Dominators need Illusion Control

[lumberjack jill]

Just what the title says, Doms need Ill Control please! I can't imagine it being any more powerful than it is for controllers who can pair it with radiation control and are total beasts. (I know, I have 1.)

[Arcadio]

Period!

[dangeraaron10]

Some say it wouldn't do much for Domination.

 

I say that's fine, because it doesn't do much for Containment either.  It doesn't need to as it stands on its own. 

 

I support!

[Riverdusk]

You could probably honestly just tweak spectral terror to something that would apply domination (if it can't as it currently stands) and it'd be good to go imo.

[EmperorSteele]

Would you still want it if they took out Phantom Army and replaced it with a control or debuff power?

 

Because I feel that's the major roadblock to porting it.

Edited July 14, 2021 by EmperorSteele
Clarifying sentence

[Riverdusk]

33 minutes ago, EmperorSteele said:

Would you still want it if they took out Phantom Army and replaced it with a control or debuff power?

 

Because I feel that's the major roadblock to porting it.

 

Personally I'd have to say no, as I feel PA is the defining power of the set.  It would be like porting gravity without wormhole or plant without seeds.

 

As to that being a roadblock (because it is overpowered?), I'd have to see numbers that show it would be.  It may or may not put illusion dom in first place for single target damage potential?  Not sure on that.  It'd still definitely lag way behind in aoe compared to say plant or fire (and probably others).  Other sets would still definitely "outcontrol" it as well, imo, so it wouldn't be best there either.

 

Three phantom decoys can only taunt so much, so it isn't like it'd make you some invulnerable powerhouse on +4/x8 compared to what many other powersets can already do (some doms included).  You'd likely still get smushed unless you also had some good personal defense built up.   In those cases phantasm (especially on a dom) would die in about 2 seconds so there goes another good part of your damage. 

 

A controller would still be able to handle a solo AV or GM better in most cases with their support secondary (and likely a powerful -regen), so it still wouldn't be some ultimate AV/GM killer either.  Would still take an illusion/cold, illusion/rad, or illusion/traps controller as best in class for that.

 

So yeah, some may see it as a roadblock, but I'm sure not seeing it.

 

 

Edited July 14, 2021 by Riverdusk

[Mezmera]

I'm on the fence.  I don't know how "Dominator" it would feel with a bunch of pets doing your work with very little aoe control to contribute.  Plus it being such a strong set on Controllers I'd wonder just how strong it could get on a Dom when things like Mind Control is so great on Dom's and meh on Controllers.  

 

I'm content with letting them have their pie on this one.  

 

Now Wind Control, that's a power set already on the Knives of Vengeance in DA.  I'd like that plus whips for my Dom please.  I'll take fresh over hand-me-downs.  

[dangeraaron10]

3 hours ago, EmperorSteele said:

Would you still want it if they took out Phantom Army and replaced it with a control or debuff power?

 

Because I feel that's the major roadblock to porting it.

 

I guess you could always just tweak the numbers.  If they don't have PA, then they don't have Illusion Control so that would be pointless.

[Arcadio]

1 hour ago, Mezmera said:

I'm on the fence.  I don't know how "Dominator" it would feel with a bunch of pets doing your work with very little aoe control to contribute.  Plus it being such a strong set on Controllers I'd wonder just how strong it could get on a Dom when things like Mind Control is so great on Dom's and meh on Controllers.  

 

Mind is only weak on controllers because it has no pet to aid in damage, and no good way to set up containment consistently in an aoe. It's better on dominators because doms don't need a pet for damage and the aoe controls benefit from the high recharge needed for perma-dom. Dominators are in no way generically better than controllers, in fact most controller combos are much more capable of doing hard content than most dom combos.

[Mezmera]

2 hours ago, Arcadio said:

 

Mind is only weak on controllers because it has no pet to aid in damage, and no good way to set up containment consistently in an aoe. It's better on dominators because doms don't need a pet for damage and the aoe controls benefit from the high recharge needed for perma-dom. Dominators are in no way generically better than controllers, in fact most controller combos are much more capable of doing hard content than most dom combos.

