockdown hold proc chance occurs it acts like an additional mag 2 hold on the target with a base duration of 8 seconds.  When slotted in a hold which is mag 2 or greater it adds an additional mag 2 and anything with protection of 3 or less will be held.  (And as usual the duration is tracked separately)

[Doomguide2005]

18 hours ago, Blackbird71 said:

 

I'm no expert, but I'm not aware of any way to reduce any enemy's hold resistance.  All you can really do is apply more Mag to your holds.  By increasing your recharge bonus, you can reapply holds and such more often, and get more stacking that way.  Also, the Lockdown +2 Mag IO is helpful:  Lockdown: Chance for +2 Mag Hold - Unofficial Homecoming Wiki (cityofheroes.dev)

    I believe Benumb will do this although you wouldn't catch me on a stack of any holy book swearing to it.  Benumb's 'special' includes a -93.125% to a number of things including Confused, Terrorized, Held, Immobilized, Stunned, Sleep.   The next question then is this resistance debuff itself resisted, effected by the purple patch etc..  Honestly I've no idea but suspect the answer is yes and yes.  

     I also doubt Benumb is the only power to do so but again I don't know.  I'm only familiar enough with Cold to make time and age less relevant 😉

Edited June 11, 2021 by Doomguide2005

[Doomguide2005]

19 hours ago, Scarlet Shocker said:

Some great info, thanks guys.

 

How does one defeat the AV's resistance to holds etc? The PTOD - I wasn't really aware of them. I don't even recall seeing them often but I think I've noted purple shield icons rotating round Rommy in the past. Is there a way to reduce their resistance in some way?

 

So... I play a lot of controllers, but usually they've been designed as "all-rounders" - designed to be able to survive, do well in teams, able to solo and cover most functions that trollers have abilities to do.

 

What I'm thinking here is making a troller that has ace holds and immobs for teaming, to lock AVs down for TFs and the like, keeping mobs where I damned well put them. So to that end it's finding two sets that have great holds and immobs, and focusing tightly on them.

 

This is much more of a concept character than a practical realisation but it could be interesting and I'm curious from my own point of view. I suspect I'll have to get two builds IO'd out which is something I don't usually do but hey... what's not to like playing CoH? 🙂

 

So suggestions for primary/secondary powers are welcome.  I have Earth/TA in mind for this, but I'd be really interested in knowing what you chaps think.

      Outside of using Benumb (or something similar yet unnamed)  high recharge to quickly stack holds is probably any controllers best bet.  And actually that would apply to any character but I wouldn't expect any AT outside of Controllers and Dominators to manage it.  Strictly speaking a perma-Dom is probably the most likely to be able to do this solo but that's still managing to stack 9+ holds on the AV of mag 6 each.  And then there's Power Boost and its ilk to consider since that effects most mez as well.  So ultimately a perma-Dom with Power Boost might be the best overall.  When (or even if) using PB in your attack is more math than I can ... yeah.  (the if coming from does the time used to PB result in too much time not stacking holds etc.)

 

     And in a total tangent is why in the thread about what a hypothetical team composed of our alts @oedipus_tex8 Doms was pretty much the only one that truly worried my Empath heavy team with the potential defeat ... as anything coming up against that would need to be protected against an opening alpha salvo of a cumulative mag 48 hold 😳.  Maybe if I got to spam Clear Mind for a couple minutes pre combat 😜.  And I was probably screwed when a few seconds later when a bunch more followed and like little dominos characters started becoming statues to get crushed.

Edited June 11, 2021 by Doomguide2005

[Scarlet Shocker]

28 minutes ago, 5099y_74c05 said:

Concur. If you want to be more specific I would go Gravity since Singy is a control spammer itself. Mind/ Doms are also capable of putting AVs to sleep, not sure that fits within what is being asked.

 

Earth/TA/Primal would be good for general gameplay but I think @Scarlet Shocker will be disappointed with its potential vs AV. It is one of the better Controller candidates for the tasks.

 

The Experimentation Tier 5 also has minor power boosting effects if I'm reading it correctly.

 

Well I suggested Earth because I've good experience of it, but this thread is interesting me in Doms, an AT I've never really played before.

