Accuracy vs toHit. I have questions.

[KaizenSoze]

From the wiki:

Accuracy

toHit

Attack Mechanics

 

I am working on this Night Widow build for difficult content. Dr. Aeon SF, AE801s, etc...

 

My quandary at the moment is accuracy. Widows can take both TT:Offensive and TT:Leadership. I cannot take both, not enough power choices.

 

I understand from the wiki that Leadership provides toHit, which is a fix amount to the "accuracy" of all powers. Accuracy is a little more difficult for me to understand. When is the accuracy multiplier applied? Before set bonuses, only to the base accuracy of the power? Either way the numbers MIDS is showing don't make sense to me.

 

This could also me just not understanding what MIDS is telling me.

 

Example using the power mental blast as slotted in the build:

Mental Blast Accuracy	TT:Leadership	Final Accuracy	Delta
169.2%	14.13%	199.1%	29.9%

Mental Blast Accuracy	TT:Offensive	Final Accuracy	Delta
169.2%	18.33%	183.9%	14.7%

 

Build:

Swap out Leadership for Offensive and put two accuracy pieces into Offensive to get the values in the table.

Spoiler

This Villain build was built using Mids Reborn 3.2.17
https://github.com/LoadedCamel/MidsReborn

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Black Magic Pixie: Level 50 Natural Arachnos Widow
Primary Power Set: Night Widow Training
Secondary Power Set: Widow Teamwork
Power Pool: Sorcery
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Presence

Villain Profile:
Level 1: Mental Blast -- SprSpdBit-Acc/Dmg(A), SprSpdBit-Dmg/Rchg(3), SprSpdBit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(3), SprSpdBit-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(5), SprSpdBit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(5), SprSpdBit-Rchg/Global Toxic(7)
Level 1: Combat Training: Defensive -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 2: Strike -- Mk'Bit-Dam%(A), Mk'Bit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(7), Mk'Bit-Acc/Dmg(9), Mk'Bit-Dmg/EndRdx(9), Mk'Bit-Dmg/Rchg(11), Mk'Bit-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(11)
Level 4: Tactical Training: Maneuvers -- ShlWal-Def(A), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx(17), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(19), Rct-ResDam%(19)
Level 6: Mystic Flight -- WntGif-ResSlow(A)
Level 8: Follow Up -- Mk'Bit-Dam%(A), Mk'Bit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(21), Mk'Bit-Acc/Dmg(21), Mk'Bit-Dmg/EndRdx(23), Mk'Bit-Dmg/Rchg(23), Mk'Bit-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(25)
Level 10: Indomitable Will -- GldArm-3defTpProc(A), StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(25)
Level 12: Spin -- SprDmnofA-Rchg/DmgFear%(A), SprDmnofA-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(27), SprDmnofA-Acc/Dmg(27), SprDmnofA-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(29), SprDmnofA-Dmg/Rchg(29), SprDmnofA-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(31)
Level 14: Lunge -- SprBlsCol-Rchg/HoldProc(A), SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg(31), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg(31), SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx(33), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(33), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(33)
Level 16: Boxing -- Acc-I(A)
Level 18: Slash -- Hct-Dam%(A), Hct-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(34), Hct-Dmg/EndRdx(34), Hct-Dmg(34), Hct-Dmg/Rchg(36), Hct-Acc/Rchg(36)
Level 20: Mask Presence -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 22: Foresight -- ShlWal-Def(A), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(36), ShlWal-Def/Rchg(37), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx(37)
Level 24: Mental Training -- Run-I(A)
Level 26: Mind Link -- ShlWal-Def(A), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(37), ShlWal-Def/Rchg(39), ShlWal-EndRdx/Rchg(39), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(39)
Level 28: Eviscerate -- SprAvl-Acc/Dmg(A), SprAvl-Dmg/EndRdx(40), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(40), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(40), SprAvl-Rchg/KDProc(42)
Level 30: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(42)
Level 32: Arcane Bolt -- SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg(A), SprWntBit-Dmg/Rchg(42), SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(43), SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(43), SprWntBit-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg(43), SprWntBit-Rchg/SlowProc(45)
Level 35: Tactical Training: Leadership -- GssSynFr--ToHit/EndRdx(A), GssSynFr--Build%(45)
Level 38: Tough -- UnbGrd-ResDam(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(45), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam(46), UnbGrd-Max HP%(46)
Level 41: Weave -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 44: Rune of Protection -- Ags-Psi/Status(A), Ags-ResDam(46), Ags-ResDam/EndRdx(48), Ags-ResDam/Rchg(48), Ags-EndRdx/Rchg(48)
Level 47: Provoke -- PrfZng-Acc/Rchg(A)
Level 49: Smoke Grenade -- DmpSpr-ToHitDeb(A), DmpSpr-ToHitDeb/Rchg(50), DmpSpr-ToHitDeb/EndRdx(50), DmpSpr-ToHitDeb/Rchg/EndRdx(50)
Level 1: Conditioning | Hidden
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Clr-Stlth(A)
Level 2: Rest -- EndMod-I(A)
Level 2: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 2: Health -- Pnc-Heal/+End(A), NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(13), Prv-Absorb%(13), Mrc-Rcvry+(15)
Level 2: Stamina -- PrfShf-EndMod(A), EndMod-I(15), PrfShf-End%(17)
Level 38: Arcane Power
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 50: Melee Core Embodiment
Level 50: Barrier Core Epiphany
Level 50: Cardiac Core Paragon
Level 50: Born In Battle
Level 50: High Pain Threshold
Level 50: Invader
Level 50: Marshal
------------
------------

