Suggestion: Reworked Defense / To-Hit Formula

[Varkarrus]

The Now:

 

Right now, everyone wants to hit that golden number of 45% defense. The fabled "Soft Cap." So named because at 45% defense, enemies have 5% base accuracy, and no enemy can have less than a 5% chance to hit you.

 

This creates a weird form of increasing returns... to a point where afterwards, basically nothing happens.

 

The Suggestion:

 

Use a logarithmic scale instead. Defense would no longer have a cap. Something like this:

Adjusted Defense (AD) = Base Defense + (Total Defense^0.98) - (Enemy To Hit ^ 0.98)

Chance to Dodge = 100*0.9895^AD

 

Under this system, a same-level minion's base to-hit could be -50. A player may have 45 defense because they aimed for the old soft cap. Base Defense could be something like 10-20 depending on Archetype. I can already see that this would make more attacks connect, but honestly is it even good

 

Let's math this out.

 

AD = 20 + (45^0.98) - (-50^ 0.98)
     = 20+41.7 + 46
     = 107.7

Chance to Dodge = 100 * 0.9895^107.7 = 67.8%

 

So, like I said, minions would go from missing you 95% of the time to missing you only 67.8% of the time. That said, it'd also mean popping Elude while at the soft-cap would be a whole lot better. Still, the damage they deal would have to be reduced to compensate. So let's do that! Perhaps I'll rework the resistance formula in the same way!

 

I feel like this is going to be what Finally pushes me to look at the i25 server binaries and see what I can modify.

 

 

[jack_nomind]

/jranger

 

The quantifier community of CoH loves it specifically because of very very weird behavior like this.  Although well-intentioned, this kind of change (in PvE) is distinctly "not CoH."  I'd go find another server.

 

But if you decide to do this on your own server, you can basically just change damage resistance to work like mez resistance.

[Rylas]

So... you want to make Defense worse so that you can finally feel like using Elude is worth it?

 

Gonna have to go with a hard pass on this one, chief.

[Venture]

Also bear in mind that Standard softcap in 45% but that the effective incarnate softcap is 59% (all incarnate mobs have innate +14% tohit buff)

[Redlynne]

/jranger

[SwitchFade]

So, you want to softkick SR in the privies?

 

I'm gonna have to Dodge this one with a /jranger.

[Varkarrus]

I don't want to softkick SR.

 

My goal is the following:

 

• Remove the softcaps as some "mythical goal" to reach when making a character build
  
• Allow for more versatility in builds; focusing solely in defense, vs solely in resist, vs a mix, each with its own set of pros and cons
  
• Reduce the dodge rate overall, and instead decrease damage taken to compensate. It seems silly that so few attacks hit players. It also means a string of bad luck can lead to a player getting two-shotted "spontaneously"
  
• Super Reflexes won't lose out in overall survivability because although they will get hit more often, the universal damage reduction will compensate for that. They will still have the highest defense.
  

[JusticeBowler]

I don't want to softkick SR.

 

My goal is the following:

 

• Remove the softcaps as some "mythical goal" to reach when making a character build
  
• Allow for more versatility in builds; focusing solely in defense, vs solely in resist, vs a mix, each with its own set of pros and cons
  
• Reduce the dodge rate overall, and instead decrease damage taken to compensate. It seems silly that so few attacks hit players. It also means a string of bad luck can lead to a player getting two-shotted "spontaneously"
  
• Super Reflexes won't lose out in overall survivability because although they will get hit more often, the universal damage reduction will compensate for that. They will still have the highest defense.
  

 

Svengjuk the Ice Tank votes, "No" on measure Varkarrus1

 

The overall effect of this would shift the power balance even more strongly against DEF sets in melee.

[Varkarrus]

It's impossible to say that without concrete numbers. Which is exactly why I downloaded the i25 source code so I can (hopefully) experiment.

[Primantis]

It's impossible to say that without concrete numbers. Which is exactly why I downloaded the i25 source code so I can (hopefully) experiment.

 

 

Which is exactly why everyone is against it. You're handing us magic beans and telling us it will make the game better! But first you need to apparently nerf the heck out of defense.  We need to see them fully grown and functional!

 

Then you use "diversify builds" as your reasoning. It sounds like ED 2.0!

