Null The Gull -> Knockback to Knockdown

[JasperStone]

Retire Null the Gull.

You can turn off parts of speed boost, but not this?

"I want the endurance boost, but not the speed boost" Ok ! Done!

Put SB back to casting on a single target.

 

The solution of "don't play the set" is not good enough.

 

How many powers and sets  have  KB? 

Almost all the AoE on my PB have KB, plus a few single target ....all slotted with KB to KD

 

Give us a better option that does not require Null or giving up a slot.

 

My response going forward, like /jranger, will be   /don'tplayset

[flyinggecko2]

26 minutes ago, SwitchFade said:

Just so we know, the driving reason is because on a normal team of SO using causal players, knock back causes defeat?

 

I'm sorry, this seems highly implausible. If a team of people is getting defeated because SOME foes (because no KB is auto 100%) are not firmly in the AoE taunt radius of a brute, this is not primarily due to knock back. In such a scenario, knock back is merely unmasking the true cause, in that the difficulty is beyond all but one type of tactical play for that team. Now, should this be the preferred and only way said team will play, that's all well and good; however, the reality is, if a brute retaining aggro on all foes is the fulcrum of survivability, this clearly demonstrates that KB is not the issue.

 

Suppose a controller spammed AOE immob before all foes we're in brute AoE radius?

 

Suppose a controller or Dom had singy?

 

Suppose someone used fold space or wormhole?

 

Suppose a stalker could generate more threat than the brute?

 

Suppose someone used burn or fear and foes scatter?

 

There are so many scenarios that it's difficult to imagine them all. Really, if the difference between success and defeat is knock back .. larger issues are at play and the diff is likely too high.

I play with the same group of friends on the weekends, none of your 'suppose' scenarios apply except the immobilize, but that's usually manageable

 

Really, the directional knockback, the cones, they're not so bad, it's manageable because the mobs mostly stay together, but the M30, trip mines, and radial AoEs just send guys everywhere. Our brutes a filthy casual who just can't watch all directions at all times.

 

Alternatively I can play my tank and all of our problems are solved save for one: I would like to play an AR/DEV blaster. The enhancement tax significantly lowers his defenses, on an already underperforming powerset.

[flyinggecko2]

11 hours ago, The_Warpact said:

Good grief, would everyone just like the enemies to all run up to you to make it easier?

I don't like the following, can Null the Gull wipe my ass too?

 

Dimensional Shift and powers like it, why should I have to put up with this. Null it!

 

Aggro, I don't like it on my ranged toons, can't I just shut aggro off??? Null it!

 

Fold Space/TP foe/Wormhole if I'm teaming and someone uses it I have to chase the enemies to a new location. Null it!

 

FF, Sonic resonance, repel, etc just Null all of them for the obvious KB.

 

 Super Strength Rage, there's a crash its not a T9. Why is there a crash?? Can I just get Null to disable it?

 

Heals/Buffs from teammates who said they could do this!? Null it!

 

Then how does this affect teaming? Say a person (like me) uses it to herd baddies in nice little piles, teammate 1 doesn't like it and demands I Null it, I tell him to get bent, lrn2ply, and then hilarity ensues. The same can be said of everything else I listed.

How much easier does everyone want everything? The devs already gave everyone the option with a proc to change it. Little by little keep chipping away. 

There's already enough give on ALOT  of things.

 

You know what fvck it, you want to do it that's fine. Disable everything. Null it all. Make it so easy to play thats it boring.

 

As funny as your straw man argument is, as you mentioned, you can already change the knockback via the enhancement tax. I dont think the OPTION to remove it entirely is going to somehow transform the entire game into 'so easy that it's boring.' 

Most of the actual challenging game play enemies are already unaffected by knockback anyways?

[MTeague]

15 minutes ago, flyinggecko2 said:

As funny as your straw man argument is, as you mentioned, you can already change the knockback via the enhancement tax. I dont think the OPTION to remove it entirely is going to somehow transform the entire game into 'so easy that it's boring.' 

Most of the actual challenging game play enemies are already unaffected by knockback anyways?

 

On reflection, I can support the player who has knockback powers having an option to turn off his/her own knockback powers.

