Rebuilding rage.

[Marshal_General]

I was thinking about SS and about the only thing wrong with it is how rage works. It has some other things that beed a little work I am sure, but that us the major one.

 

I had an idea.

 

Make rage a no endurance toggle. It give you the to hit buff as normal, but the damage would scale like fury, but only for damage taken up to the current buff rage gives. As long as you are taking damage and for a time after you have that damage buff.

 

To be able to double stack it, you would gain a second damage buff based on current health percent. IE the lower your health the higher it gets to the cap.

 

If there must be a penalty for running rage, then it could be resist or defense debuff while you have it toggled on.

 

The idea needs some refining as the second damage buff may be useless or harder to get for some armors and OP or others or for brutes.

 

Its just an idea I had at work. What do you guys think?

[Lazarillo]

It's a neat idea.  But I think just about anything would be better than the current "might as well alt-tab when it crashes" current form.  I don't really even think there would be a need to "double stack" it if you tied it to incoming attacks/damage.  Just scale it fully based on that.  However, the problem they ran into last time was people whining that the changes weren't OP enough, though, so a reasonable approach would probably never gain traction.

[Hew]

They already had an always on toggle/boost click combination solution to rage, and it was massively grr'd at.

 

Really, you will probably never find something that is acceptable to enough people to get it through development work, which is sad.

[siolfir]

My initial thoughts?

 

7 minutes ago, Marshal_General said:

Make rage a no endurance toggle. It give you the to hit buff as normal

This is already a no-go. +20% to-hit buff for free. It has to have an endurance cost to be providing that much to-hit, even with no +damage at all. Just take a look at Power Siphon in KM: it's a 5.2 endurance cost click that provides 7.5% to-hit for 20 seconds with a two minute base recharge rather than being free all the time, and is otherwise similar to this suggestion, except that you get +damage hitting things rather than by being hit. Given that the suggestion requires being hit to function, it isn't going to be effective beyond a to-hit bonus for defense sets.

 

Also, a lot of the complaints about Rage being in Super Strength to begin with are based around "my character is not a berserker/rage-fueled maniac, they're really strong all the time," which means it wouldn't resolve those complaints, and a lot of mechanical solutions have been proposed to "fix" it - some brought up in this thread.

 

I honestly think the +damage for taking damage isn't a horrible idea, but as an add-on to Power Siphon, which is pretty lackluster and needs something else to build and keep +dam stacks up, rather than a "fix" for Rage.

[Outrider_01]

See Fiery Embrace, best example for a click that is short term + damage and on that recharge duration. Maybe less +bonus than current form, but should be able to count on a buff that doesn't nerf the player.

[SeraphimKensai]

Honestly I was one of the people who actually thought the rage update on test server  a year ago was interesting. I agree that Rage needs something, as the -defense effects defense based toons inequitably from resistance or regen based toons. The -9999 Damage never really made much sense to me as well. Here's a thought I just had, why not change Rage so that in addition to the normal smashing damage, the SS character is so angry that they quit holding back so their attacks take on extra lethal damage, at the expense of costing more endurance per attack, you can then ditch the -damage, and the -defense. as if you double stack rage you're getting exhausted way easier to balance out the extra damage, so someone either has to be tactical and slow their attack rate, or risk running out of endurance and detoggling.

 

I would argue all day however on the subject that the rest of the set is not fine as is. There's one power that I have issue with even more than rage, and that is.........

Hurl. Here's Hurl's description: "You are able to tear up a chunk of ground beneath your feet and Hurl it at an enemy. This attack deals moderate damage, and can knock foes back and even drop them out of the air if they are flying. Damage: High, Recharge: Moderate"

 

Let's check that out...Am I throwing a brick? No, I'm tearing out a 1 ton chunk of concrete out of the ground and throw it at the enemy. How is this power not a Targeted AoE?

 

That right there would solve a lot of issues with the lack of AoE in SS. Hell if they did that I'd probably be alright with swapping Hurl and Knockout Blow in the power orders too.

