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Rebuilding rage.


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2 hours ago, siolfir said:

You've said this a couple of times, but history doesn't back you up on it. You can stack Rage with SOs and Hasten and prior to ED - before I started, but when the powerset was designed - could 6-slot recharge and have it up permanently then. If they really wanted it to not stack, they could have set it to not do so as they did with many other powers. So as much as you want to blame IOs (and as many things as you can blame them for) you're totally off base here.

 

 

I'll give you Foot Stomp - it should have a 10' radius for its damage and recharge - but Knockout Blow is an underperforming power based on their own design formulas and using it as an example of why SS isn't nerfed because of Rage is disingenuous at best. It has the damage and endurance cost of a 20 second recharge power, but recharges in 25 seconds for no reason beyond "we felt like it." The only thing it has going for it is DPA, but because the recharge is longer than it should be you can't use it as often to boost the rest of the set. Speaking of DPA, that "pathetic" Haymaker would be the second or third best DPA in most of the other melee sets - it's tied with Pulverize in War Mace, both of which are just above Shockwave in Claws for Brutes and Tankers (which is ahead of the Scrapper version in damage scale/second by a decent amount); it at least follows the formula. Since they actually follow the formulas, the DPA for the rest of the set is on the low end because it's saddled with longish animations to look like you're hitting hard with recharges that mean you're not actually hitting hard.

 

Of course, for Tankers Foot Stomp - while having the same 15' radius - doesn't get the benefit of the increased AoE sizes that Tankers now get and because of that actually ends up accidentally following the design formulas, so I guess it's only Brutes - who get the least benefit from persistent +damage bonuses - who get the benefit from it being larger than it should be. So one power on one of the ATs is better than it should be, one power on both ATs is worse, and people will somehow point to both and say, "See! You have those!"

 

KOB also has a much longer range than most Melee range powers at around 13 feet 

And it has 2 Control Effects, a Hold and a Knock Up 

The Extra seconds aren't always bad with how Procs work.  Sadly Scrappers can not take SS though, who would benefit most from that aspect. 

And it does better base damage than Crushing Uppercut with no combo points.  Which also has a 25 second recharge

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2 hours ago, DrInfernus said:

[...]many players feel renders a set unplayable.

 

image.png

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56 minutes ago, Dark Dove said:

 

This hard factual evidence shows that something like 7,500 characters decided that SS was unplayable, while a paltry 2000 decided to suffer through it that year. CASE CLOSED!

Pretty much.

 

Invulnerability and Super Strength are THEE super hero archetype power sets. By far the most common powers given in comics history. So the numbers don't show that its a good set, it just shows that people get fooled by the name when they're creating their superman clones.

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4 minutes ago, Verfall said:

Pretty much.

 

Invulnerability and Super Strength are THEE super hero archetype power sets. By far the most common powers given in comics history. So the numbers don't show that its a good set, it just shows that people get fooled by the name when they're creating their superman clones.

Also it is a decent set.   I have a 50 SS/Invul i ran for months on Homecoming.  It is not shattered.  I do not play it. I have no plans to play it    My alt account i use to AE PL my alts is a SS/Fire.   I seriously hate that i did that.  I should have made it Rad/Fire.  The delay every two minutes in farming is stupid.  Sets up cascading issues of when to hit buffs and use inspirations.  Like driving with a device in the passenger seat you have to fill with fluid every two minutes.   Like hey, trying to drive here.  Oh wait let me pour crap in this tube here

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7 hours ago, America's Angel said:

 

image.png

Shows people make SS tanks, not that they play them. 🤷🏼‍♂️
 

I’m not expecting anything to change. I’m not demanding. I don’t even want Rage completely changed to meet my hopes. I’d just absolutely love to be given something though to open up a powerset to me that is currently very much closed because of one mechanic. I don’t think that’s even remotely unreasonable.  

 

I’m just giving my honest opinion on the question that was asked, and I’m far from a lone voice on this thread. 
 

 

Edited by DrInfernus
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On 6/18/2021 at 2:43 AM, Verfall said:

I like this idea as a start. Give SS the same basic damage beginning as the rest of the sets to start. No more balancing around rage. Than give it a fury embrace that boosts smashing damage and tohit. When it wears off, give it a damage debuff and tohit debuff of lets say half to 1/3 of the value of the boost.

 

I don't play SS cause of rage, I play it cause its a goddamn superhero staple! Having an exhausting crash after a boost is comicesque, but completing neutering my toon for 10 seconds is just bad game design.