 

 

 

Edited February 14, 2022 by KaizenSoze

[ForeverLaxx]

2 hours ago, KaizenSoze said:

When is the accuracy multiplier applied?

 

It's detailed in the Attack Mechanics section you linked:

 

• Accuracy is subtly different. It modifies an attack's chance of hitting by a fraction of itself instead of by a fixed amount. Accuracy changes how often an attack hits in proportional terms instead of absolute terms.

Example: Consider an unbuffed, unenhanced attack that hits 30% of the time. If it got a +50% ToHit buff, its hit chance would rise to 80% (30 + 50). If it got a +50% Accuracy bonus instead, its hit chance would only rise to 45% (30 + (50% of 30), which can also be written 30 × 1.5).

• Accuracy is applied in a second step, after all ToHit and Defense modifiers are applied.

 

To note, this is also there regarding Accuracy in the case you have bonuses that grant +Accuracy (not +ToHit):

 

• So for players, AccMods is calculated using:

AccMods  =  the power's inherent Accuracy  ×  (1.0 + the power's Accuracy Enhancements + all global Set Accuracy bonuses)

 

For reference, this is the full formula in question:

 

HitChance = Clamp( AccMods × Clamp( BaseHitChance + ToHitMods – DefMods ) )

• BaseHitChance is what the attack's chance of hitting would be if there were no modifiers at all – no Enhancements, no buffs, no level differences, nothing
• ToHitMods is the sum of all ToHit buffs and debuffs (the debuffs will be negative)
• DefMods is the sum of all relevant Defense buffs and debuffs (ditto)
• AccMods is the product of all Accuracy multipliers, and
• Clamp(x) limits x to the range of 5% to 95%

 

• ToHitMods and DefMods are 0 by default. AccMods defaults to 1.

 

Extrapolating the information in reference to your question, you would calculate your ToHit value first. If it's above 95, it's lowered to 95. If it's below 5, it's raised to 5. After that's done, you multiply that number by whatever the power's Accuracy is, which is gathered from all sources of bonus Accuracy (such as set bonuses) and whatever the base Accuracy of the power is (almost always 1, but check the power directly to be sure). If that number is higher than 95, it's lowered to 95. It's also somehow lower than 5 (in the case of powers with 0.8 Accuracy and no bonuses, for example), it's raised back up to 5.