[oedipus_tex]

Dominators are good but not necessarily the best in show in terms of mezz stacking. It's true they get extra Magnitude from most controls in Domination mode, but the archetype is limited on the number of mezzing powers they get access to. This might seem counterintuitive, but it stems from the Assault and APPs being very light on mezz. 

 

For example, you can build an Ice Blast Defender or Corruptor who holds a boss without spending anything on IOs. Freeze Ray -> any hold from the secondary or APP will do it. In comparison, in all of their secondary and APP choices Dominators have a grand total of one Hold power, Seismic Smash. Seismic Smash is even a lower Magnitude on Dominators than it is on Controllers (its Mag 3 for Doms outside Domination, Mag 4 in, but always Mag 4 for Controllers) so the only thing Domination does is catch you up to other archetypes, not pull ahead.

 

That said, Dominators can still be quite good at mezzing. Several of them get Power Boost style powers that can help a lot with durations.

 

But all of the above is why people say Domination is so important. Most Dominators are actually pretty bad at control when they are outside Domination mode, and given they have little in the way of healing, defense, or debuff, you can see why people go all-in on permadom.

Edited June 11, 2021 by oedipus_tex

[tidge]

17 hours ago, Snarky said:

You have your known knowns, your known unknowns, and your unknown unknowns.

 

Don't forget the known klowns.

[Scarlet Shocker]

2 hours ago, 5099y_74c05 said:

Great points. PermaDom would be required.

 

On the Controller side secondaries like /Poison, /Time, and /TA have ST Holds available to them. These same combos offer some type of AoE Hold too.

 

 

When I've looked at build guides and Controller forums both on live, here and elsewhere, there's an anecdotal consensus that the holds in the Secondary powers are very skippable.

 

Of course, that's largely because most are looking at optimizing Min/Max builds, rather than what I'm doing here so the question is "how good are they?"

 

I've had a love/hate affair with Poison since live but my Dark/Poison troller (which had the hold) was brutal, and it's (her) PVE build wrecked a few "Pro" PVPers in RV on live without being built for PVP, because of lack of resists and I guess at that time a lack of build knowledge to counter her. Sadly that didn't mean I could kill the turrets easily but I digress...

 

At that time, Thugs/Poison was also known as "THE AV Killer" on live but I personally found it underwhelming*

 

This is a long post to say I'd considered the efficacy of 2nd holds - there are no temp holds of value (as Huntsman Strauss found to his cost soloing LGTF) but I have yet to see the value.

 

As to Doms, I was rather looking at Earth/Rad on Mids/Pine but... on paper (incomplete as it may be) it doesn't look good.

 

 

 

 

 

 

*We can be underwhemled, we can be overwhelmed, but at what point are we simply "whelmed"?

[oedipus_tex]

The holds in the Controller secondary sets used to be skippable, but the math involved in proc bombs makes them more desirable. Especially Trick Arrow's Ice Arrow, which animates faster than some actual Controller holds and comes with a boat load of debuff. 

 

I forget all the specific ways Mids miscalculates proc damage, but if these numbers are even close to accurate Ice Arrow hits far harder than most actual Controller attacks. You'd have to worry about Accuracy, but you can build for that.

 

 

 

26 minutes ago, Scarlet Shocker said:

As to Doms, I was rather looking at Earth/Rad on Mids/Pine but... on paper (incomplete as it may be) it doesn't look good.

 

 

Rad is not an Assault set I've ever been able to get into. If concept is part of the issue and you can justify I'd roll it as Earth/Energy. With Energy you can hit Power Up to double the -ToHit in Earthquake and extend the duration of Controls. Energy also has an attack that conditionally saps Hold Resistance from the target.

 

Of course Earth/Earth is also an option, since it also has Power Up, and has Seismic Smash.

Edited June 11, 2021 by oedipus_tex

[Ironblade]

10 hours ago, Scarlet Shocker said:

Well I suggested Earth because I've good experience of it, but this thread is interesting me in Doms, an AT I've never really played before.

I like Earth.  My Earth/Radiation controller has 4 holds and perma-Hasten.

[Scarlet Shocker]

Earth/TA does sound like a good option