Dominators need Illusion Control

[lumberjack jill]

I would be fine with removing group invisibility and giving some kind of targeted AoE immobilize. Phantom Army I can't see being problematic honestly. On a Dom you would have to literally center your entire build around recharge in order to make it perma and that is no fun at all but possible. As a longtime Ill/Rad troller player I can tell you that it really doesn't do much damage on it's own, it's mostly for holding aggro. Now, if you wanted to make them similar to fire imps or gremlins for example and make them vulnerable but summoned until defeated I would be ok with that particular compromise. 

[Riverdusk]

1 minute ago, th0ughtGun said:

On this topic Captain Powerhouse said the following:

 

He also said this:
 

Hope this helps. 

 

Thanks.  That sounds interesting as well.  I think losing the taunt wouldn't be too bad, especially if the PA's did get their own control power added.

 

I do find it funny though that he considers getting to perma PA as "easy".  400% total recharge for perma takes heavy IO investment (and I know there is debate on whether or not the game should even be balanced around IO's, but that's another debate), and tends to make you sacrifice a lot of other options.  It is already hard to build up the recharge you need as a dom for perma dom without sacrificing a lot of potential for self defense and/or damage.  Illusion takes even a bit more.  

 

[lumberjack jill]

Perma dom isn't terrible but usually requires perma hasten AND agility alpha so you have to make an honest build for it. No, perma PA sucks very much badly to build for even though it is worth it. According to Mids they already use illusory wounds and I can't find anywhere saying that they actively taunt.

[Riverdusk]

5 minutes ago, lumberjack jill said:

Perma dom isn't terrible but usually requires perma hasten AND agility alpha so you have to make an honest build for it. No, perma PA sucks very much badly to build for even though it is worth it. According to Mids they already use illusory wounds and I can't find anywhere saying that they actively taunt.

 

It is in their in-game power info.  All their attacks have some version of the highlighted.

 

[lumberjack jill]

Fair.  Then yes I would say drop the taunt off of them, or at least reduce it. Or, make them tangible pets and give them upgraded attacks with no taunt. Point is they're giving up on this and there are simple and obvious ways to balance it out.

[lumberjack jill]

So I consulted with one of the absolutely most knowledgeable players that I know, Twisted Visage on his opinion. Here are his responses on how to make Illusion changed up for doms:

 

[Tell] -->Twisted Visage: Thanks! Another question:  what changes would make to Illusion to balance out to be usable for a dom primary?
[Tell] Twisted Visage: less temporary damage, make the AoE hold have -resist, have the phantom army use powers from the attached assault set instead of the basics for variety and utility
[Tell] -->Twisted Visage: What about PA's taunt?
[Tell] Twisted Visage: and/or make enemies that are feared take psi dmg over time if within a certain range
[Tell] Twisted Visage: I'd leave it. Taunt is handy and controlly
[Tell] Twisted Visage: tankers are essentially pbaoe controllers
[Tell] Twisted Visage: so there's a good crossover there that makes illusion feel niche
[Tell] Twisted Visage: if I were to redesign the set I'd make phantasm into a translucent version of the peacebringer tank form and call it a phantasmal killer

[Tell] -->Twisted Visage: Or call it apparition
[Tell] Twisted Visage: have it be ground based instead of flight, and have it work like a soldier mm brute pet
[Tell] Twisted Visage: with SS stomp and ko blow, etc
[Tell] -->Twisted Visage: FYI I'm posting this on the forums.
[Tell] Twisted Visage: a mixture of some of these suggestions (perhaps not all of them) would lend to make dom illusion 'feel' different than it does on control
[Tell] Twisted Visage: could be fun to call it nightmare control
[Tell] Twisted Visage: go with a dark theme
[Tell] Twisted Visage: instead of phantom army, it's Doppelgangers
[Tell] Twisted Visage: instead of Phantasm, it's Phantasmal Killer
[Tell] Twisted Visage: Instead of Spectral Terror it's Cloak of Nightmares (PBAoE toggle fear, with -res and possibly psi dot over time, like World of Confusion but with fear)
[Tell] -->Twisted Visage: OOOH I like that!
[Tell] Twisted Visage: instead of Spectral Wounds it's Waking Trauma or something, could make it a single target sleep mez like in the Mind Set, but that deals damage that is partially imaginary
[Tell] Twisted Visage: It'll have the same 'feel' as illusion, but feel more villainous and allow for dream-based heroes and villains