A think this is very common that people do not pick SS because of Rage, instead they pick it despite Rage.  I think most pick SS because it's SS and screams Superhero.  Name's have meaning and Super Strength draws people to it.  Which is weird that someone with Super Strength becomes Super Weak with a Rage Crash, it's antithetical to possessing Super Strength.   They should just rename Rage to Wait-for-it,-Here-Comes-Kryptonite or I-Can't-Hold-My-Bladder or something else to reflect the weakness it inevitably causes.  Having Super Strength is not a product of rage, it's a characteristic of the character.  And that is why Rage should be reworked and renamed. 

 

The best outcome IMO would be a set not balanced around a broken rage.  Personally I like a the idea of a toggle because Super Strength should always be strong.  I would call it something such as Unrestrained.     

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This thread.  Maddening.  The fact that the Dev Team had a mostly complete fix to this (heavily edited adjectives here) problem and killed the idea due to nerd rage is your clue.  Any hope we had for a fix to an iconic Super Hero powerset died that day.  Get out a coffin, dig a deep hole, drop it in. Cover.  Walk away.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Snarky said:

This thread.  Maddening.  The fact that the Dev Team had a mostly complete fix to this (heavily edited adjectives here) problem and killed the idea due to nerd rage is your clue.  Any hope we had for a fix to an iconic Super Hero powerset died that day.  Get out a coffin, dig a deep hole, drop it in. Cover.  Walk away.

 

 

But there is another Super Hero ability, Hope.  Just Like Superman with Super Strength, Superman's House of El symbol means Hope.  People still hope for a good resolution.

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1 hour ago, Snarky said:

This thread.  Maddening.  The fact that the Dev Team had a mostly complete fix to this (heavily edited adjectives here) problem and killed the idea due to nerd rage is your clue.  Any hope we had for a fix to an iconic Super Hero powerset died that day.  Get out a coffin, dig a deep hole, drop it in. Cover.  Walk away.

 

 

It’s the entrenchment I find frustrating. Take my favourite powerset in the game and if some players were saying ‘this is unplayable for us’ and I’d be more than happy to make concessions to make it more inclusive. Sadly, that’s not the case with Rage and it’s quite sad. 

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1 hour ago, FUBARczar said:

But there is another Super Hero ability, Hope.  Just Like Superman with Super Strength, Superman's House of El symbol means Hope.  People still hope for a good resolution.

Did you even read my global name?  My only real hope is that Statler and Waldorf become co-presidents for life of the New American Union.  Sadly, that is not much hope.

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10 hours ago, Dark Dove said:

 

This hard factual evidence shows that something like 7,500 characters decided that SS was unplayable, while a paltry 2000 decided to suffer through it that year. CASE CLOSED!

9 hours ago, Verfall said:

So the numbers don't show that its a good set, it just shows that people get fooled by the name when they're creating their superman clones.

4 hours ago, DrInfernus said:

Shows people make SS tanks, not that they play them. 🤷🏼‍♂️

 

The chart I posted above shows the split of characters at level 50.

 

What this means is that not only is Super Strength the most popular tanker melee set, it's also extremely playable. Because a huge number of players stick with it all the way to level 50.

 

I imagine it's likely the same case for Brutes, but as you can see, the two best farming melee attack sets skew the numbers a bit:

 

image.png

 

(Here's the Brute secondaries, just to give an idea of how much farmer characters  are skewing the stats):

 

image.png

 

So, looking at these charts, it isn't accurate to say super strength is unplayable or unpopular.

 

However, none of this proves that people like rage. For all we know, every single one of those players might hate rage. Unless we poll the playerbase, we cannot say for sure. Because of this, it's important to only speak on our own behalf. Sentences that start with "everyone agrees that..." or "we all know that..." are useless without proof. (Especially on this forum, which has a tendency to be an echo chamber that rarely reflects how things are in-game.)

 

So with that said, here's my personal thoughts on super strength. As someone who mains an ss/inv brute, I think Super Strength is mostly fine. I levelled 1-50 on SOs just fine. And now, at level 50 with IOs and Incarnates, I can drop a Pylon in under 2 minutes and can solo the ITF on +4/8. One of the great things about Super Strength is that Rage boosts the pool/epic attacks, too. I take full advantage of this. Crosspunch is a great attack, and with Laser Beam eyes from the epic I'm putting out -40% res. (Admittedly Gloom is probably better for DPS, or Ball Lightning for the AoE, but Laser Beam Eyes suits my character's theme better.)

