Thoughts on potential Robot Bubble changes ?

[plainguy]

Robotics [Focused Feedback: Various Power Changes]

Protector Bots > Force Field

• Protector Bots will only target their owners.
• Only one of them will ever buff, and buffing the owner will result in the owner, and all its henchmen, being protected by the Force Shield.
• Scale increased from 0.75 to 1.3, this is slightly weaker than having the two Protector Bots slowly buff everyone, but at the same time, now both Protector Bots get to benefit from the same buff as everyone else, and don't waste time refreshing buffs on every target they see.

 

 

Protector bots win out because they only got one bubble prior to change but now benefit from the increase, but overall you are loosing .20 in defensive numbers.. Need to do some math to see the changes.  

[Nyghtmaire]

I thought the owner (funny noun to use) only received the benefit of one shield currently. Is that wrong? If the One-Shield-theory is correct, then that’s a benefit to the player with a decrease in defense values to the pets (except tier 2, which would be an increase). I’m not at my computer so can’t check…

[kelika2]

My bot/trap t1/3 are overdef as it is, 50%ish.  but my t2 are like 41%.  not often but that 4% makes me do more work.  Sounds like I will still be overdef after the patch but I am not ganna do math or worry over something in beta.

 

May the forums be damned if I log in with 44% def to all however.

[StrikerFox]

I think it's a good change. Slightly weaker defense wise but time saved from not casting individual bubbles, will be will be spent attacking and healing.

 

The math in my head is saying it will be a -2% def loss, unenhanced, for MM, T1 and T3 pets. Double bubble vs the new single bubble. But Protector Bots will be a +5.5% def gain.

 

I think that free time for Protector Bots to attack is pretty huge. I've watched them bubble before and it's both bots casting FF for 30-40 seconds. Maybe every 3 minutes?

[Maelwys]

Realistically it means that pet defences will be equal. Protector bots were lagging behind.

 

But the flip side is that unless you've got a secondary that has some extra form of defence buff, now none of your henchmen will be capable of permanently hitting the softcap.

 

Example: my Bot/Kin has Maneuvers and an Agility Alpha and both +PetDefence uniques and two +5 level 50 Defence IOs in Protector Bots. The Assault Bot and Battle Drones sit at 40.02% Defence. So with Barrier, they get bumped over the 45% softcap mark permanently.

Without Barrier Running:

With Barrier Running (about to expire, at 119 seconds):


 

These upcoming changes mean that those henchmen on my Bot/Kin will now end up sitting just a few percent shy of the softcap (they'll lose 3.42% defence, so the final total will be 42.6%), which is a little bit annoying for soloing things.

However the Protector Bots will become level with the others (currently they only hit 33.22% defence with Barrier running) and it'll be much quicker to buff up at the start of a mission. My MM themselves will also gain a bit of extra Defence that they don't currently need, so I may be able to drop some set bonus slots and work some extra Damage Procs in.

Overall I suspect that my DPS will rise a bit, but my survivability will drop slightly (at least when not teaming. Multibox duoing etc will be just as safe as ever).

Unfortunately Protector Bots don't pull anywhere near as much aggro as the Drones and Assault Bot, so the survivability buff probably won't actually make much difference to them on this particular MM. Whenever I lose a henchman during a +4x8 farming run, it tends to be a Battle Drone.
 

Edit: Honestly I'm really not sure why they've decided to go this route. Bots/ is a top tier powerset already - surely it doesn't need to buff the master's defence any higher than it already does? If the the goal here is to reduce Bots/ setup time and bring the defence of the Protector Bots into line with the others; then perhaps a better tweak would be to make the Protector Bot bubbles function similar to how the Ember Demon's resistance shields work? e.g. use two effects for the Protector Bot bubbles, one that only targets Robotic Henchmen (AoE 7.5% base defence that stacks twice; call it 'Force Shield') and the other that only targets the player (Single-Target 7.5% base defence that doesn't stack, call it 'Force Shield Owner') --> Job done! 🙂

 

Edited November 7, 2021 by Maelwys

[JnEricsonx]

My annoyance is trying to fit +def into a protector bot.   I mean, it's a pain on the sets that don't have that "extra" power where you can dump all the +def and +res pet IOs, and still put regular procs in,like you can for demons, thugs, necro, etc.

[tidge]

On 11/17/2021 at 4:46 AM, JnEricsonx said:

My annoyance is trying to fit +def into a protector bot.   I mean, it's a pain on the sets that don't have that "extra" power where you can dump all the +def and +res pet IOs, and still put regular procs in,like you can for demons, thugs, necro, etc.

 

I've suggested that the T6 (for all Mastermind primaries) be replaced with something like a Recharge-Intensive Pet (not Henchman) that provides some sort of buff dependent on the primary, but including an Accuracy or +ToHit) which could also take the Global set bonuses. I agree that opting to add the Global pieces to an actual henchmen works against the idea that you can customize the henchmen with slotting of (non-Global) enhancements. I think the game already has assets that could be recycled (e.g. P2W "pet" toggles). I feel that all MMs could benefit from an extra power that helps the henchmen HIT once the level shift comes into play. I grok that the larger number of T1, T2 henchmen is supposed to make up for their lower chances to hit, but this is one of those things (like the endurance penalty) that ends up feeling like a double-whammy when you have to burn slots in the henchmen to add the global pieces.