 

The AoE hold and confuse each have long recharges, meaning procs fire real well in them.  Confuse has a proc that reapplies another confuse, holds have a proc that adds a +2 mag hold.  Mind Controllers can totally get a lot of the same control as doms and can proc bomb their hold, you just have to be willing to try.  

 

But yeah there's always better performing sets and combos.  Support sets have some real nice things.

Edited July 15, 2021 by Mezmera

[Alchemystic]

11 hours ago, EmperorSteele said:

Would you still want it if they took out Phantom Army and replaced it with a control or debuff power?

 

Because I feel that's the major roadblock to porting it.

 

PA has been stated as the number one reason that Dominators have yet to receive Illusion Control. In it's current state it would be more powerful in the hands of a Dominator than a Controller.

 

The other concern is the lack of Mez powers that would be affected by the Domination Inherent power, since there is only Blind, Flash and Spectral Terror that would contribute to it.

 

So here's a quick idea;

• Replace Spectral Wounds with a sleep power. This reduces the DPS to provide some much needed mez
• Replace Group Invisibility with an AoE sleep power. Dominators arent so focused on team buffs so swapping it for more mez could work.
• Adjust Phantom Army's damage output, or speed up the 'healback' on the illusion damage, or both. With Spectral Wounds removed we dont have to do too much to the DPS element of this power.
• Move Flash higher up the powerset. With the addition of more mez powers it would be fair to push this power further back.
• Remove the AoE sleep element from Blind. With dedicated sleep powers, this is no longer needed.

 

 

Edited July 15, 2021 by Tyrannical

[Riverdusk]

11 minutes ago, Tyrannical said:

 

PA has been stated as the number one reason that Dominators have yet to receive Illusion Control. In it's current state it would be more powerful in the hands of a Dominator than a Controller.

 

 

 

 

 

How?  And how would it be any more powerful vs. another controller set vs. dominator set?  I could make the same argument for many sets that a dom is "more powerful" than a controller of the same sets.  Try soloing an earth or ice controller vs. a dom.  The disparity is huge, I'd argue moreso than illusion would be.   Others have brought up mind control, by the same logic that one shouldn't have been ported to doms either without a nerf.

 

That also brings up a big factor I forgot to even mention in my other post on how it really isn't.  A great deal of controller secondary sets have significant -res powers.  That hugely improves the damage output of phantom army (and spectral wounds, phantasm, etc.).  Something dominators would not have access to beyond a specific power in a specific epic pool (which I'd argue that specific power being in that pool as it stands is more the issue), or a few procs (which in most or even more cases controllers can also use).  Phantom army doesn't care about containment, so that isn't even an issue.  Then there is the extra +recharge a lot of controller secondaries have which makes perma phantom army much easier to achieve.  

 

I actually think a lot of people would surprisingly find an illusion dom a bit underwhelming compared to illusion controllers if it was a direct port.   An illusion dom might be fun to try and I'd probably end up trying one, but still not convinced they'd be better at all.   My current favorite is illusion/dark and I certainly think I would have an easier time handling AV/GM's as well as doing +4/x8 content on that than on any illusion dom I can think of.

 

As to some of your specific suggestions, I think I can safely say adding a bunch of sleep powers would not be a popular way to go. 😄

[Alchemystic]

34 minutes ago, Riverdusk said:

 

How?  And how would it be any more powerful vs. another controller set vs. dominator set?  I could make the same argument for many sets that a dom is "more powerful" than a controller of the same sets.  Try soloing an earth or ice controller vs. a dom.  The disparity is huge, I'd argue moreso than illusion would be.   Others have brought up mind control, by the same logic that one shouldn't have been ported to doms either without a nerf.

 

 

Because the developers have said that compared to other Control powersets it leans too heavily into DPS, which is something that Dominator secondaries already provides.

[Marbing]

53 minutes ago, Tyrannical said:

 

Because the developers have said that compared to other Control powersets it leans too heavily into DPS, which is something that Dominator secondaries already provides.

I still don't see a problem with that though. Gravity Control has some pretty heavy ST DPS built into it and that is on Doms. 🤷‍♀️

 

If the damage is higher make the heal back higher too. 

