Rebuilding rage.

[Lazarillo]

  On 6/20/2021 at 9:45 PM, Haijinx said:

If you gave Double Rage to any other set they would annihilate everything. 

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You can't give double Rage to any other set though, so it's irrelevant.  If it were making the already-best set even better, then a penalty would make sense.  But as it is, it only makes a bad set "okay".  So why is it worth a penalty when no other set gets one?

[DrInfernus]

  On 6/20/2021 at 9:33 PM, arcane said:

I don’t see it that way. I don’t think you’re paying a damn thing in net terms. You get something for your downtime: the best overall self damage buff in the game. If there wasn’t downtime, the buff literally wouldn’t be justifiable, and you could no longer have it because, yes, that’s how balance works. We could give SS Build Up, but I have a sneaking suspicion everyone would suddenly show their true Rage fandom if that was done.

 

 

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Suppose that’s where subjectivity comes into it. Because if the cost overpowers the gain, which it evidently does for many, then that’s not balance either. 
 

But I don’t think anyone believes there shouldn’t be a cost and there shouldn’t be balance. So many options about what the cost should be though. 

[arcane]

  On 6/20/2021 at 9:49 PM, Lazarillo said:

You can't give double Rage to any other set though, so it's irrelevant.  If it were making the already-best set even better, then a penalty would make sense.  But as it is, it only makes a bad set "okay".  So why is it worth a penalty when no other set gets one?

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The penalty balances the damage buff power. Not the set. 

[Lazarillo]

  On 6/20/2021 at 9:48 PM, arcane said:

Damage buff magnitude =/= powerset DPS or DPA or pylon time or whatever you’re getting at.

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So in other words, if you had a set where every attack dealt 1 damage, but had one power that added a proc that dealt 20 additional damage when used, it'd need to have a huge penalty, right?  Because you're applying a massive 2000% damage buff!

[Lazarillo]

  On 6/20/2021 at 9:50 PM, arcane said:

The penalty balances the damage buff power. Not the set. 

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The power is only relevant to one set.  If the set is not balanced, the power is not, and vice-versa.

[arcane]

  On 6/20/2021 at 9:51 PM, Lazarillo said:

So in other words, if you had a set where every attack dealt 1 damage, but had one power that added a proc that dealt 20 additional damage when used, it'd need to have a huge penalty, right?  Because you're applying a massive 2000% damage buff!

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Each power would need to be balanced on its own terms *and* within the set. Not sure what the hypothetical 1 damage powerset argument is doing for the conversation though.

[DrInfernus]

  On 6/20/2021 at 9:41 PM, arcane said:

Alas, I suppose that’s why we have thousands of possible powerset combinations we can create. In case someone likes one and not another or something like that.

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This is true. Plenty of sets I don’t love out there. Only one I really find unplayable though. And when that powerset is a culturally very popular one, I think inclusivity should be a priority. But that’s just me. 

[arcane]

  On 6/20/2021 at 9:51 PM, Lazarillo said:

The power is only relevant to one set.  If the set is not balanced, the power is not, and vice-versa.

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The only purpose of the crash is to offset how much +damage/+tohit Rage does compared to Build Up/etc. If you think Jab/Punch/Hurl need to be buffed, why not say so instead of this confusing argument about their problems being somehow Rage’s fault?

Edited June 20, 2021 by arcane

[Lazarillo]

  On 6/20/2021 at 9:53 PM, arcane said:

Each power would need to be balanced on its own terms *and* within the set.

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And within the set, Rage isn't balanced.

[arcane]

  On 6/20/2021 at 9:56 PM, Lazarillo said:

And within the set, Rage isn't balanced.

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But it would be if we improved some of the crap attacks. So. Let’s. Do. That?!

[Lazarillo]

  On 6/20/2021 at 9:56 PM, arcane said:

The only purpose of the crash is to offset how much +damage/+tohit Rage does compared to Build Up/etc. If you think Jab/Punch/Hurl need to be buffed, why not say so instead of this confusing argument about their problems being somehow Rage’s fault?

