Warshade Dark Extraction

[Microcosm]

Warshades have a few issues that need adjustment, but I don't want to rehash all that. I have a particular idea that I think would specifically help with both the pets and single target damage (some). Dark Extraction is currently a large portion of the Warshade's single target damage. It suffers, however, from several problems:

 

1) The Extractions themselves are too flimsy, being the only non-nuke pet in a primary or secondary that has no inherent defense or resistance. This is made even worse by the fact that, unlike other pet classes, Warshades have no ways to provide buffs or heals to keep the pets alive. All of this means they essentially die to a stiff wind.

2) They are also on a timer, and require a defeated enemy to summon. This is ok, some of the time, but means against hard targets they will start to die off due to their timer (if they didn't magically already die from the enemy). This progressively neuters the Warshade's abilities against hard targets more than any other class, because the pets can't be protected or resummoned during the fight. The resulting petless Warshade ends up contributing possibly the lowest damage in game while also not providing any significant buffs or debuffs against the hard target.

3) Because extractions need to be summoned from a defeated enemy, there are particular enemies and missions where they simply can't be summoned. CoT ghosts are a prime example, as the enemies disappear on defeat instead of leaving a selectable body. The other half of this issue is that if you pick a defeated enemy that is about to disappear and execute Dark Extraction, the power can go off without an Extraction being summoned.

 

My suggestion to fix these issues is to make Dark Extraction a summon off a living target, that does heavy damage to the target. Along with this I would drastically lower the recharge time, make the pets untouchable, but cap the number of pets out at a time to two (currently with very high recharge builds you can get 3 with a brief window of 4 out, assuming they survive). Summoning off living targets means the Warshade can continue to contribute when facing longer-lived enemies, can still use Extractions against ghosts and the like, and would add slightly to their single target damage as it turns the Extraction itself into a long recharge, single target attack. The cap of two active pets is to allow the power to be used more frequently as an attack without creating an unstoppable army of pets, and to balance out making the pets untouchable like Voltaic Sentinel. The untouchable part seems necessary since Dark Extractions still have the unique tax of being on an expiration timer, requiring a target to summon, and being in a class that provides them no protection. Thematically, you would be ripping part of the soul out of your enemy, doing heavy damage and making it fight for you, which feels...right.

[Rudra]

Never played a WS, just tried a PB. Not a fan of Kheldians. So please take my suggestion with a grain of salt.

 

Since Dark Extraction is a large portion of the WS's single target damage, and you are making it possible to summon them from live targets instead of defeated ones, as well as making them untouchable so they live long enough to be of use, then why also flag the extraction to do heavy damage to the target? If the summoned pets are the primary source of damage and are untargetable, plus can now be resummoned at will so long as a live enemy is present to use the power on, then shouldn't the extraction portion of the damage be light or moderate? After all, you're already getting the pets for their full damage and they can't be killed, they only go away when they time out now. With the ability to re-summon as needed.

 

You may be tearing away a part of the target's soul for the summon, but if it is only a fragment, it need not be particularly damaging. Especially since that fragment/those fragments are now going to be trying to eat him.

Edited March 6, 2022 by Rudra
Edited to add "of" before Kheldians.

[Microcosm]

Two reasons: because we are capping the number of pets to 2 when you could currently get 3 to almost 4 currently (though they will die so it's academic); and to turn it into a strong attack on a long recharge to give a slight boost to the overall single target damage a Warshade can do, regardless of pets. Peacebringers do much better single target damage, because their best dpa attack has half the recharge time of the Warshade's, and their "pet" is a nuke that works just as well on a single target as it does on a group.

Edited March 6, 2022 by Microcosm

[Carnifax]

Fluffys biggest issue is they still try and close to melee range despite being ranged (with a cone). 

 

This is also why they die so much. If they behaved themselves more, like Singy, it'd make a big difference to survivability.

 

Personally I wouldn't like them spawning off a heavy attack as suggested. My concept was stolen off Path of Exile slightly, that some powers like blasts could spawn "corpses" (look like purple blobs of some sort) which you could then use for the heal / fluffies and the corpse exploder. 

[Microcosm]

3 hours ago, Carnifax said:

Fluffys biggest issue is they still try and close to melee range despite being ranged (with a cone). 

 

This is also why they die so much. If they behaved themselves more, like Singy, it'd make a big difference to survivability.

 

Personally I wouldn't like them spawning off a heavy attack as suggested. My concept was stolen off Path of Exile slightly, that some powers like blasts could spawn "corpses" (look like purple blobs of some sort) which you could then use for the heal / fluffies and the corpse exploder. 