 

The "Equipment" from the T6 really should just be baked into the Henchmen upon summoning. It is silly to have to summon Henchmen at level 12 and 26 and have to apply a level 6 power to them! On Live, with the first Masterminds it felt really cool to be able to equip those first (T1) henchmen at level 6... but those days are long gone. I completely believe in keeping the level 32 "Upgrade" as is, I simply don't think there is enough content between level 1 and level 6 to worry about "game balance" being broken by giving the level 1 pet the extras provided by the level 6 equipment power.

 

Alternatively, if we could slot the global enhancements in the existing level 6 or level 32 "Upgrade" powers, I'd be happy.

[Koda651]

On 11/29/2021 at 9:31 AM, tidge said:

It is silly to have to summon Henchmen at level 12 and 26 and have to apply a level 6 power to them!

Empathy Defenders can pick up Healing Aura and Heal Other at level 1.  Is it silly for them to keep using those skills at level 50?

[tidge]

 

1 hour ago, Koda651 said:

Empathy Defenders can pick up Healing Aura and Heal Other at level 1.  Is it silly for them to keep using those skills at level 50?

 

It would be silly if they had to use those powers every time they used a level 12 and level 26 power.

[Maelwys]

The benefit of NOT baking the level 6 upgrade power into the henchmen is that you can opt to not use it on your AssBot. That ridiculously bad 'Flamethrower' attack is still a big drain on damage output.

 

Agree Bots can be a bit tricky to fit all the uniques in, unless you're level 50 with bags of inf to spare and have got your Frankenslotting down 100%. They could have doubled the Protector Bot defence and made it unenhanceable; just as they could have fixed it to work with two components like Ember Shield. The current proposal on Beta still feels like a bit of a cludge fix to me.

[Fira]

This tweak changes absolutely everything. I outright switched away from Barrier to Clarion Radial.

 

Snapshot Clarion on the protection shield for 32.5% Def on everyone instead of 12.6% pre-update (*2 on T1/T3). Other benefits optional.

 

They get this as soon as they spawn so that means in my case (/Traps, Auras) replacement bots landing with almost 70% Def right off, which matters for the simple reason that if they died to begin with it's almost always (p >= .09 +- streakbreaker) because ToHit shenanigans are involved and "softcap" is not enough.

 

Pretty sure I've gotten away with situations I never would have before due to this change, notably when stacked Nem Vengs are involved.

[Fira]

Prot Bot's Shield snapshotted with Clarion and disabled (actual solo standby def that way ends up 63.9% and 78.9% AoE, with Traps FF Gen, Maneuvers, and Auras)

 

Same setup without Clarion Snapshot

 

Also i wholeheartedly agree with @Maelwys - it's ultimately very much of a cheese especially considered current state of henchmen running around defensive mechanics, and the buff to resummon recharge.

 

I'm especially concerned by the way it was presented in patch that, much like summon rate changes, seem to put it as QoL. This is not (edit: not *only*) QoL. It's a straight buff values wise, and a mega buff in practical contexts due to the former points.

 

That's why I tried to point it out in focused feedback thread during beta phase. I'm 100% fine with any kind of balance change and direction, but am legit concerned that might have been wrongly done as a pure QoL change without regard to balance impact. Which is especially problematic given it further legitimizes the state of cheese henchmen exist in...

Edited December 10, 2021 by Fira

[kelika2]

On 11/17/2021 at 4:46 AM, JnEricsonx said:

My annoyance is trying to fit +def into a protector bot.   I mean, it's a pain on the sets that don't have that "extra" power where you can dump all the +def and +res pet IOs, and still put regular procs in,like you can for demons, thugs, necro, etc.

Every single one of my masterminds are frankenslotted to high fuck and back.  Hami enhancements make my masterminds playable:

starting with drones because its a package deal:

 

Drone slotting:

2 acc/dmg hamis, 1 blood mandate acc/dmg/end, 1 call to arms: 5% def aura, 1 edict of the master: 5% def aura, 1 sudden acceleration KB2KD

 

Prot bot slotting:

2 acc/dmg hamis, 1 overwhelming force: KB2KD, 2 cytoskeleton hamis, 1 lotg 7.5%.

 

Assault bot slotting:

2 acc/dmg hamis, 1 mark of supremacy acc/dmg/end, 1 mark of supremacy end/resist aura/regen aura, 1 expedient reinforcement: 10% resist aura, 1 sudden acceleration KB2KD

 

Knockback to Knockdown is huge for bots.  instead of knocking stuff out of your Assault bots fire pits, or your debuffs you just bitch juggle everything

The Aura buff IOs make or break masterminds. while the KB2KD enhancements bumped off the AoE def and one resist aura I jammed in everything I could into my bots to max out their acc/dmg/end/def

 

[Fira]

1 hour ago, kelika2 said:

Every single one of my masterminds are frankenslotted to high fuck and back.  Hami enhancements make my masterminds playable:

starting with drones because its a package deal:

 

Drone slotting:

2 acc/dmg hamis, 1 blood mandate acc/dmg/end, 1 call to arms: 5% def aura, 1 edict of the master: 5% def aura, 1 sudden acceleration KB2KD

 

Prot bot slotting:

2 acc/dmg hamis, 1 overwhelming force: KB2KD, 2 cytoskeleton hamis, 1 lotg 7.5%.