Edited July 15, 2021 by th0ughtGun

[Alchemystic]

43 minutes ago, th0ughtGun said:

If the damage is higher make the heal back higher too. 

 

That's what I was thinking, yeah.

 

People really don't want a version of Illusion Control without Phantom Army, and people don't want Phantom Army to undergo significant changes, but there has to be a compromise somewhere, but it's what kind of compromise that's been stumping the developers for a while.

[Arcadio]

14 hours ago, EmperorSteele said:

Would you still want it if they took out Phantom Army and replaced it with a control or debuff power?

 

Because I feel that's the major roadblock to porting it.

If it turned out that needed to happen I would want to see some other changes to make it different, instead of just a watered down Ill control.

 

 

[EmperorSteele]

Yeah, the crux of my question was pretty much "People don't want Illusion for Doms, they want PA for Doms."

 

Get Perma PA to get all the aggro, then pew pew away.

 

That's a bit reductive, though. I'm sure Doms would appreciate Superior Invis and Deceive, too.

 

Maybe if anything, get rid of Phanty, make PA the level 32 power, and put another ST control in it's place. A sleep, perhaps?

[arcane]

Yeah, basically we know that it’s either no-PA-as-is or no-Ill-dom. Any ideas outside of those parameters aren’t going to happen.

[oedipus_tex]

IMO lessons learned from Gravity and Mind Control are that "blast" style powers on Dominators belong in Assault sets and not Control sets when ported over. For me, that means a ported Illusion Control would forfeit Spectral Wounds and (probably) Phantom Army to an Illusion Assault set. The resulting Assault set would then be balanced around having Phantom Army (that is, low damage) versus trying to balance Illusion Control itself around a theoretical secondary Assault set. 

 

I think it could work. Spectral Terror would need to Dominate, and there'd need to be an actual control thrown in to replace PA. Any form of AoE Stun or Confuse would work. 

 

[Note in this arrangement you could still play a Illusion Dominator with Phantom Army, but you'd have to roll it as Illusion Control/Illusion Assault. You could also roll Illusion Assault with any other Dominator primary The damage of the Assault set itself would be balanced around access to Phantom Army.]

Edited July 15, 2021 by oedipus_tex

[Marbing]

2 hours ago, EmperorSteele said:

Yeah, the crux of my question was pretty much "People don't want Illusion for Doms, they want PA for Doms."

 

Get Perma PA to get all the aggro, then pew pew away.

 

That's a bit reductive, though. I'm sure Doms would appreciate Superior Invis and Deceive, too.

 

Maybe if anything, get rid of Phanty, make PA the level 32 power, and put another ST control in it's place. A sleep, perhaps?

I would say if you make any changes at all to porting over to Dom it should look something like this:

Level 1: Hypnotize (ST Sleep)
Level 1: Blind (remove AoE sleep effect)
Level 2: Deceive
Level 6: Flash
Level 8: Superior Invisibility
Level 12: Smoke and Mirrors (a small radius PBAoE -perception, -tohit, confuse) *may be a bit too much control, can be worked to be less potent
Level 18: Spectral Terror
Level 26: Phantom Army (increase heal back effect relative to increased damage index on dominator)
Level 32: Phantasm
 

This moves PA down to T8 so you get it a little later, since we are under the assumption it would be more potent on a Dom, and increases the heal back effect relative to the increased damage. It also removes Spectral Wounds entirely, reducing the overall damage of the set. It replaces it with a simple ST sleep for extra mez punch. It then replaces Group Invis with a PBAoE confuse (this is because A) Group Invis will be less effective on a Dom because of the inferior +def they have and B) Doms are generally more focused on control/damage than they are team buffs). This confuse would be slightly less useful given its -tohit component than say Seeds of Confusion or Mass Confusion but would still give the set something to use Dominate off of and help with CC. It doesn't need to be a long duration confuse if that is too powerful and could be replaced with a PBAoE sleep for a softer control if we think that is a better route. Spectral Terror would NOT get domination bonus (much like Volcanic Gasses) because it is a pet and I think that is fair given the other changes above. 

 

Overall I think those changes would help make the best use of the Dominator's abilities without necessarily being overtly OP, AND it still fits the theme of Illusion. I will admit it would need some serious testing to be sure its not over performing, but I don't see a reason why this can't be balanced.  