 

I agree they shouldn't fly into melee. That's an issue with many pets that the current dev group has fixed for some (masterminds), but not all, so hopefully it could also get applied. However, if you fix that and don't make them summoned off the living target as an attack you still have the problems that they die off during AV etc fights over time, can't be summoned against ghosts, etc.

[Greycat]

I don't recall seeing mine go into melee unless they're following *me* there.

 

Eh. I'm not honestly sure how I feel about this. Part of the worry to me is the "untouchable like Voltaic Sentinel," as while VS is untouchable and can attack, it also is never *targeted* by the enemies. Yes, the Essences are targetable, but that also means they're absorbing damage I don't have to (and if they do run off somewhere, they get killed instead of drawing yet more attention directly to me right away.)

 

Besides, I don't know how the devs would feel about another "untouchable but does damage" pet - even one on a timer that expires. We already have that in PA (with a timer,) and PA's one of the primary reasons the longstanding (since live...) request to have Illusion on Doms hasn't happened. Granted, we do have untouchable buffing pets in (some) Lore branches, but they're on an extremely long timer.

 

The "Animation starts but no summon" thing... needs fixing, or if it fails you should be able to reuse it right away, frankly. If you check invasion events (especially zombies,) the corpse timer is *very* short and getting Essences from those is nearly impossible. This was to deal with issues with having too *many* bodies laying around on live, but it did hit Warshades pretty hard... nothing else really relies on this sort of mechanic. (I half wonder if whatever would fix that would also be able to be applied to "if a rez isn't accepted, don't put it on cooldown - make it available right away.")

 

Yeah, I think "ehhh...." sums up best how I feel about this. Granted, I *like* having - I tend to say "2 1/2" pets out, since the third expires fairly quickly (and I don't really have a "recharge" build on my 'shades - though I can get 4 out in an MSR,) and having them soaking damage and mezzes for me. I'd have to see what sort of tradeoffs a dev would apply to it - I think there'd be more than just a summon limit.

 

(Also, lore nitpick - no, you're not extracting part of their soul, or you'd have even more things this shouldn't work on... most robots for instance, or most Carnies, since Devore laps those up via the masks. "Essence" is used through several descriptions of warshade powers. It's basically just whatever energy is giving life/motivation to the target. It doesn't invalidate the theme of what you're aiming at - Nictus try to drain energy to keep themselves alive, after all, and that'd have an effect - it's just one of those things people like me get picky about. :) )

[Microcosm]

I would be ok with a different survival change. I've pushed before to allow them to inherit your eclipse buff like they do with sunless mire, including whatever it's current duration is. This would have some get a long buff and others a short one. I wouldn't want to limit them to two in that instance though. I'm currently thinking the two capped untouchables just because the warshade doesn't have the buffs and heals of other pet classes. In some situations where they're getting heals and buffs from teammate/leaguemates they can survive well enough, but there are just too many scenarios where they are essentially useless.

[Carnifax]

2 hours ago, Microcosm said:

 

I agree they shouldn't fly into melee. That's an issue with many pets that the current dev group has fixed for some (masterminds), but not all, so hopefully it could also get applied. However, if you fix that and don't make them summoned off the living target as an attack you still have the problems that they die off during AV etc fights over time, can't be summoned against ghosts, etc.

Sure you can. Like I said give some single target attacks the chance to spawn "corpses" at your feet (call them remnants or something) then you've solved Fluffies, Unchain Essence and Stygian Circle being useless in AV fights. As you blast you create "fuel"

Edited March 6, 2022 by Carnifax

[...]

I like it. 

 

But what happens to the pet when the target dies? Does the pet despawn or hang around and keep fighting?  

 

I'd prefer the latter, but keep them at a moderate to light damage. 

 

Also worth noting that they have a cone. Untouchable pets with a cone is probably a little much. Might have to remove the cone. Warshades themselves do enough aoe.

 

I also feel that the loss of "off tanks" by making them untouchable is totally acceptable. Without defense or resistance... they are really shitty off tanks. 

[Microcosm]

13 hours ago, ... said:

I like it. 

 

But what happens to the pet when the target dies? Does the pet despawn or hang around and keep fighting?  

 

I'd prefer the latter, but keep them at a moderate to light damage. 

 

Also worth noting that they have a cone. Untouchable pets with a cone is probably a little much. Might have to remove the cone. Warshades themselves do enough aoe.

 

I also feel that the loss of "off tanks" by making them untouchable is totally acceptable. Without defense or resistance... they are really shitty off tanks. 