 

Enemy Defense contributes only to the ToHit portion of the equation. If they have some Defense against your attack, that's taken away, 1 for 1, from your ToHit score. This is done before that value is clamped, so if you have... 140% ToHit and the enemy has 45% Defense, your final ToHit is lowered to 95% which is the Clamp Cap so it's like they have no defense at all. If you only had 80% ToHit though, against that same enemy, you'd have 35% chance to hit them. That 35 would then be modified by your Accuracy... say, 50% bonus accuracy, which puts your final chance of hitting that target to 52.5% (35 x 1.5, assuming a standard attack power).

 

In short, Accuracy (not ToHit) is a multiplier of whatever your ToHit value is and comes at the end of everything. Any bonuses to Accuracy (not ToHit) are on top of the usual base of 1.0. You can see what the Base is in Mids for every power under the "Accuracy" label in the power info window. 75% is the 1.00 standard, and if you hover over this value, the popup text will tell you at the far right what it is, assuming you haven't slotted anything. The % value is just a representation of your Final HitChance with all calculations done for you, assuming the enemy has no modifications to their Defense value.

 

You might also want to check if you've set that Gaussian Proc to be active on your sheet. I noticed you have it slotted in Leadership and Mids likes to default to "buff procs" being active. If you have a little yellow button next to the green one on the power name line, click it to turn it off -- that's the proc button. I make this error often regarding Force Feedback and it stinks.

Edited February 14, 2022 by ForeverLaxx
copied wrong info

[Uun]

I think Mid's is confusing things a bit, as the 169.2% includes both enhancements slotted in the powers as well as global accuracy set bonuses. Also, unless you've changed it in options, Mid's calculates accuracy vs. +0 foes (against which you have a base 75% chance to hit). More useful is calculating vs. +3 foes (against which you have a base 48% chance to hit). 

If you strip out the set bonuses, you have accuracy enhancements totaling 82.816% in Mental Blast. Against a +3 foe your hit chance would be 0.48 x (1.0 + 0.82816) = 0.8775. TT Leadership (with no enhancements) adds +10% tohit, making your hit chance (0.48 + 0.10) x (1.0 + 0.82816) = 1.0603 (capped at 0.95). TT Offensive (with no enhancements) adds 10% accuracy, making your hit chance 0.48 x (1.0 + 0.8216 + 0.10) = 0.9255. In short, 10% tohit is better than 10% accuracy. That said, Offensive gives you resistance to tohit debuffs while Leadership gives you resistance to -perception, confuse and fear.

[KaizenSoze]

Thank you. I was confused on where toHit and accuracy was applied in the formula. Side note, I always check for the Gaussian Proc, since it distorts the values so much.

 

Since, toHit is added where it is in the formula it has a bigger impact on the final "accuracy".

 

Leadership it is, because I need as much tohit as I can cram in, plus the perception and status resists.

 

TT:Offensive is nice for COT and Carnies. I can fight 2-3 Death Mages in melee and not miss. Carnies's dark servant is neutralized by the power.

 

Alas, sacrifices have to be made to the build gods. 🙂

[Snarky]

Chase +Accuracy bonuses in enhancement sets whenever you can get them.  Use a Kismet: Accuracy unique enhancer EVERY time you can.  The math will work itself out.

[ForeverLaxx]

16 minutes ago, Snarky said:

Kismet: Accuracy unique

 

Worth noting that this is actually a ToHit bonus and not an Accuracy bonus, despite the name, so it's better than it first appears.

[Zeraphia]

43 minutes ago, Snarky said:

Chase +Accuracy bonuses in enhancement sets whenever you can get them.  Use a Kismet: Accuracy unique enhancer EVERY time you can.  The math will work itself out.