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You've taken this far from the point.  Again, the original response was claiming that SS as a set was an example of good balance because of Rage having a penalty that made the set still not measure up to other sets.  SS is weak as a set, and thus should not "require" a power with a penalty to make it good.  That's not "balance."

[FUBARczar]

  On 6/20/2021 at 5:10 PM, Vanden said:

 

If the rest of the set was designed around it, and the 90% of uptime was spent at a higher baseline level than normal, yes. Absolutely.

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Was it though?  Was there a Crash originally?  When did they introduce the End crash?  After that there was the lazy 10 second PIS crash which could be countered with double stacking, And then they made it unresistable.  

 

  On 6/20/2021 at 5:27 PM, Naraka said:

 

Does War Mace, Archery, Fire Blast or Martial Arts have Rage or an equivalent damage buff?

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Well Archery, Fire Blast, etc. have access to perma Soul Drain in addition to Aim...so yeah they kind of do.  

 

Also Martial Arts has Eagle's Claw which gives a damage bonus, and Storm Kick with +def.  Wow a set that doesn't debuff itself.  And like someone else said sets like War Mace, Martial Arts, etc. don't suck w/o their dmg boosters.   

 

All of this points to the terrible design of the current state of Rage.  Rage has nothing to do with Super Strength as a concept, the crash is the antithesis of Super Strength, and it is just bad design for the set and for a power.  The current Rage was a lazy quick fix for the set.  Which is sad because of the iconic nature of SS in the Super Hero genre.  

 

Edit

Don't forget perma Soul Drain on Dark Melee and double and triple stacked Follow Up in Claws. 

Edited June 20, 2021 by FUBARczar

[Lazarillo]

  On 6/20/2021 at 9:57 PM, arcane said:

But it would be if we improved some of the crap attacks. So. Let’s. Do. That?!

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The set would still be bad from a fun-factor perspective (I don't care personally if every power could one-shot an AV, frankly, a power that encourages alt-tabbing is abysmal), but in that case, "balance" could probably be achieved, yeah.  But then Rage would have to be nerfed even harder.  So you'd be okay with that, right?  Granted, I would.  Personally.  Just buff the rest of the set and let me skip Rage (in theory, anyway...frankly, I don't think any power in any set should just be dismissed as a skip power, but most sets have them).  But that's far less reasonable than just making Rage not suck.

Edited June 20, 2021 by Lazarillo

[Vanden]

  On 6/20/2021 at 9:59 PM, Lazarillo said:

Again, the original response was claiming that SS as a set was an example of good balance because of Rage having a penalty that made the set still not measure up to other sets

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No, the original post is that Super Strength is an example of good balance because despite its self buff being heads-and-shoulders above the self buffs in other sets, Super Strength itself isn’t heads-and-shoulders above other sets, but closer to the middle.

[FUBARczar]

  On 6/20/2021 at 9:50 PM, arcane said:

The penalty balances the damage buff power. Not the set. 

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the penalty is the opposite of the theme of the set.  The set isn't Frenzy, it's not Adrenaline Rush, it's not Berserker, etc.  The set is Super Strength and becoming super weak and vulnerable is the exact opposite of Super Strength.  And don't forget it is still a poorly designed power in an unbalanced set.  

[Lazarillo]

  On 6/20/2021 at 10:03 PM, Vanden said:

No, the original post is that Super Strength is an example of good balance because despite its self buff being heads-and-shoulders above the self buffs in other sets, Super Strength itself isn’t heads-and-shoulders above other sets, but closer to the middle.

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If it's the only set that has to take a penalty, then good balance should indicate it'd be above them.  You're all for 0 damage for every TW attack that doesn't have Momentum applied, I suppose?

 

Why does SS, and SS alone, have to pay to be "middle"?

Edited June 20, 2021 by Lazarillo

[arcane]

  On 6/20/2021 at 10:04 PM, FUBARczar said:

the penalty is the opposite of the theme of the set.  The set isn't Frenzy, it's not Adrenaline Rush, it's not Berserker, etc.  The set is Super Strength and becoming super weak and vulnerable is the exact opposite of Super Strength.  And don't forget it is still a poorly designed power in an unbalanced set.  