 

If I was going to change anything in Super Strength:

  • I'd turn Hurl into a large cone to make up for Super Strength's lack of AoE.
  • I'd also possibly change Rage to have two "stances" similar to how Bio Armour functions. Stance 1 would be the current crash, Stance 2 would have the -20% def switched out for -20% res. (So that defense-based characters didn't pair poorly with Super Strength.) Note: nothing else about the power would change, it would still be a clicky, still buff the same, etc.
Edited by America's Angel
Typos ^^
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1 minute ago, America's Angel said:

 

The chart I posted above shows the split of characters at level 50.

 

What this means is that not only is Super Strength the most popular tanker melee set, it's also extremely playable. Because a huge number of players stick with it all the way to level 50.

 

I imagine it's likely the same case for Brutes, but as you can see, the two best farming melee attack sets skew the numbers a bit:

 

image.png

 

(Here's the Brute secondaries, just to give an idea of how much farmer characters  are skewing the stats):

 

image.png

 

However, none of this proves that people like rage. For all we know, every single one of those players might hate rage. Unless we poll the playerbase, we cannot say for sure. Because of this, it's important to only speak on our own behalf. Sentences that start with "everyone agrees that..." or "we all know that..." are useless without proof. (Especially on this forum, which has a tendency to be an echo chamber that rarely reflects how things are in-game.)

 

4 of those SS 50s are mine.  You can deduct mine out   I will delete them if it gets the Devs to change SS>

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1 hour ago, America's Angel said:

 

The chart I posted above shows the split of characters at level 50.

 

What this means is that not only is Super Strength the most popular tanker melee set, it's also extremely playable. Because a huge number of players stick with it all the way to level 50.

 

I imagine it's likely the same case for Brutes, but as you can see, the two best farming melee attack sets skew the numbers a bit:

 

image.png

 

(Here's the Brute secondaries, just to give an idea of how much farmer characters  are skewing the stats):

 

image.png

 

So, looking at these charts, it isn't accurate to say super strength is unplayable or unpopular.

 

However, none of this proves that people like rage. For all we know, every single one of those players might hate rage. Unless we poll the playerbase, we cannot say for sure. Because of this, it's important to only speak on our own behalf. Sentences that start with "everyone agrees that..." or "we all know that..." are useless without proof. (Especially on this forum, which has a tendency to be an echo chamber that rarely reflects how things are in-game.)

 

So with that said, here's my personal thoughts on super strength. As someone who mains an ss/inv brute, I think Super Strength is mostly fine. I levelled 1-50 on SOs just fine. And now, at level 50 with IOs and Incarnates, I can drop a Pylon in under 2 minutes and can solo the ITF on +4/8. One of the great things about Super Strength is that Rage boosts the pool/epic attacks, too. I take full advantage of this. Crosspunch is a great attack, and with Laser Beam eyes from the epic I'm putting out -40% res. (Admittedly Gloom is probably better for DPS, or Ball Lightning for the AoE, but Laser Beam Eyes suits my character's theme better.)

 

If I was going to change anything in Super Strength:

  • I'd turn Hurl into a large cone to make up for Super Strength's lack of AoE.
  • I'd also possibly change Rage to have two "stances" similar to how Bio Armour functions. Stance 1 would be the current crash, Stance 2 would have the -20% def switched out for -20% res. (So that defense-based characters didn't pair poorly with Super Strength.) Note: nothing else about the power woudl change, it would still be a clicky, still buff the same, etc.

Hurl is fine as a ST range attack.  But...what about that useless crap called Hand Clap.  But then again the players that love Hand Clap would cry, but then again they are probably the same ones that like to use Brawl and miss Bruising.  At the very lest it be made into a Sonic Attack that does -Resist.

 

And your Rage suggestion doesn't change the fact that becoming weak for no legit reason has anything to do with possessing Super Strength.  The way Rage currently exists is anti-Super Strength, it's I am so Strong I become weak because I don't actually have super strength I just get super mad and them super tired.  lulz

 

edit:

Several of those SS numbers are mine, so count them as unplayable.

Edited by FUBARczar
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Here is my SS/Invul Brute I ran as a main when I first got back to Homecoming.  An homage to all my early SS years in CoV.  Thanks to Hyperstrike for the build.  I still have this thing built up in the 1000 toon garage.  fully incarnated accoladed and never played.  I just have no use for a character that cant do damage with a League captain says "All go NOW"

 

You use Punch Haymaker KO Blow and Footstomp.  When you get Rech nerfed you throw in Kick.  Hurl sucks and is only to take out surgeons and flyers.  The animation is stupid long.