Ideally on a per-power basis, because it might be something like "you want it turned off for Buckshot, but not for Power Thrust".

 

I cannot, and will never, under any conditions, support any idea that the player is ever, in any way, obligated by a team to make use of these options. 

[Luminara]

4 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

+0/x6 with light form on auto and permaed? Sure, I can absolutely see that working.

 

+1/x6, LF perma and auto-firing (~8s overlap, but i'm capped on everything but Psi without the overlap).  

 

Sitting here right now with it at +1/x8.  Health goes up and down, but they can't drop me before LF crashes, and the LF crash heals me back up to 50% HP.

 

...

 

I allowed that to continue for ~10 minutes.  HP bar went in the deep red, but I never had to interact to keep the character upright.  If I rejiggered her to add another 93% regeneration (tick every 4s instead of 5.8s), it'd probably flip the scenario, keeping her in the green except when LF crashed.

 

+2 or higher would floor her if I went AFK with the current build (and i just respeced a few days ago to move one slot, so i'm not doing that again for a while).

[flyinggecko2]

13 minutes ago, MTeague said:

 

On reflection, I can support the player who has knockback powers having an option to turn off his/her own knockback powers.

Ideally on a per-power basis, because it might be something like "you want it turned off for Buckshot, but not for Power Thrust".

 

I cannot, and will never, under any conditions, support any idea that the player is ever, in any way, obligated by a team to make use of these options. 

I mean, barring some sort of very specific scenario, like trying to set a record speed run or something (where you probably wouldn't be teaming with random people anyway... so... )

 

But you have helped me to see where the division is. I understand why someone might oppose having the option, and I agree it could be problematic.

 

Currently if there's a character launching people everywhere, someone who dislikes this might tolerate it because they kinda have to. If the option exists to turn it off, these people won't see it as an option. It would give them (in their opinion) the justification to say "go change it, or I'm kicking you off the team."

 

I think most people that unreasonable would be likely to kick you from the team regardless of having the option.... but what do I know, I'm not that unreasonable.

[The_Warpact]

41 minutes ago, flyinggecko2 said:

As funny as your straw man argument is, as you mentioned, you can already change the knockback via the enhancement tax. I dont think the OPTION to remove it entirely is going to somehow transform the entire game into 'so easy that it's boring.' 

Most of the actual challenging game play enemies are already unaffected by knockback anyways?

As funny as it watching you run all over this thread trying to sell us on your desire to change it.

I take solace in the fact its never going to happen.

Edited March 5, 2022 by The_Warpact

[flyinggecko2]

10 minutes ago, The_Warpact said:

As funny as it watching you run all over this thread trying to sell us on your desire to change it.

I take solace in the fact its never going to happen.

Oh really? I didn't realize you had the final say in this matter. My bad.

[SwitchFade]

7 minutes ago, flyinggecko2 said:

Oh really? I didn't realize you had the final say in this matter. My bad.

Knowing is half the battle.

[Placta]

I've had the idea for awhile of special enhancements that can be slotted into Rest that grant global effects. One could be a global knockback to knockdown. The problem is coming up with others that:

• Are strong enough to create a significant opportunity cost for the knockback stopper
• Aren't too power creep-y

I would suggest an Incarnate Interface tree but that requires level 50 to get.

[flyinggecko2]

1 hour ago, SwitchFade said:

Knowing is half the battle.

If GI Joe taught me anything, the other half of the battle is ninjas and lasers 

[Rudra]

According to the meme, it's red lasers and blue lasers.

[Naraka]

55 minutes ago, Placta said:

I've had the idea for awhile of special enhancements that can be slotted into Rest that grant global effects. One could be a global knockback to knockdown. The problem is coming up with others that:

• Are strong enough to create a significant opportunity cost for the knockback stopper
• Aren't too power creep-y

I would suggest an Incarnate Interface tree but that requires level 50 to get.

 

I'm still waiting for some response for just adding a difficulty setting that gives enemies KB protection. Then you won't have to worry about slotting at all.  Of course, high levels (over +2) might end up with high enough KB protection that they won't even be knocked down unless you actually slot for KB to overcome their protection.