 

They should stick around like they currently do. We don't have to do the untouchable thing, but they need some sort of survival change. Giving them a modicum of defense or resistance like most other pets get really doesn't do it because the Warshades have no tools to buff or heal them unlike other pet classes. The best you can hope for is to be in a team with healers or to stun the enemies with Gravitic + Inky, but Inky's radius is so small that doesn't work out in practice except against tightly packed, very weak enemies. I think inheriting Eclipse is a good alternative, though they will end up being very flimsy against those single hard targets again. But if you can keep resummoning them off an attack on said hard target, it might work out. I'm also, for the record, not against Carnifax's idea, though I prefer this one as it gives an extra beefy attack to use occasionally against single targets.

[SeraphimKensai]

Everyone forgot the most important thing that Dark Extraction needs to be fixed to do.... properly recolor the power and fluffy and fluffy's attacks to the color palette that the player assigns for the power.

 

But honestly Kheldians in general need a much deserved overhaul for the entire AT.

[TheZag]

Dominators cant heal or buff their pets either so they might need untouchable pets on a fast cooldown that do high AoE damage when summoned.

 

If so much of an ATs effectiveness hinges on 1 power then buffing that power wont fix the AT.

 

I like @Carnifax's idea and it looks like it could even work with a psuedopet summoning a little purple fuzz puddle that is a valid target for those powers.  If i may add to the idea that the warshade stores 'charges' of the power that refill on a set timer that is slower then optimal so the need for corpses isnt completely replaced but still able to provide benefit in drawn out battles.

[Microcosm]

Dominator pets come with their own defense or resistances, and dominators can lock down entire mobs pretty easily. Warshades have some control but nowhere near the levels that doms do; part of that also locks you out of form shifting if you try to maintain inky. Dom pets can also be resummoned when defeated as long as they're recharged.

 

So much of a warshade's single target effectiveness hinges on this one power. Fixing this one power would indeed fix the vast majority of the single target issues they have and shouldn't have. There are other QoL changes that need making, but that's largely irrelevant to this problem.

Edited March 10, 2022 by Microcosm

[golstat2003]

I like this idea, but the OP and others are also right. The Kheld AT needs some help.

[TheZag]

Exactly my point.  If 1 power makes a AT go from bad at something to good at something then that AT has a problem.  Buffing the pet power from cast on a defeated target to cast on an alive target but also add high damage and add fast recharge and add that the pet is invincible turns warshades into a 1 power pick AT.  Take dark extraction and you dont need anything else and you are amazing or skip it and suck.  If every power is so bad that dark extraction needs to be a faceroll i win button then the AT needs a balance pass and not a huge buff to a single power.

 

Im not saying that this power shouldnt be better,  but it should be done with a look at the entire kit and how powers should work together and not just throw all the damage in 1 power and call it a day.

 

 

Edited March 11, 2022 by TheZag

[Microcosm]

I think you are overestimating the damage of two of the extracted essences. The changes suggested wouldn't make warshades a "pick 1 power and you're amazing" AT at all. It would reduce the current max damage under optimal conditions (3 to 4 of these pets surviving) to something that is more consistent and doesn't fall off a cliff as sharply. Two of these pets wouldn't make the shade go to "good at something", it would go to somewhere closer to some of the other low damage ATs at single target damage, instead of absolute bottom of the barrel. Actually still a bit lower without adding the damage to the summon.

 

Some numbers might help my point. A procced to the gills, max incarnated warshade without pets does 227 dps. With weaken resolve you can bump that a little bit. With three pets out, using Barrier and getting lucky enough that they survive you get into the low 300s. This is roughly the same as a procced out, fully incarnated pb that doesn't have pets that will die. This is also comparable to a procced out, incarnated dp sentinel, which is similarly tough and similarly low damage. Meanwhile tanks, more survivable than these classes, can blow past that. This is in the context of procs; remove those and the numbers get muuuch worse to the point i dont have the patience to test it anymore. And if you're thinking of using sunless mire to bump that, those extra enemies increase the chance of killing the essences. Without pets, using 4 chief soldiers as fodder for sunless mire, the dps is increased by a wopping 2 because the activation time of the mire vs the buff value doesn't work out.

 

So with two untouchable pets, we're still doing less damage than comparable PBs and sentinels, but we can actually keep doing that damage instead of hoping a defender will come along to solo the AV for us.

 

Now I'm not arguing some other things shouldn't also be done, because they should in addition to this--such as toggle suppression, applying the Dark Melee buffs to Warshade's copied powers, perhaps some form of minor status protection from human shields. But ST damage is the single most broken thing about Warshades, and it's because this one power doesn't function adequately in its current form. Warshades do adequate aoe. They do minor control. They can survive well. You can figure ways around mez. But they are truly terrible at this one thing because this one power drops off in effectiveness. It's not that it's the only source of damage, but it's a normal AT's t9 that stops being functional.