Can anything solo LRSF/Miss Liberty TF?

[Bill Z Bubba]

2 minutes ago, arcane said:

That’s an option too.

 

More often used in this world than I care for. <shrug>

[PeregrineFalcon]

53 minutes ago, arcane said:

I think you might be sensationalizing things a little bit.

My post was a tiny bit hyperbolic, without a doubt. And it's quite possible that, due to the constant "game too easy bruh!" threads over the last two years, that I overreacted to your post.

 

However, I still think that my post is accurate. I fully believe that people who try to get stuff nerfed that isn't an issue, for no good reason, when they know full well that it's going to upset people = schadenfreude.

[Bill Z Bubba]

6 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

I fully believe that people who try to get stuff nerfed that isn't an issue, for no good reason, when they know full well that it's going to upset people = schadenfreude.

 

Stating that it's not an issue and there's no good reason to do it is only true for you.

 

It is an issue with regards to game balance and that is, in itself, a good reason to fix it regardless of whether you agree. However, game balance doesn't mean much to many people, like you, and even less when it involves a game like this one where there's absolutely no monetary gain involved and those working on it are doing it in their spare time and, like you, don't appear to think game balance means much at all. Or at least in regards to the definition of balance that I carry around in my head.

[arcane]

11 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

However, I still think that my post is accurate. I fully believe that people who try to get stuff nerfed that isn't an issue, for no good reason, when they know full well that it's going to upset people = schadenfreude.

While I think my vision of game design is almost identical to the HC devs and that it is logically a good one, I am open to the possibility that I am acting out something antagonistic in the process.

 

Fun fact: I keep my forum name and my game name different because frankly the names are associated with such wildly different personalities that there’s something schizophrenic about it. 95% of my forum posts are made while on the clock. A little less than 95% of my in-game time, on the other hand, is spent under the influence of something. The attitudes that follow are a smidge different. I’m not sure that’s relevant, except that you might think I’m less of a douchecanoe if you played with me. Or more of one, that’s possible.

[PeregrineFalcon]

23 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Or at least in regards to the definition of balance that I carry around in my head.

Bill, you know that you and I mostly agree that game balance is preferable and even on what it should be. We've talked about this.

 

The problem is that I just don't see how having a couple of inspirations in my email affects game balance. Everyone can do it. That's balanced. Am I being an idiot? What am I missing here?

[Bionic_Flea]

25 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

What am I missing here?

 

Claiming a single inspiration, or even a few to get over a difficult hump is probably not a big deal. 

 

But being able to have an essentially unlimited supply of the very best Super-duper inspirations, such that one can solo the Ms. Liberty TF in 30 minutes? . . . Yeah, that sounds broken to me. 

 

I wouldn't want to lose the ability to claim a couple of inspirations from e-mails now and then and I really don't care if Elmyder or anyone else can solo Hamidon, or whatever, by using e-mailed inspirations.  But I have to admit that being able to do that is a little wacky.

[Bill Z Bubba]

28 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Bill, you know that you and I mostly agree that game balance is preferable and even on what it should be. We've talked about this.

 

The problem is that I just don't see how having a couple of inspirations in my email affects game balance. Everyone can do it. That's balanced. Am I being an idiot? What am I missing here?

 

And you know I don't think you're an idiot. It's not about what we can all do, it's about what we can do vs the game. I don't see much difference in having 120 huge insps keeping me at all the caps for every tough fight in a TF and a button that wipes out everything on the map. It's only a matter of degree of brokenness.

[PeregrineFalcon]

1 minute ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

And you know I don't think you're an idiot. It's not about what we can all do, it's about what we can do vs the game. I don't see much difference in having 120 huge insps keeping me at all the caps for every tough fight in a TF and a button that wipes out everything on the map. It's only a matter of degree of brokenness.

Ok, fair enough.

So what's the difference between:

1. Teammates buffing me and keeping me at the caps.
2. Multi-boxing and my other accounts buffing me and keeping me at the caps.
3. My Huge Inspirations from my email keeping me at the caps.