[arcane]

55 minutes ago, lumberjack jill said:

Perma dom isn't terrible but usually requires perma hasten AND agility alpha so you have to make an honest build for it. No, perma PA sucks very much badly to build for even though it is worth it. According to Mids they already use illusory wounds and I can't find anywhere saying that they actively taunt.

I have never ever used Agility or Spiritual to get to perma-dom. It’s pretty easy really.. you 2 slot hasten and get to that 70-80% in recharge bonuses (easy with IO’s) and you’re there.

[...]

Topic comes up often because it is popular. 

 

I'd love to see a port to doms. 

 

PA is kind of a weird, unique control/damage power. Which makes for the appeal. Too many changes and then you wreck it. 

 

I think removing PA taunt would wreck it. 

 

Lowering PA damage would be fine. Increasing healback would be fine. 

 

Getting perma PA on a dom would require real sacrifices. That's more recharge than I've ever built a dom for. Soft capping defense would likely be difficult. 

 

I suppose the Captains quoted objections relate to the combo of an unkillable tank plus decent dmg.  

 

But honestly. What are tankers right now?

 

[Zepp]

You could adjust the taunt/dps balance on PA to make it work. The problem is that not enough devs understand that Illusion Control's method of control is closer to a tanker than a traditional controller. They "distract" the enemy with illusions, which is done mostly through the use of taunt mechanics. That makes the set perfect for Doms as is. Adjustments to PA's Taunt and/or damage can prevent the set from being OP, but for it to work devs have to accept that Illusion Control does not work the same as any other control set and that is okay.

[dangeraaron10]

I agree with Zepp.

 

Removing or reducing the effectiveness of PA's Taunt strips a vital component of Illusion Control away.  This is primarily how Illusion Control actually controls mobs, by distracting them with the phantoms.  It's different.  It's not the same "1 immob, 1 hold, 1 aoe immob, 1 aoe hold, some flavor stuff" like all the other sets.  If you must, then reduce the damage.  But I would wholly recommend to just add Illusion Control to Dominators as is and see how it performs in a test setting to determine if it actually overperforms.  Much of Illusion's current use in high-end builds is pairing them with secondary sets that floor Regen like Radiation.  

 

Once in a test environment, then see if Illusion's numbers for Dominators could be fiddled with.  

 

I just don't see the reasoning that Illusion can't be a Dominator primary because it's more damage focused when Gravity Control exists, or that it would become overpowered when paired with an Assualt set when it can currently be paired with Radiation Emission or Storm Summoning or what not.  It's fine that Illusion is not a standard Control set that rigidly fits the formula.  Shouldn't we WANT more diversity of playstyles within powerset categories and not one-for-one identical with different effects?

 

I say, so what if it does really good damage?  Would that stop more controlly Dominators from being made?  Would they outpace TW/Bio Scrappers or Fire/Fire Blasters?  That's why I feel it should be ported as-is in a test environment to see if such concerns have merit.

Edited July 16, 2021 by dangeraaron10

[Vengeful Arrow]

[Deleted due to redundancy from posts I hadn't read 😉 ]

Edited July 16, 2021 by Vengeful Arrow

[lumberjack jill]

I know I've posted this here before. I'm still hoping and praying that it becomes a reality. I would NEVER log out of that toon if this primary was available for dominators!

[TheZag]

I believe one of the reasons it hasnt been ported over is because phantom army would make it too powerful.  But the main reason people wanted it was for phantom army.  Most likely illusion control wont be directly ported over.  If dominators get something it will probably be heavily modified.