[Hew]

33 minutes ago, SeraphimKensai said:

Honestly I was one of the people who actually thought the rage update on test server  a year ago was interesting.

Here here! It was probably be the only way I would consider making any SS char at all.

[Snarky]

I ran SS/Invul and SS/Will Brutes for a long time.   I currently have two farmers.   One SS/Fire one Rad/Fire. 

 

SS is so annoying to me ar this point that i cannot run it anymore.  We are done. 
 

they will not rework SS.  They will not fix Invul T9.  Sad.  Over it

[Marshal_General]

I admit that the numbers could be tweaked, but if I remember correctly, targeting drone adds accuracy/to hit and damage for a pretty negligible end cost.

 

I was thinking that as you got hit, you got mad and did mire damage and when you reached to first health threshold, you went into Desperate Rage and got the second buff.

[Hew]

12 minutes ago, Snarky said:

they will not rework SS.  

They did. People were very NIMps, and it got trashed.

 

[Lazarillo]

16 minutes ago, Hew said:

They did. People were very NIMps, and it got trashed.

This is likely why they won't bother trying again.  People slammed a straight-up buff.

[siolfir]

50 minutes ago, Marshal_General said:

I admit that the numbers could be tweaked, but if I remember correctly, targeting drone adds accuracy/to hit and damage for a pretty negligible end cost.

 

I was thinking that as you got hit, you got mad and did mire damage and when you reached to first health threshold, you went into Desperate Rage and got the second buff.

"Negligible" isn't none - Targeting Drone costs 0.312 endurance per second. For comparison, Tactics is 0.39/sec and most armor toggles are either 0.208/sec or 0.26/sec, while the expensive toggles, such as debuff toggles or damage auras, tend to be 0.52/sec.

 

If you look at the cost of Rage currently, it's 5.2 end up front and crashes 25 end at the end - assuming you keep it up permanently that's 30.2 end in 121.32 seconds (including animation arcanatime) for ~0.2489 end/sec, so you could try to argue for a 0.26/sec rather than TD's 0.312, but most of the current cost is a crash that can't be slotted for reduction so I'd lean more towards a higher cost, and either way both of those are more than free.

 

And again, one of the reasons Fury works off of being attacked instead of being hit is because of the interaction with defense sets: if you aren't getting hit because your armor set is working, you won't get the damage bonus. This part of it needs to be addressed, especially with the current meta of building for defense whether you started with a defense set or not, because otherwise you aren't going to get much +damage out of it.

 

If you wanted to turn it into a toggle representing "getting more desperate and no longer holding back" you could just roll the to-hit bonus from Invincibility and damage bonus from Against All Odds into the new toggle power, tweak the numbers a bit, and add a click buff (a la Fiery Embrace) for more on-demand +damage at a high endurance cost without worrying about current health or being hit.

Edited June 17, 2021 by siolfir

[Haijinx]

Hahahahahahahaha

[golstat2003]

27 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Hahahahahahahaha

 

Yeah honestly I did this too at first. But changing rage does have merit.

 

Will they ever actually touch SS after the last shitstorm they got?

 

Who knows. But I would not blamed them if they put SS/Rage at the bottom of their 50 thousand page to do list LOL

[KelvinKole]

I really thought we were almost there when they were talking about only double stacked rage having a crash. 
 

I bought a new microwave and it has a setting for popcorn. Gonna go test it out.  

[Snarky]

Some of my oldest and favorite story concepts are SS and Invul Will stuff.  I can write about such things.  But with the exception of a very few they are not Hulk Clones.  So CoH, much as I desperately wanted to ignore the issues and olayed the sets for years, has failed to help me tell these characters super stories.  I have moved on to running some undead, which I can reasonably create in CoV and does inspire me to put pen to paper

 

the fact that this topic hits a raw nerve is all the more reason to never run these again

 

makes a note to shatter a few of the SS builds and yoink all the purples and shield walls off. Havent played them in a year or so

[gameboy1234]

SS and Rage:

 

1. Increase SS base damage.  Reduce the buff in Rage and remove the crash.

2.  Increase SS base damage.  Make Rage a large buff like it is now, but make the recharge unenhancable and remove the crash.