 

This Villain build was built using Mids Reborn 3.0.4.7
https://github.com/Reborn-Team/MidsReborn

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Snarky: Level 50 Magic Brute
Primary Power Set: Super Strength
Secondary Power Set: Invulnerability
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Leadership
Ancillary Pool: Energy Mastery

Villain Profile:
Level 1: Punch -- OvrFrc-Acc/Dmg(A), OvrFrc-End/Rech(3), OvrFrc-Acc/Dmg/End(3), OvrFrc-Dmg/End/Rech(5), OvrFrc-Acc/Dmg/End/Rech(5), SprBrtFur-Rech/Fury%(7)
Level 1: Resist Physical Damage -- RctArm-ResDam(A), RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx(7), RctArm-ResDam/Rchg(9), RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(9), StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(11), GldArm-3defTpProc(11)
Level 2: Temp Invulnerability -- UnbGrd-ResDam(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(13), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam(13), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(15)
Level 4: Haymaker -- SprUnrFur-Acc/Dmg(A), SprUnrFur-Dmg/Rchg(19), SprUnrFur-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(19), SprUnrFur-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(21), SprUnrFur-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(21), SprUnrFur-Rchg/+Regen/+End(23)
Level 6: Dull Pain -- DctWnd-Heal/Rchg(A), NmnCnv-Heal/Rchg(23)
Level 8: Knockout Blow -- SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg(A), SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx(25), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(25), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(27), SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg(27), SprBlsCol-Rchg/HoldProc(29)
Level 10: Resist Elements -- RctArm-ResDam(A), RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx(29), RctArm-ResDam/Rchg(31), RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(31)
Level 12: Kick -- FrcFdb-Rechg%(A)
Level 14: Tough -- UnbGrd-ResDam(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(31), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam(33), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(33)
Level 16: Unyielding -- UnbGrd-ResDam(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(33), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam(34), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(34)
Level 18: Rage -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(34)
Level 20: Resist Energies -- RctArm-ResDam(A), RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx(36), RctArm-ResDam/Rchg(36), RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(36)
Level 22: Weave -- ShlWal-Def(A), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx(37), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(37), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(37), Rct-ResDam%(39)
Level 24: Combat Jumping -- ShlWal-Def(A), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx(39), ShlWal-Def/Rchg(39), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(40)
Level 26: Hurl -- SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg(A), SprWntBit-Dmg/Rchg(40), SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(40), SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(42), SprWntBit-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg(42), SprWntBit-Rchg/SlowProc(42)
Level 28: Invincibility -- ShlWal-Def(A), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx(43), ShlWal-Def/Rchg(43), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(43)
Level 30: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(45)
Level 32: Foot Stomp -- SprAvl-Acc/Dmg(A), SprAvl-Dmg/EndRdx(45), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(45), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(46), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(46), SprAvl-Rchg/KDProc(46)
Level 35: Tough Hide -- ShlWal-Def(A), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx(48), ShlWal-Def/Rchg(48), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(48)
Level 38: Maneuvers -- ShlWal-Def(A), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx(50), ShlWal-Def/Rchg(50), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(50)
Level 41: Superior Conditioning -- PrfShf-End%(A)
Level 44: Assault -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 47: Physical Perfection -- RgnTss-Regen+(A)
Level 49: Super Jump -- WntGif-ResSlow(A)
Level 1: Fury 
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Health -- Pnc-Heal/+End(A), NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(15), Mrc-Rcvry+(17)
Level 2: Stamina -- PrfShf-End%(A), PrfShf-EndMod(17)
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run 
Level 50: Agility Core Paragon 
------------

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|-------------------------------------------------------------------|

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1 hour ago, Snarky said:

 

4 of those SS 50s are mine.  You can deduct mine out   I will delete them if it gets the Devs to change SS>

Mine too. Played to 50, game got quicker with incarnates and everyone rolling out their IO builds, and I couldn’t stand my lvl 50 SS tank anymore. 
 

But this is the problem, though, isn’t it? People who currently have what they want dismissing those who don’t with a ‘pull the ladder up Jack and stuff the rest’ attitude. 

Edited by DrInfernus
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12 minutes ago, FUBARczar said:

Hurl is fine as a ST range attack.  But...what about that useless crap called Hand Clap.  But then again the players that love Hand Clap would cry, but then again they are probably the same ones that like to use Brawl and miss Bruising.  At the very lest it be made into a Sonic Attack that does -Resist.