What do you have against my Huge Inspiration?!  😄  (Sorry, couldn't resist.)

[arcane]

11 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Ok, fair enough.

So what's the difference between:

1. Teammates buffing me and keeping me at the caps.
2. Multi-boxing and my other accounts buffing me and keeping me at the caps.
3. My Huge Inspirations from my email keeping me at the caps.

What do you have against my Huge Inspiration?!  😄  (Sorry, couldn't resist.)

The fact that the alleged exploit in 3. breaks an explicit cap on the amount of hugies you can bring to an activity. For 1. to compare to 3., you would basically need an exploit that functionally allows a 9th player (or maybe 32 more players) to enter your team’s task force mission and  help you.

 

IOW It’s not about your huge inspirations. Those are indeed comparable to legal teammates numbers 2 through 8. It’s the bypass of the number 20 (or on my hypothetical analogy the bypass of the number 8).

Edited January 5, 2022 by arcane

[Bill Z Bubba]

Just now, PeregrineFalcon said:

Ok, fair enough.

So what's the difference between:

1. Teammates buffing me and keeping me at the caps.
2. Multi-boxing and my other accounts buffing me and keeping me at the caps.
3. My Huge Inspirations from my email keeping me at the caps.

What do you have against my Huge Inspiration?!  😄  (Sorry, couldn't resist.)

 

The difference boils down to game design and balance. We all expect buffs on a full team unless it's a team of 8 scrappers. A teammate isn't using what was originally supposed to be a finite resource. Back in the day, you used what dropped or what a teammate gave you and that was that. An emp defender can set healing aura on auto and as long as they have the end to back it up, we get healed.

I see no difference between multi-boxing and insps in email as multi-boxing isn't soloing and it isn't part of the game design. But if you don't call it soloing, then it's just teaming and it goes back to the last point. I could absolutely crank up a third account and build a blaster on one, with cold and sonic defs on the other two and alt-tab between them to keep the blaster juiced to the nines, but I would not actually consider that any different than loading up on 120 max level insps.

 

Yes, we can do these things. And we can just as easily set arbitrary rules upon ourselves to NOT do these things because they reek of cheating.

 

I don't expect that email storage will ever be changed. But I also see a huge overlap in the venn diagram of those that do utilize amps, insps in email, temps, etc and those stating the game is too easy. I see it because I'm just as guilty of utilizing the tools that MAKE it too damn easy as everyone else.

 

You can make the argument that it doesn't actually matter and you're absolutely correct. It doesn't. This game doesn't matter. Our opinions don't matter. Hell, I can easily make the argument that existence doesn't matter.

 

Right up until we decide that these things should or do matter.

[PeregrineFalcon]

14 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

I see no difference between multi-boxing and insps in email as multi-boxing isn't soloing and it isn't part of the game design.

Ok, setting the salience of existence aside for a moment. Didn't you and I have a discussion awhile back about people trying to discourage certain play styles and how you didn't like that because you feel that it can drive people away?

 

Isn't your stance against inspirations in email and multi-boxing essentially the same thing? Doesn't your stance on this violate your precept of "And it harm none, do as you will"?

 

Look, I'm not trying to be a jerk, I'm asking these questions honestly. I'm horrible at being subtle. If I was trying to be a jerk you'd know. Not that you'd actually care Bill, but others might.

[Pzn]

I've always thought getting insp from your email was unfair so I've opted to just not abuse it.  I don't see why it needs to be disabled when we already have "no inspiration" challenge options.

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 minute ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Ok, setting the salience of existence aside for a moment. Didn't you and I have a discussion awhile back about people trying to discourage certain play styles and how you didn't like that because you feel that it can drive people away?

 

Isn't your stance against inspirations in email and multi-boxing essentially the same thing? Doesn't your stance on this violate your precept of "And it harm none, do as you will"?

 

Look, I'm not trying to be a jerk, I'm asking these questions honestly. I'm horrible at being subtle. If I was trying to be a jerk you'd know. Not that you'd actually care Bill, but others might.

 

It's a valid point.

 

The question is whether all the available cheats are causing harm.

