Nemesis Vengeance bug

[Aaronar]

I've noticed that if I drop too many Nemesis lieutenant's at once their Vengeance effect floors my hit chance, which is to be expected. But only when I use single target attacks. When I use an AoE it's hit chance is still at 95%, completely unaffected by their Vengeance.

[Xiddo]

Shh, don’t tell them 🤫

 

I had assumed, however, that this wasn’t a bug.

I know it does +def but am unsure if theirs is just some positional def (melee and ranges). Not unlike how some PP’s can still be taken down with psi powers.

[Caulderone]

Nemesis Vengeance only adds to Melee and Ranged defense.

https://cod.uberguy.net./html/power.html?power=nemesis.nemesis_lancer_officer_ranged.vengeance&at=lt_sniper

 

This has always been like that.  I guess the original Devs wanted to give us something we could do during this ridiculous effect.

[ZorkNemesis]

Sure enough, Nemesis Vengance adds nothing to AoE defense.  Seeing as how that's been the case for the longest time though it's probably not a bug.

 

[srmalloy]

11 hours ago, Caulderone said:

I guess the original Devs wanted to give us something we could do during this ridiculous effect.

Not really -- if you use a ranged AoE attack, the mobs get the better of their Ranged and AoE Defense, and if you use a melee AoE attack, they get the better of their Melee and AoE Defense. There are only few attacks in the game that are flagged as AoE, but neither melee nor ranged.

[Caulderone]

1 hour ago, srmalloy said:

There are only few attacks in the game that are flagged as AoE, but neither melee nor ranged.

 

Looking through City of Data 2s attack types entries, several of the melee AoEs are tagged melee + damage type, so those are a no go.  Some are typed area + damage type, like Combustion and Whirling Hands, so those would work.  All of the fireball targetted AoE equivalents I just looked up are area + damage type and would work.  All of the ranged cones that I have perused show area + damage type.  The melee cones seem to be split like the melee AoEs.  Some are area (frost, fire breath) and some are tagged melee.

 

So, some sets have something that works and some don't.  Very mixed bag there, indeed.

[ZorkNemesis]

2 hours ago, srmalloy said:

Not really -- if you use a ranged AoE attack, the mobs get the better of their Ranged and AoE Defense, and if you use a melee AoE attack, they get the better of their Melee and AoE Defense.

 

This doesn't make sense, as Rikti Drones have high defense to everything but AoE attacks, and Ranged AoE attacks almost always land against them.  If it was using the higher defense, then Rikti Drones would be next to impossible to hit without overstacking accuracy.

[srmalloy]

7 hours ago, ZorkNemesis said:

 

This doesn't make sense, as Rikti Drones have high defense to everything but AoE attacks, and Ranged AoE attacks almost always land against them.  If it was using the higher defense, then Rikti Drones would be next to impossible to hit without overstacking accuracy.

From paragonwiki: "Every time an attack is made against a target, the game checks the target's total Defense bonus against each of the attack's tags separately. Once the game has those separate totals, it uses only the best one in its calculations that determine whether the attack hits. The important result of this rule is that, for any given attack, Defense buffs only stack when they all have one of that attack's tags in common."

[Burk]

1 hour ago, srmalloy said:

From paragonwiki: "Every time an attack is made against a target, the game checks the target's total Defense bonus against each of the attack's tags separately. Once the game has those separate totals, it uses only the best one in its calculations that determine whether the attack hits. The important result of this rule is that, for any given attack, Defense buffs only stack when they all have one of that attack's tags in common."

I am not aware of any attack in the game that has both the AoE Defense tag and another positional tag. Just because something is a ranged AoE doesn't mean it has the Ranged Defense tag.

[Caulderone]

None of the PCs attacks have both range/area or melee/area.  Looking through them on City of Data v2 can show that.  Several that are PBAoE are actually flagged melee instead of area, though.

 

There was a post a long while back where several Mob attacks had both.  I think they fixed those on HC after that post, but I'll have to try to find a link to the post.

 

The section Srmalloy quoted is correct, but is generally talking about positional vs damage type defense.  The vast majority of attacks have a single positional flag and then one or more damage type flags.  For example, Fireball has area and fire.  The higher of the area and fire defenses would apply versus the fireball attack.  If an attack had area, fire, smashing, lethal, then the highest of those 4 defenses would apply.  But, if an attack like one of those mobs had listed 2 positions, that rule would apply.  But, I can't find a single PC attack that does that in City of Data v2, so this would only apply to any mob attacks that weren't "fixed".

 

edit:  And of course, there are some Mob attacks that lack a position and have just damage type, mostly psionic damage type.

Edited July 11, 2021 by Caulderone

[SwitchFade]

On 7/8/2021 at 6:13 PM, Aaronar said:

I've noticed that if I drop too many Nemesis lieutenant's at once their Vengeance effect floors my hit chance, which is to be expected. But only when I use single target attacks. When I use an AoE it's hit chance is still at 95%, completely unaffected by their Vengeance.

Not a bug, working as intended, as far as has ever been relayed. AoE is how you Dela with veng.

[Vanden]

12 hours ago, Caulderone said:

There was a post a long while back where several Mob attacks had both.  I think they fixed those on HC after that post, but I'll have to try to find a link to the post.

 

I'm guessing you mean this post:

It was a very short list, and they all got fixed a short while after.

[Caulderone]

14 hours ago, Vanden said:

 

I'm guessing you mean this post:

<snip>

It was a very short list, and they all got fixed a short while after.

 

That was it.  My search-fu failed me and I couldn't find it.