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Tremendous feats of strength are a tad tiring tho..

[siolfir]

  On 6/20/2021 at 9:42 PM, Vanden said:

 

No, my comment is that Super Strength has the best, longest-lasting self damage buff in the game, yet in spite of that isn’t the undisputed top dog of the melee sets. Instead, it’s more middle, top-of-the-middle. Because it has been balanced.

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Which is why the highlighted statement below is kindof silly:

 

  On 6/20/2021 at 9:33 PM, arcane said:

I don’t see it that way. I don’t think you’re paying a damn thing in net terms. You get something for your downtime: the best overall self damage buff in the game. If there wasn’t downtime, the buff literally wouldn’t be justifiable, and you could no longer have it because, yes, that’s how balance works. We could give SS Build Up, but I have a sneaking suspicion everyone would suddenly show their true Rage fandom if that was done.

 

 

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The set is "balanced" when based on having a permanent Build Up effect. If it was removed for a standard one, then the set would take a straight nerf. Thus, the discussion about the other powers in the set in a thread ostensibly about Rage.

 

 

  On 6/20/2021 at 9:46 PM, arcane said:

It is factually and indisputably the best when averaged over a two minute period or longer with the possible exception of Claws/Dual Blades if activated every 3-4 seconds. I’m going to take the liberty of reading between the lines here though and say your problem sounds like it’s with Jab/Punch/Hurl, not Rage. Am I really wrong?

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Among melee sets, I'll give you. Fulcrum Shift is much better at buffing damage.

[siolfir]

  On 6/20/2021 at 10:08 PM, arcane said:

Tremendous feats of strength are a tad tiring tho..

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And since this came in while I was writing my last post... the point of Super Strength is that these aren't supposed to be considered tremendous feats of strength. They're just how strong you are naturally, so that you lifting a car is like a normal person lifting a toy. That's the argument being made for why the crash doesn't fit the theme.

[arcane]

  On 6/20/2021 at 10:07 PM, Lazarillo said:

If it's the only set that has to take a penalty, then good balance should indicate it'd be above them. 

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No. “Good balance” does not mean Super Strength has to be the strongest set in the game. “Good balance” merely means that, at the end of the day, the various sets perform relatively well compared to each other. Which they do. Maybe not some, but Super Strength is probably closer to the top than the bottom in overall performance, which is a perfectly good place to be.

[FUBARczar]

  On 6/20/2021 at 10:08 PM, arcane said:

Tremendous feats of strength are a tad tiring tho..

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no they are not because they are super strong, it is what they do.  And their feats are not so great seeing as how it's a middle of the pack set.

[arcane]

  On 6/20/2021 at 10:09 PM, siolfir said:

 

Among melee sets, I'll give you. Fulcrum Shift is much better at buffing damage.

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Yes I had that in mind.

[Lazarillo]

  On 6/20/2021 at 10:10 PM, arcane said:

“Good balance” does not mean Super Strength has to be the strongest set in the game.

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Super Strength is the only set in the game that penalizes you for using it.  If other sets are can be stronger and not penalize you, then Super Strength is not balanced when it is weaker and also pays a penalty.

[arcane]

  On 6/20/2021 at 10:11 PM, FUBARczar said:

no they are not because they are super strong, it is what they do.  And their feats are not so great seeing as how it's a middle of the pack set.

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(1) Sometimes. Some of my fav heroes sure get tired. (2) Why is it a problem for a set to not be #1? As long as it’s not one of the worst in the game I sure don’t care.

[arcane]

  On 6/20/2021 at 10:13 PM, Lazarillo said:

Super Strength is the only set in the game that penalizes you for using it.  If other sets are can be stronger and not penalize you, then Super Strength is not balanced when it is weaker and also pays a penalty.

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Back to the semantics around that word penalize. This is going in circles, getting entirely focused on arbitrary opinions, and going nowhere. Have a good day 😉