Disagree/agree, it's situational and not an "everytime" thing. For example, if you have a Blaster and took Aim and Buildup and your powers naturally all have very high accuracy enhancements, you're at a 95% chance to hit just everything in the game at all times regardless. 

 

But if you're say a Tanker/Scrapper/Melee AT (non-VEAT) without leadership, the benefits are quite considerable as you point out!

[Snarky]

Just now, Zeraphia said:

Disagree/agree, it's situational and not an "everytime" thing. For example, if you have a Blaster and took Aim and Buildup and your powers naturally all have very high accuracy enhancements, you're at a 95% chance to hit just everything in the game at all times regardless. 

 

But if you're say a Tanker/Scrapper/Melee AT (non-VEAT) without leadership, the benefits are quite considerable as you point out!

Everything?  I am curious.  Seriously.  So when players set at +4 and you are facing 50+4 mobs....or 50+5!  or Relentless Dr.  Aeon, or Really Hard Way Magisterium....you still have a 95% chance to hit?  I honestly assumed you needed more accuracy in those situations.

[Doomguide2005]

It is almost always better to chase To Hit buffs than Accuracy if trying to improve your final hit chance.  On the otherhand it is easier in general to acquire more Accuracy than To Hit.  Accuracy is a fairly common set bonus (often with 4 of the set) and rarely found in powers.  To Hit is almost never a set bonus and almost always provided by using powers.

[KaizenSoze]

20 minutes ago, Snarky said:

Everything?  I am curious.  Seriously.  So when players set at +4 and you are facing 50+4 mobs....or 50+5!  or Relentless Dr.  Aeon, or Really Hard Way Magisterium....you still have a 95% chance to hit?  I honestly assumed you needed more accuracy in those situations.

I will say w/o a team you'll notice a lack of accuracy against 801s.

 

ITFs if you're soloing also needs more accuracy.

[Doomguide2005]

24 minutes ago, Snarky said:

Everything?  I am curious.  Seriously.  So when players set at +4 and you are facing 50+4 mobs....or 50+5!  or Relentless Dr.  Aeon, or Really Hard Way Magisterium....you still have a 95% chance to hit?  I honestly assumed you needed more accuracy in those situations.

     In general those mobs are harder to hit owing to your reduced base to hit.  Versus a +0 players have a base 75% chance to hit.  Versus a +4 that base chance has fallen from 75% to 39%.  It's like all the foes just picked up +36 defense to everything.  Both Accuracy and To Hit can get you to 95% last hit chance.  You need about 2.5 net accuracy to get to 95%.  That 250% in primarily set bonuses.  Teammates can't help you do that.  You need +56 in To Hit to reach 95%.  Teammates can help with that.  Support ATs running Tactics can get you there easily (about 4 characters running Tactics will do it).  3 Fortitude's can get you there ... two Empaths running Tactics and using Fort will put the whole team there and then some.  

 

Edit:  It'll get even more important vs Aeon or in 801.  Those +4 foes on Relentless have added 30 defense to the mix.  That puts you at an effective 9% base to hit.  You really want To Hit at that point as the amount of Accuracy you'd need is now over 1000% or 10.0.

Edited February 14, 2022 by Doomguide2005

[Snarky]

This has been a wonderfully helpful topic.  thank you to all.  I just rebuilt my 'Tank" alt build on my Brute to drop leadership: Assault for Leadership: Tactics, and squeezed on a Kismet.  ( I have it on my 'main' build for the character but thought it less important as a taunter.)  Good stuff!

[Mezmera]

3 hours ago, Snarky said:

Everything?  I am curious.  Seriously.  So when players set at +4 and you are facing 50+4 mobs....or 50+5!  or Relentless Dr.  Aeon, or Really Hard Way Magisterium....you still have a 95% chance to hit?  I honestly assumed you needed more accuracy in those situations.

 

Relentless Aeon the baddies see an inherent buff to their Defense, To hit, Resistance and Damage of 30%.  You miss a lot if you're not surrounded by teammates feeding your tohitt with stacking tactics. 