 

Also, AGAIN, this is IF any changes needed to be made to port it over. I am not entirely convinced yet that changes would necessarily NEED to be made, outside of adjusting the heal back on PA and SW. 

Edited July 15, 2021 by th0ughtGun

[Riverdusk]

1 hour ago, th0ughtGun said:

Level 26: Phantom Army (increase heal back effect relative to increased damage index on dominator)

 

This is what I was thinking maybe is some of the misunderstanding.  If you are thinking the dom damage scaler would affect phantom army, I don't believe it would.  Pets don't tend to be affected by that.  Haunts for example in dark control (probably the closest to temp pets like phantom army) do the same exact damage for controllers as they do for doms.  All the tier 9 pets do exactly the same damage on both AT's.  In all likelihood phantom army's damage would be exactly the same for dom as it is for controller.  Add in without as easy a time to buff it with -res secondary power and in practice dom phantom army would often being doing less damage than the controller version.

 

The only power (along with making sure spectral terror dominates in some way) I think would need to be tweaked is spectral wounds as that doesn't get full containment damage for a controller.  So, the dom damage scaler would make it significantly better of a power than the controller version.

 

If the devs are really the ones afraid it'd be too much dps, they really need to take a look at plant and fire, or even gravity.  Anyway, if that is really how they've responded, it doesn't give me much confidence they aren't going to completely gut it if they ever do port it over.  That's a shame.

[Replacement]

Does anyone have the link handy to Powerhouse' thoughts on this?

 

Iirc, he said the direction he was leaning (this is not set in stone for direction, nor indicative of intent to port) was to actually replace the attacks the phantom army has access to for the dom version.

 

I don't remember the rationale, but it's something that happened. Unless the entire thing was a dream.  Or a Mandela effect event if I can find someone else who remembers this...

[Marbing]

50 minutes ago, Replacement said:

Does anyone have the link handy to Powerhouse' thoughts on this?

 

Iirc, he said the direction he was leaning (this is not set in stone for direction, nor indicative of intent to port) was to actually replace the attacks the phantom army has access to for the dom version.

 

I don't remember the rationale, but it's something that happened. Unless the entire thing was a dream.  Or a Mandela effect event if I can find someone else who remembers this...

I found the following:
 

 

Basically the concern is more around giving Doms an invincible taunt pet to couple with their superior damage (compared to Controllers).

 

Where he says this:

 

Quote

"PA is problematic because not only can it manage aggro too well, but also because it’s basically immortal and easy to sustain perma. The damage is an issue but not as big as the other two factors. It’s the dominators own damage output that makes that a bigger issue than it is for Controllers." 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 15, 2021 by th0ughtGun

[Riverdusk]

35 minutes ago, Replacement said:

Does anyone have the link handy to Powerhouse' thoughts on this?

 

Iirc, he said the direction he was leaning (this is not set in stone for direction, nor indicative of intent to port) was to actually replace the attacks the phantom army has access to for the dom version.

 

I don't remember the rationale, but it's something that happened. Unless the entire thing was a dream.  Or a Mandela effect event if I can find someone else who remembers this...

 

If you mean like lower their damage, but give them some controlling type attacks?  Have to say that is actually an interesting idea.

[Marbing]

9 minutes ago, Riverdusk said:

 

If you mean like lower their damage, but give them some controlling type attacks?  Have to say that is actually an interesting idea.

On this topic Captain Powerhouse said the following:

 

Quote

 

For what it's worth: I agree with the live devs:

• PA is problematic.
• Removing it steals too much identity.
• Got to come up with a version of the power that is re-balanced but still retains identity.

Basically, whenever it happens, they will get A phantom army, but the powers the army has wont necessarily be the same the controller versions get.

 

He also said this:
 

Quote

Controllers dont have offensive secondaries, so this would never work for them, but my idea is to make Dom PA use modified versions of the first 2 powers the dominator has. If it's a Ill/Fire dom, the Decoy would have Flares, Incinerate and maybe also Bind. Their powers would not taunt, though. It would go very nicely on hand with the new mirror theme for Decoys.

Hope this helps.