3. Increase SS base damage.  Make Rage into a short duration buff like Aim with even higher +Dam and +Acc and remove the crash.

 

I kinda like the "Make Rage like Fury" suggestion but I wonder if it would be OP (or just wonky to implement) on Brutes.

 

 

[Verfall]

8 hours ago, Outrider_01 said:

See Fiery Embrace, best example for a click that is short term + damage and on that recharge duration. Maybe less +bonus than current form, but should be able to count on a buff that doesn't nerf the player.

I like this idea as a start. Give SS the same basic damage beginning as the rest of the sets to start. No more balancing around rage. Than give it a fury embrace that boosts smashing damage and tohit. When it wears off, give it a damage debuff and tohit debuff of lets say half to 1/3 of the value of the boost.

 

I don't play SS cause of rage, I play it cause its a goddamn superhero staple! Having an exhausting crash after a boost is comicesque, but completing neutering my toon for 10 seconds is just bad game design.

[Xenosone]

The only way id ever make a super strength character again would be if i could get handclap and footstomps recharge down to perma so i could do si do through a spawn.

 

Ss is hampered by rage and being smashing damage. 

[Snarky]

I keep posting here.   Why! ?!   There is no one that wants this thread to die more than me.   
 

 

look. Folks.  There is no shortage of ideas. 
 

there is a complete lack of willpower

 

 

like a person who “wants” to do X in a year.   Looks at all the possible ways to get there.  Then does absolutely nothing for the next year because someone keeps telling them they should just be happy how they are.  
 

the parrot is dead.  It is a deceased parrot.  Bereft of life   Rest in peace.  The parrot is no more.  
 

Move On.  The parrot will not be moving on.  We all should

Edited June 18, 2021 by Snarky

[Dark Dove]

8 minutes ago, Snarky said:

the parrot is dead.  It is a deceased parrot.  Bereft of life   Rest in peace.  The parrot is no more.

 

This will be the bio for my next character, Dark Parrot. Dark/SS tanker.

 

I won't play the character for long though, because SS is unbearable to play with rage crash.

[Snarky]

Dark/SS is an especially bad parrot.  Errr pairing.  The end crash on top of Darks inherent End issues is Brutal.  I only pair Dark Armor with Dark Melee so that i have the End Recovery power.   The to hit debuffs dont hurt either

[SeraphimKensai]

17 minutes ago, Snarky said:

Dark/SS is an especially bad parrot.  Errr pairing.  The end crash on top of Darks inherent End issues is Brutal.  I only pair Dark Armor with Dark Melee so that i have the End Recovery power.   The to hit debuffs dont hurt either

I actually just built a DA/SS Tank but maybe it's my build I haven't had any end issues, but then again all my toons are IO'd.

 

What would the fairest negative penalty be for a rage crash?

Edited June 18, 2021 by SeraphimKensai

[DrInfernus]

My own opinion is that Rage makes super strength unplayable in its current form. 
 

If you don’t use it, there’s nothing special or ‘super’ about super strength at all. If you do use it, the crash means you don’t even have strength for a while, never mind super strength. It’s literally theme-destroying. 
 

What’s the answer? Personally I’d say remove the +tohit and remove the crash. Maybe add a hasten-style mini-end crash if you must. A simple, yet set-defining large damage buff. I mean, why are we over-complicating this?

Edited June 18, 2021 by DrInfernus

[Snarky]

47 minutes ago, SeraphimKensai said:

I actually just built a DA/SS Tank but maybe it's my build I haven't had any end issues, but then again all my toons are IO'd.

 

What would the fairest negative penalty be for a rage crash?

Are you running ALL the toggles?  I am guessing either 1) you are not ...  and as a Tank doable.  2) is the lack of End issues due to Cardiac Alpha or something similar?

 

because if you regular play and level a Dark Armor Tank ir Brute and take the full suite if Dark Armor it is challenging