 

If I'm off solo on my dom I'll wait to use my best aoe controls after I reclick Domination since it gives a 25% tohitt buff for 15s, it's real noticeable how much I miss if I'm alone and don't wait to reclick Domination first compared to how many targets I hit when I do wait to use my control after Domination.  

 

I agree though Kismet is more beneficial in different situations.  If you have an extra slot and want to save one of your pools you can slot the Kismet for half of what you get from tactics.  This whole topic is why my tank has Focused Accuracy.  It gives only 6% tohitt which is the same as Kismet but it also gives all of your powers 20% more accuracy, you get high perception and high resistance to tohitt debuffs.  This saves me from venturing into the Leadership pool so I can use the extra available pool on something else.

Edited February 14, 2022 by Mezmera

[Bill Z Bubba]

15 minutes ago, Mezmera said:

This saves me from venturing into the Leadership pool so I can use the extra available pool on something else.

 

But that end cost... as I typically build for indefinite sustainability, every time I've taken FocAcc, I've had to steal all manner of slots from elsewhere to get more recovery/reduction to cover it.

[Mezmera]

29 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

But that end cost... as I typically build for indefinite sustainability, every time I've taken FocAcc, I've had to steal all manner of slots from elsewhere to get more recovery/reduction to cover it.

 

Well that pool does come with Conserve Power and Physical Perfection.  Which I haven't either on my tank but I do run Focused Accuracy without issue even with the high endurance cost.  

 

Having an extra pool available allows my tank to take the Force of Will pool then which I can get a nice little power in Unleash Potential.  So if I'm ever having endurance issues I'll have this power in my pocket for huge recovery along with high defense values and regen.  

[KaizenSoze]

8 minutes ago, Mezmera said:

 

Well that pool does come with Conserve Power and Physical Perfection.  Which I haven't either on my tank but I do run Focused Accuracy without issue even with the high endurance cost.  

 

Having an extra pool available allows my tank to take the Force of Will pool then which I can get a nice little power in Unleash Potential.  So if I'm ever having endurance issues I'll have this power in my pocket for huge recovery along with high defense values and regen.  

Focus Accuracy is a great power with a high cost. The rest of pool compensates for it for the cost.

 

I have respec'ed into it several times after fights with multiple death mages. Fixed that problem right quick. 

[macskull]

16 minutes ago, KaizenSoze said:

Focus Accuracy is a great power with a high cost. The rest of pool compensates for it for the cost.

 

I have respec'ed into it several times after fights with multiple death mages. Fixed that problem right quick. 

I dunno, it's a stupid high end cost for a small acc and tohit buff. The tohit debuff resistance is nice I suppose, but 99 times out of 100 you're better off just taking Tactics. FA might've been worth it back when it was a straight tohit buff, but it's been kind of underwhelming ever since.

Edited February 14, 2022 by macskull

[Doomguide2005]

13 minutes ago, macskull said:

I dunno, it's a stupid high end cost for a small acc and tohit buff. The tohit debuff resistance is nice I suppose, but 99 times out of 100 you're better off just taking Tactics. FA might've been worth it back when it was a straight tohit buff, but it's been kind of underwhelming ever since.

Few thoughts

First notice Death Mages.  It has been awhile but don't they debuff To Hit?

Second it's 5% plus acc vs 7% on scrappers so I'm thinking which is better depends a bit on what you're fighting as a Scrapper.  If it's a significant to hit debuffer the FA might pay for that end with less missing ... maybe.  But for something like the ITF the raw To Hit of Tactics is likely a much better investment vs Phalanx Fighting etc.

[Mezmera]

26 minutes ago, macskull said:

I dunno, it's a stupid high end cost for a small acc and tohit buff. The tohit debuff resistance is nice I suppose, but 99 times out of 100 you're better off just taking Tactics. FA might've been worth it back when it was a straight tohit buff, but it's been kind of underwhelming ever since.