 

Is it a harm to me if the game becomes un-fun to the point that I quit? Nope, not in any real sense. Don't get me wrong, I missed CoH when I didn't have access to it and I'm still a bit bitter that it was up and running for years and I didn't know about it.

 

What I like about accomplishing a Werner rules ITF was that it came down to my build, my tactics and my reflexes. But even THAT was tainted knowing that I wasn't actually fighting +4s due to alpha's levels shift. And I can't turn off the level shift without unslotting my alpha.

 

I absolutely think @Elmyder feels exactly the same way about their MLTF run. They put in the work to make it happen and did it. I can't solo the MLTF. I can't do it because I go into it with those self-imposed and arbitrary rules I mentioned earlier. If I followed Elmyder's rules, I have absolutely zero doubt that I'd waltz through it. Does that in any way harm me? Nope, not in any real sense.

 

So where's the harm in adding a temp power that defeats all enemies on a map? Doesn't harm me. Doesn't harm you. Why not do it? Neither of us have to use it and the ONLY difference between that and utilizing every other cheat is the time it takes to clear that map, so why shouldn't it be added to the game?

 

Or is it possible that some harm IS being done when something is made so easy that it becomes boring and when that occurs we stop doing it.

 

I'm not wiccan. My rule isn't quite the same as theirs. Mine is "Harm no one else, and do as ye will." But often times in reality, we don't get to choose to do NO harm. We end up choosing the outcome that causes the LEAST amount of harm. I would argue that this game has become less fun, so some manner of game-related-not-real-not-that-damned-important-harm occurred, and continues to occur every time it becomes even easier, if the end outcome is people quitting because it's gone past QoL into I-Now-Have-A-Clear-Map-Button levels of stupidly easy.

Again though, if I'm in the minority, and I'm 99% sure that I am, and removing the ability to store 100 top tier insps in email and grab them in the middle of combat causes more "harm" to the community that the initial ability to do so being added to the game caused, then it should be left alone. If it does more good for the community as a whole, then perhaps it should be dealt with.

[PeregrineFalcon]

Wait, you can claim inspirations from your email during combat? I actually did not know that. I don't know why I thought you couldn't claim things from email during combat, but I did. Yeah, I can see where that's an issue.

 

I do agree that the game shouldn't be made easier. And I see your point. I always thought that the real reason that we couldn't access the Auction House inside a mission was so that we couldn't load up on inspirations inside a mission and that the "it won't work inside an instance" was just an excuse. I still think there's no reason to stop allowing people to fill their email with a bagillion things, but I would understand if the devs changed it to not allow email access inside of missions.

 

I guess it boils down to how much effort a player puts into making the game easy. Sure I'll buy Amplifiers when I'm level 1 and they're cheap, they make early leveling more fun and they usually last me until level 20 or so, but I never buy them after that. Too expensive.

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 minute ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Wait, you can claim inspirations from your email during combat?

 

So now you see an issue and want to harm others by changing how the game works? YOU BASTARD!!! 🙂

[PeregrineFalcon]

10 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

So now you see an issue and want to harm others by changing how the game works? YOU BASTARD!!! 🙂

Ok, I deserve that. Clearly I was being an idiot and missing an important point.

 

But maybe now you can see why I didn't think it was an issue?

[Bill Z Bubba]

2 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Ok, I deserve that. Clearly I was being an idiot and missing an important point.

 

But maybe now you can see why I didn't think it was an issue?

 

Yes.

 

Edit: Although, it ain't hard to run out of a mission.... SG port, load up, bamf back in.

 

Edit2: OK OK maybe I'm saying purge inps and levels shifts from the game!

Edited January 6, 2022 by Bill Z Bubba

[PeregrineFalcon]

6 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Edit2: OK OK maybe I'm saying purge inps and levels shifts from the game!

Wait, what?!?

 

See, now we're right back where we started! Quit trying to nerf my characters and just go play the game on Mega-Death difficulty, or whatever it's called.  🤬

 

There! There's the angry emoji I was looking for earlier!