 

Assault bot slotting:

2 acc/dmg hamis, 1 mark of supremacy acc/dmg/end, 1 mark of supremacy end/resist aura/regen aura, 1 expedient reinforcement: 10% resist aura, 1 sudden acceleration KB2KD

 

Knockback to Knockdown is huge for bots.  instead of knocking stuff out of your Assault bots fire pits, or your debuffs you just bitch juggle everything

The Aura buff IOs make or break masterminds. while the KB2KD enhancements bumped off the AoE def and one resist aura I jammed in everything I could into my bots to max out their acc/dmg/end/def

 

 

Some things I'd think are worth considering (my take, your milleage may vary):

 * Soulbound Allegiance: Chance to Buildup is absolutely ridiculous in Assault Bot as it procs on hits and gives +100% Dmg / +50% ToHit. It'll often double stack even in practice

   I've heavily questionned the choice of using it just few weeks back when someone pointed it out, but after a better look, there's really not much way around it

 * Switching OWF/Accel between T2s and T3s, OWF in Assault Bot ISMs causes the Flames pseudopets to also proc Knockdown

 * Command of the Mastermind Aura IO is 15% AoE def, and due to the conceptual nature of MM pets, AoEs are deadly, so it's more useful than it seems

 * Protector Bots are End Hungry, but not *that* much and the Cytoskel Defense values aren't actually that good so:

   - LotG Global+5, 2x Cyto+3, Nerve/Agility = 71.22% Def, 75.93% EndRed

   - LotG Global+5, LotG Def+5, Soulbound Allegiance Dam/End+5, Nerve/Agility = 68.26% Def, 41.41% EndRed, 41.41% Damage

 * If the bots are already overcapped defense wise, Sovereign Right 10% Res might have more value than 5% Def from Edict/CtA (personally i just use all 6 Auras)

 * Mark of Supremacy in particular has very good set bonuses with Acc/Rech bonuses at 2 and 3 -- these might be of lesser use on MMs, it can still be very useful

 * You can even double them up by putting 3 each in two powers (could never make that fit decently, though...)

[kelika2]

1 hour ago, Fira said:

 

Some things I'd think are worth considering (my take, your milleage may vary):

 * Soulbound Allegiance: Chance to Buildup is absolutely ridiculous in Assault Bot as it procs on hits and gives +100% Dmg / +50% ToHit. It'll often double stack even in practice

   I've heavily questionned the choice of using it just few weeks back when someone pointed it out, but after a better look, there's really not much way around it

 * Switching OWF/Accel between T2s and T3s, OWF in Assault Bot ISMs causes the Flames pseudopets to also proc Knockdown

 * Command of the Mastermind Aura IO is 15% AoE def, and due to the conceptual nature of MM pets, AoEs are deadly, so it's more useful than it seems

 * Protector Bots are End Hungry, but not *that* much and the Cytoskel Defense values aren't actually that good so:

   - LotG Global+5, 2x Cyto+3, Nerve/Agility = 71.22% Def, 75.93% EndRed

   - LotG Global+5, LotG Def+5, Soulbound Allegiance Dam/End+5, Nerve/Agility = 68.26% Def, 41.41% EndRed, 41.41% Damage

 * If the bots are already overcapped defense wise, Sovereign Right 10% Res might have more value than 5% Def from Edict/CtA (personally i just use all 6 Auras)

 * Mark of Supremacy in particular has very good set bonuses with Acc/Rech bonuses at 2 and 3 -- these might be of lesser use on MMs, it can still be very useful

 * You can even double them up by putting 3 each in two powers (could never make that fit decently, though...)

1.) its too random for me, between travel time and slow bots i just cant justify buildup on any pet besides phantom army

2.) OF bridges the last 30% dmg in prot bots.  with them taking less time bubbling these days its something to consider

3.) I am personally bot/trap, with the current IOs, maneuvers, and force shield, at level 50 all my pets are at 49% def.  sure they dip down when exemplaring but most of the time not a huge deal

4.) with 2 cytos they are at 66.6%, they still drop down to low end if the fight is long enough

5.) see 3, i exemp a lot

6 and 7.) the 10%(superior) rech is all i really want, 2/6 MoS does that.  and for necro/thug/demon with their recharge intensive pets I frankenslot 4/6 Command of the Mastermind and 2/6 edict or call to arms to bridge the rest of the acc/dmg/rech enhancements

[Arbegla]

I would actually argue for the BU proc  to be put in the battle drones. With the -2 level they get, and the fact the BU proc works for all three of them, it helps bridge the cap on higher level mobs.

 

But with your slotting, I can see that being an issue.