 

I think I've check-mated this whole thread.

[MTeague]

7 hours ago, Naraka said:

 

I'm still waiting for some response for just adding a difficulty setting that gives enemies KB protection. Then you won't have to worry about slotting at all.  Of course, high levels (over +2) might end up with high enough KB protection that they won't even be knocked down unless you actually slot for KB to overcome their protection.

 

I think I've check-mated this whole thread.

 

Admittedly, I really like Knockback.  But I would find this even more objectionable than a Null-The-Gull option. A difficulty setting lets the team leader decide for me whether or not I'm even capable of doing knockback. Null would at least leave the decision to the players with KB powers.

 

Honestly, if you don't like people using KB, and it's an unforgivable sin that you cannot accept, then just kick me / them. 

Don't forcibly neuter my powers against my will. 

 

But as a compromise, maybe if this difficult setting softcaps all enemies, and gives them 90% damage resist to all, and a large to-hit bonus.

Then you have have your damaging powers and your defensive powers neutered as the price of neutering my knockback powers. 

 

[flyinggecko2]

8 hours ago, Naraka said:

 

I'm still waiting for some response for just adding a difficulty setting that gives enemies KB protection. Then you won't have to worry about slotting at all.  Of course, high levels (over +2) might end up with high enough KB protection that they won't even be knocked down unless you actually slot for KB to overcome their protection.

 

I think I've check-mated this whole thread.

Actually it already works like that!

Go hit a level 1 mob with a level 50 KB power and fwooosh! 

'Footstomp' from Super Strength is in that perfect sweet spot, 0.67 magnitude KB if I remember correctly. It's just low enough that it won't knock back higher level enemies.

 

@MTeague how you you feel about having most (specifically blaster, and even then still not all) knockback powers changed to a 0.67 magnitude?  I would assume it would be a really simple fix for the devs too!

 

We can even take it one step further, let's buff knockback enhancements! I'd let an expert like @The_Warpact figure out the exact numbers since he's the authority on the matter. That way, all you have to do in order to send mobs flying is slot a knockback enhancement! (Or more for extra laughs).

 

People who actually want knockback can simply slot for it. After all, you guys have no objections to the idea of someone giving up an enhancement slot to change the function of a KB power, right? You guys get your knockback, and I don't have to pay enhancement tax. Everyone wins!

 

Or does having the enhancement tax effect your character instead of mine a deal breaker?

[BrandX]

13 hours ago, flyinggecko2 said:

Right, I'm not against your suggestion. That's fine by me, I just assume it makes it much more difficult for a programmer to implement since nothing else in the game works like that. But I'm not a programmer and don't really know.

 

Just to be pedantic, you don't need to take 'swap ammo'. You can still slot slow in your attacks as DP.

 

Yes, but the set can still get the slow and knock depending on ammo.  Just because you don't take Swap Ammo, doesn't mean the effect isn't there.  It's just unusable.

[The_Warpact]

43 minutes ago, flyinggecko2 said:

Actually it already works like that!

Go hit a level 1 mob with a level 50 KB power and fwooosh! 

'Footstomp' from Super Strength is in that perfect sweet spot, 0.67 magnitude KB if I remember correctly. It's just low enough that it won't knock back higher level enemies.

 

@MTeague how you you feel about having most (specifically blaster, and even then still not all) knockback powers changed to a 0.67 magnitude?  I would assume it would be a really simple fix for the devs too!

 

We can even take it one step further, let's buff knockback enhancements! I'd let an expert like @The_Warpact figure out the exact numbers since he's the authority on the matter. That way, all you have to do in order to send mobs flying is slot a knockback enhancement! (Or more for extra laughs).

 

People who actually want knockback can simply slot for it. After all, you guys have no objections to the idea of someone giving up an enhancement slot to change the function of a KB power, right? You guys get your knockback, and I don't have to pay enhancement tax. Everyone wins!

 

Or does having the enhancement tax effect your character instead of mine a deal breaker?

 

[GM Impervium]

This thread has devolved into bickering, so, locking it.

 

Thank you for the suggestion.