[Elmyder]

fwiw there is a difference between a mechanic that is overpowered and a mechanic that makes the game easy. Inspirations straddle both sides of this, as there are some contexts where popping a few inspirations can largely trivialize the content for minimal effort. But in the most extreme cases that are being called out in this thread, such as chaining inspirations via email in a solo speedrun setting, it is overpowered, sure, but it is not easy, nor is it trivializing content in a way that removes any challenge and by extension fun. Planning the run and juggling the op mechanic in a high speed/high risk situation is what's fun. Well, at least for me.

 

And then there are contexts where inspirations helps players running less powerful builds complete content like a difficult boss in early levels. I won't ignore this just because I play in a bubble of min maxed builds. 

 

Like I said, I personally dislike inspirations as a mechanic, but that is merely a personal opinion. No matter what the state of the game, I'll try to find the best ways to go as fast as possible cause that's fun for me. 

 

1 hour ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Wait, you can claim inspirations from your email during combat? I actually did not know that. I don't know why I thought you couldn't claim things from email during combat, but I did. Yeah, I can see where that's an issue.

 

Yes, my solo mltf time would have not worked if I could not claim insps during combat. I would quite literally be spamming click -> tab -> click -> tab (tab is my keybind ot eat insps) on claim from chracter items at some points during towers/recluse. Although it is pretty op, don't underestimate how mentally taxing it is to concentrate on everything enough to effectively pull this off when you dive bomb patrons on a solo blaster lol. If you or anyone would like to see exactly how the run was done, I have it in an unlisted youtube video:
 

 

[Songseven]

yea i wouldn't have an issue being unable to access email when in combat, in pvp zones and upon entering content.

 

i started playing regularly back in june and when doing hami was surprised to see people explaining if they didn't have EoE's they could /AH

 

handy, absolutely, but yeah, surprising...

[Olly]

 

I've used the mail-in insps for soloing the MLTFs, and in general I think in the grand scale of "things that ruin other people's fun", it's really low on the totem pole.

You have 20 inspiration slots on the tray. Say you use two at a time for 1-minute buffs. That's 10 minutes of buffs. Email will add another, say, 100 insps, or 50 minutes worth of buffs using the same assumption.

• Any team with more than 3 members, that is, "other people" will not need more than the inspiration tray to take down an AV:
  • You're more likely to have the group quit on you rather than taking the time to plan out how to get your email filled with all the insps you and your teammates want
  • There is already the "no insps" challenge setting if people really want it as part of their challenge
  • Better buffs exist (ie temp pet powers, incarnate powers) when you have more than 3 people
  • It will cost you a good amount of influence (say, 100 x 50,000 per large insp = 5 million inf) to use this "I Win" button for one boss

My feel of it, is that it's exceedingly pointless to use the email exploit outside of a very small set of scenarios, of which I can't imagine any that would intentionally involve a team, which, again, is literally 'other people'. So if other people aren't there, I don't think you could ruin their fun. No doubt, it's an exploit, but there are worse in-game mechanics that are easier to enable if you want to change the game for people who are playing it with you.

[Glacier Peak]

Not to mention base empowerments, P2W vendor powers, amplifiers, and pet summons, Winter temps from the elf in the ski chalet, PvP temps (Nukes & Shivans and Longbow/Arachnos Mechs), day job temps... there is a lot of stuff to take advantage of!

[arcane]

Not sure where this idea comes from that something being overpowered isn’t problematic unless another player is harmed. That’s just another shade of the “Don’t like it? Opt out” talking point that is completely detached from how video games are designed.

 

Balance is pursued in game design because it’s a component of good game design. Not because someone on your team might have hurt feelings.

Edited January 6, 2022 by arcane

[Songseven]

yea i agree with many of you, certainly bigger issues than insp use, think its just an easy one to pick on,

 

as i said earlier, been back playing regularly since around june, geared about 6 characters with incarn, 4 of them have been blasters...

[Pzn]

3 hours ago, arcane said:

Balance is pursued in game design because it’s a component of good game design. Not because someone on your team might have hurt feelings.

Exactly why I think it should be left alone.