 

Pretty true but that's why I said it frees up a whole other pool for a power that in most regards equates to be about as good as tactics, each having their plus and minuses.  The debuff resistance is very good though. The only other real good utility tanker epic pool would be dark for Gloom and Darkest Night which are both real nice powers.

 

There's quite a few powers you need to fit in to be the reliable tank for a relentless Aeon.  Getting a tactics-esque power in one pick and freeing up a pool is pretty nice adaptability.  

Edited February 14, 2022 by Mezmera

[macskull]

17 minutes ago, Doomguide2005 said:

Few thoughts

First notice Death Mages.  It has been awhile but don't they debuff To Hit?

Second it's 5% plus acc vs 7% on scrappers so I'm thinking which is better depends a bit on what you're fighting as a Scrapper.  If it's a significant to hit debuffer the FA might pay for that end with less missing ... maybe.  But for something like the ITF the raw To Hit of Tactics is likely a much better investment vs Phalanx Fighting etc.

I'm a proponent of the "I'm not going to use an entire power pool for a power that is only situationally useful and even then can be replaced by an inspiration or two" method here. FA might be worth it if its end cost were cut in half or more, but it's almost no contest between FA and Tactics - unless you're a Sentinel in which case their version of FA is AoE and that's sort of cool I suppose.

[Mezmera]

28 minutes ago, macskull said:

FA might be worth it if its end cost were cut in half or more, but it's almost no contest between FA and Tactics

 

Yes the end cost is quite high which could be brought in line with Tactic's cost.  Since FA doesn't stack with the team that's the con of that power compared to Tactics plus also the lower to hit value easily made up with saving a slot for a Kismet. 

 

You're going to have to chew a lot of yellows to equate to overcome what that 86% debuff resistance nets you.  Plus you get 20% accuracy for all of your powers, which is nothing to scoff at.  All rolled into one power pick which you don't have to take a marginally effective power for tanks in maneuvers or assault to chase a "situationally useful" power in tactics. 

 

FA lets your tank to be always consistent, one bad -tohitt debuff and your tank becomes quite less effective which Tactics offers no help with.  Missing soft control powers with knockdown or taunts can have a significant effect for your team.  It's much more of a contest than you think between these powers.

Edited February 14, 2022 by Mezmera

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 hour ago, macskull said:

unless you're a Sentinel in which case their version of FA is AoE and that's sort of cool I suppose.

 

Wait... what? Link Minds? That's only 3.3% tohit buff. Ohhhh ... Mace Coordinated Targeting. +20% acc/+5% tohit. But costs .78end/sec. Yea, Fark That Noise.

 

 

[macskull]

17 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Wait... what? Link Minds? That's only 3.3% tohit buff. Ohhhh ... Mace Coordinated Targeting. +20% acc/+5% tohit. But costs .78end/sec. Yea, Fark That Noise.

Yeah, still not worth the end cost unfortunately. But it's at least more justifiable than FA.

[KaizenSoze]

21 minutes ago, macskull said:

Yeah, still not worth the end cost unfortunately. But it's at least more justifiable than FA.

We'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

Of course, I am talking about builds for very difficult content. It's a more difficult trade off in normal play, unless your soloing 4x8 CoT, Carnies, and Arachnos a lot.

 

Conserve power and focused accuracy work well together. One helps with endurance, the other with accuracy in difficult content.

[macskull]

9 minutes ago, KaizenSoze said:

We'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

Of course, I am talking about builds for very difficult content. It's a more difficult trade off in normal play, unless your soloing 4x8 CoT, Carnies, and Arachnos a lot.

 

Conserve power and focused accuracy work well together. One helps with endurance, the other with accuracy in difficult content.

To clarify, are you saying the reason to pick Focused Accuracy over Tactics is because of the tohit debuff resistance, or because of the accuracy bonus?