 

 

 

 

Also keep in mind the effects this would have on various debuffs and mezzes. Defense is gonna be even more easily debuffed now since we're dodging less. And my Defense-based squishies are going to be mezzed even more now. Both are things that a universal damage-nerf to Mobs wouldn't quite compensate for.

 

 

 

While I am very opposed to this suggestion, I am still intrigued with what kind of numbers you come up with and what you're complete plan would be.

[Galaxy Brain]

I agree with the sentiment, the Meta is incredibly focused on making it so you rarely if ever take hits which in turn means you avoid debuffs, controls, etc. Changing this would fundamentally change the meta at all levels quite drastically, but I am curious on what you come up with!

 

(Maybe add in what we call Glancing blows... a chance to take 1/2 damage and effect instead of all or nothing, and layers before Resists)

[DSorrow]

This all sounds like an awfully complex change to implement in a way that anyone would be happy. Just looking at the example you posted, the change would basically completely invalidate all Defense based sets. 45% Def is only achievable to some tank sets without IOs and you'd go to change the damage reduction from 95% to 67.8% basically increasing incoming damage 6 fold. At the same time, the difference between a Tank's Defense (45%) a Scrapper/Brute's with a similar build (36%) would be minimal (67.8% chance to miss vs 65.1% chance to miss), so why play a tank after this? If you add something like Elude (let's say, it's enough to double the values), the numbers are 79% and 75% which is ridiculously low considering that using most resistance based T9s put you at 90% damage reduction.

 

You'd have to change the damage scaling to keep the current balance in a "default" scenario we'd have to pick basically arbitrarily. How would you adjust for level differences? Enemies get a 1.4 accuracy modifier too when they're at +4 so doing that content would become pretty much impossible for any Defense based set as even with an unreasonable amount of buffs (constant 90%+ Defense), you'd still be taking in about 30% of incoming damage and with a more normal amount of Defense buffing, roughly 50% of incoming damage, both of which are worse or on par with most resist based sets without accounting for the enemies' base chance to miss against resistance only characters. Then we introduce rank based accuracy modifiers (1.3 for bosses and EBs, 1.5 for AVs) so a +4 AV would hit a 45% defense character 67% of the time for a ~30% damage reduction which is less than most Tanker resistance sets get unslotted. Might as well rename all Defensive sets to Paper Defense.

 

It's an interesting idea on paper, but making drastic changes to the game balance is most likely a bad idea, and changing things to a new formula just for the sake of change while keeping the same balance as we have now is a huge and largely  useless effort. Besides, the soft caps aren't even that great on characters without -Def resistance: anyone shanking you once is going to cause a cascading defense failure and 5 seconds later your build might as well provide you with zero defense.

[nihilii]

Also bear in mind that Standard softcap in 45% but that the effective incarnate softcap is 59% (all incarnate mobs have innate +14% tohit buff)

 

Yep, whenever people claim there's no point to go beyond 45% softcap, I'm left to wonder whether their sole gameplay experience is a farm map.

 

Try to load up a +4/x8 mission against the IDF with a merely softcapped character. They will tear your fabled perfect defense to shreds.

 

Besides that, most factions have defense debuffs. 45% def against +4 anything quickly turns to 30% the first time a hit lands, then cascading failure happens. Only sets with strong defense debuff resists can dodge that scenario.

 

Defense *is* king in this game, but the 45% number on its own isn't all it's cracked up to be unless you limit yourself to very specific content.

[eldriyth]

I don't want to softkick SR.

 

My goal is the following:

 

• Remove the softcaps as some "mythical goal" to reach when making a character build
  
• Allow for more versatility in builds; focusing solely in defense, vs solely in resist, vs a mix, each with its own set of pros and cons
  
• Reduce the dodge rate overall, and instead decrease damage taken to compensate. It seems silly that so few attacks hit players. It also means a string of bad luck can lead to a player getting two-shotted "spontaneously"
  
• Super Reflexes won't lose out in overall survivability because although they will get hit more often, the universal damage reduction will compensate for that. They will still have the highest defense.
  

 

 

This tells me that you don't even have an A3 toon. All ATs are complete trash before A3. There is nothing wrong with Super Reflexes or the current system. This is a Pebkac error.  /jranger