 

And your Rage suggestion doesn't change the fact that becoming weak for no legit reason has anything to do with possessing Super Strength.  The way Rage currently exists is anti-Super Strength, it's I am so Strong I become weak because I don't actually have super strength I just get super mad and them super tired.  lulz

 

edit:

Several of those SS numbers are mine, so count them as unplayable.

Some don't see the need for handclap, I never used it on my SS tanker either.  But its fairly powerful as melee control powers go.   15 foot radius with two control effects. 

 

Plus it works when rage crashed ..

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14 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Some don't see the need for handclap, I never used it on my SS tanker either.  But its fairly powerful as melee control powers go.   15 foot radius with two control effects. 

 

Plus it works when rage crashed ..

Finding ANYTHING to do when RAGE crashes.  Yes.  THat works great until you are trying to badge, I don't know, ANY incarnate Trial.  So you can make a decent (if manic depressive) SS build using pool powers and P2W that will 'get you through' regular content.  It will not be a tight strong build, but okay.  If your concept allows for fits of sugar crash depression.  As soon as the League leader says "Burn the final 2%" and you are on RAGE crash you feel like .....pretty not Super.

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26 minutes ago, FUBARczar said:

The way Rage currently exists is anti-Super Strength, it's I am so Strong I become weak because I don't actually have super strength I just get super mad and them super tired.  lulz

 

It's incredible how people can fixate on the negative. With Rage you have Build Up 90% of the time. It's literally Build Up! There's nothing more Super Strength than having a massive damage buff all the time. If that means a trivial amount of time spent doing no damage for game balance reasons, that's something I'm absolutely fine with.

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2 minutes ago, Vanden said:

 

 There's nothing more Super Strength than having a massive damage buff all the time. 

Do you see ANYTHING at ALL wrong with this sentence?  If the sentence was accurate you might have a point.  However, unless you are selling used cars, you might want to try for just a touch more accuracy.

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1 hour ago, Haijinx said:

Some don't see the need for handclap, I never used it on my SS tanker either.  But its fairly powerful as melee control powers go.   15 foot radius with two control effects. 

 

Plus it works when rage crashed ..

It works they same either way because it does no damage.  It's an ancient power from a long long time ago that the game has left in it's dust.  It leaves the set in dire need for a good attack until level 20.  

 

And hmm let's compare Hand Clap to other T5 Attacks...Whirling Hands, Parry, Siphon Life, Psi Blade Sweep, Ripper, Eye of the Storm, etc.  Hand Clap is the bottom of the barrel.  Same goes for 6 out of 9 powers in SS (and one of the other 3 is broken).  

 

Oh and I bet you defended Frozen Aura doing no damage too back in the day too.  

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10 hours ago, Haijinx said:

And it does better base damage than Crushing Uppercut with no combo points.  Which also has a 25 second recharge

Which actually makes it worse that KOB doesn't follow their own formulas, since they based the recharge on Crushing Uppercut off of Knockout Blow (this was actually stated in the beta for StJ when people questioned why the recharge was so high), which has a longer recharge than it should. Picking a worse power - because it was balanced around the secondary effect of the set (combo level) unlike nearly every other set out there - doesn't help the case.

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1 hour ago, FUBARczar said:

It works they same either way because it does no damage.  It's an ancient power from a long long time ago that the game has left in it's dust.  It leaves the set in dire need for a good attack until level 20.  

 

And hmm let's compare Hand Clap to other T5 Attacks...Whirling Hands, Parry, Siphon Life, Psi Blade Sweep, Ripper, Eye of the Storm, etc.  Hand Clap is the bottom of the barrel.  Same goes for 6 out of 9 powers in SS (and one of the other 3 is broken).  

 

Oh and I bet you defended Frozen Aura doing no damage too back in the day too.  

 

Okay, let's compare their +damage buff powers...

 

You know that straight power comparisons is useless.

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1 hour ago, Vanden said:

 

It's incredible how people can fixate on the negative. With Rage you have Build Up 90% of the time. It's literally Build Up! There's nothing more Super Strength than having a massive damage buff all the time. If that means a trivial amount of time spent doing no damage for game balance reasons, that's something I'm absolutely fine with.

It's not fixating.  It's pointing out how stupid the logic of have 1) a rage crash and 2) have the power be called rage at all.  Neither fit the theme of Super Strength.  

 

And just because it provides a wild buff 90% is not a good argument that the power is good or balanced.  IMO you are making a case that the power is not well balanced, and the disconnect of rage crash from having Super Strength makes it broken.  Which is why I said they should just call the power after some sort of PIS (plot induced stupidity).

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