[arcane]

A damage class having invincible tanks might be a but much yeah. I’d totally support a port that swaps Phantom Army for another AoE mez (probably stun?).

 

Problem is, lots of forumgoers don’t give a damn about balance and will likely make the devs regret it if they try to give doms a gift without phantom army. A 70-page thread of bickering is all but guaranteed 😉

[lumberjack jill]

My ill/rad controller already has perma-pa and can tank pretty much anything. With the rad debuffs illusion is nearly unstoppable even if it isn't particularly fast. To get perma-PA a dom would have a really tough time getting that much recharge into the build so you wouldn't hit nearly as hard after you build in recharge and your defenses. My question is:  has it even been tested for viability by the devs or is this all purely conjecture?

[arcane]

Dominators are the AT most likely to already be built for high recharge since their inherent practically demands it, so they’re actually best positioned to get OP with PA.

[Mezmera]

Agility does not affect the recharge on Domination, just so we're clear.  I do love me some agility though on my doms since they have lots of defense powers that may be a bit low slotted and then the recharge really helps with the aoe controls and soul mastery powers and then there's the endurance mod aspect of the incarnate.  

 

As for Illusion control on doms I'm not sure it'd be a great fit.  It might just be too powerful in some areas and lacking in others (like control).  I know Illusion is real strong on controllers but I have no envy towards it, I'd have no problem if they get to keep their unique power and doms get an altogether new power set like maybe Wind Control or something.  

 

We usually don't see control getting too much alteration going between Controllers and Doms but I'd think Illusion would need quite some alteration.  Just my feeling on it.  I'd rather doms get new unique shinies to them since they are the ones with by far the lowest power set combinations available..

[arcane]

I can only justify Agility or Spiritual on a few things these days. Too addicted to proc damage.

[Wavicle]

Just make the PA more like Haunt.

[Zepp]

I am fine with the idea of making adjustments to the set to make it more Dominatory.

Some ideas that I have seen around that I like are:

• Making PA emulate Dom secondary powers.
• Some adjustments to spooky (converting to cloak of fear toggle, or making mobile)
• Making Phantasm less damagey and more tanky (although I don't like the idea of grounding Phantasm, Having a flying pet is really nice)

 

The main thread among ideas I dislike is the idea that they change the control mechanism from taunt-oriented control to more traditional controls.

[Darkneblade]

How about this?

Phantom Clones : You summon illusionary doppelgangers to torment your enemies.

But it is toggle. They are not immortal though they die if they killed, but since it is toggle it keeps summoning them.

Summon time could be adjusted accordingly so it is not overpowered or weak.



 

[golstat2003]

20 hours ago, TheZag said:

I believe one of the reasons it hasnt been ported over is because phantom army would make it too powerful.  But the main reason people wanted it was for phantom army.  Most likely illusion control wont be directly ported over.  If dominators get something it will probably be heavily modified.

 

If it doesn't have PA on doms, I won't play it as I don't consider a set defining power being missing, being the same set. More power to those who would accept that though. I just would never play it on doms.

[arcane]

45 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

 

If it doesn't have PA on doms, I won't play it as I don't consider a set defining power being missing, being the same set. More power to those who would accept that though. I just would never play it on doms.

Yeah, well, you could argue it needs a new set name I guess, like they did with Darkness Affinity. I’d be more ok with a new set name than with Phantom Army as is on doms, as far as balance goes.

Edited October 8, 2021 by arcane

[BrandX]

I keep hoping for it to be ported, as I have yet to find a Dominator build I truly enjoy and I feel Illusion Primary would be it!

[Clave Dark 5]

On 7/14/2021 at 7:14 PM, Mezmera said:

I'm on the fence.  I don't know how "Dominator" it would feel with a bunch of pets doing your work with very little aoe control to contribute.

Clearly you've never played a Grav Dom ha ha!  Seriously though Singularity does all that.  Ultimately though I don't think a pet would need AoE control - leave that to the Dom so that the Illusions can run amok through the field of held/Confused/Terrorized statues.