New Difficulty Setting: Diminishing Returns

[Ston]

Pretty straightforward suggestion here:

 

Add a difficulty setting to task forces, trials, and story arcs where the PVP diminishing returns system is added to PVE. Not only would this introduce a unique challenge to the game, it would also give some exposure to PVP gameplay mechanics for those who want to learn more about it. In my opinion, this would be a more interesting option than "players debuffed" or "no enhancements".

 

See the Diminishing Returns section here -> https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Player_vs_Player

FinalValue = OriginalValue * (1 - ABS(ATAN(A * OriginalValue)) * 2/pi * B)

A and B being Archetype/Attribute variables

Edited April 27, 2022 by Ston

[Rudra]

Explain please.

[Ston]

2 hours ago, Rudra said:

Explain please.

 

Basically, none of your stats can be buffed to really high amounts. They would all follow a logarithmic curve.

 

For example, ranged ATs would not be able to reach softcapped defense. This image represents how DR would interact with their defense. You would only be able to reach around 18% defense in most cases, so you would need to see what other areas you can invest in to get more survivability.

 

Realistically, only melee ATs with defense T9 powers will be able to reach softcap.

 

This kind of curve would be applied to stats (resistance, recharge, buffs, debuffs, damage bonus, etc).

 

EDIT: Debuffs and any effects used against enemies will not be DR'd with this system.

 

Edited April 27, 2022 by Ston

[Rudra]

Soooooo... if my character already has buffs, say I pop Build Up, and the defender/controller/whatever uses Fulcrum Shift, I would basically see no benefit from it?

[Ston]

3 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Soooooo... if my character already has buffs, say I pop Build Up, and the defender/controller/whatever uses Fulcrum Shift, I would basically see no benefit from it?

 

Correct. 

Edited April 27, 2022 by Ston

[Rudra]

And people wonder why I play solo all the time....

 

Edit: To be clear, in my example, I popped Build Up first, and then the other player used Fulcrum Shift. Leaving me cursing about having wasted my Build Up or not getting the benefits of Fulcrum Shift.

Edited April 27, 2022 by Rudra

[biostem]

26 minutes ago, Rudra said:

To be clear, in my example, I popped Build Up first, and then the other player used Fulcrum Shift. Leaving me cursing about having wasted my Build Up or not getting the benefits of Fulcrum Shift.

 

Did you expect the kinetics user to be psychic or something?  Did you communicate to them previously to see if they could let you know when they were gonna use FS?

[Ston]

5 minutes ago, biostem said:

 

Did you expect the kinetics user to be psychic or something?  Did you communicate to them previously to see if they could let you know when they were gonna use FS?

 

In all seriousness, depending on your team composition, calling out your buffs & debuffs would be a valuable strategy with this kind of difficulty setting. Which is the kind of gameplay I think some players would enjoy.

Edited April 27, 2022 by Ston

[biostem]

2 minutes ago, Ston said:

In all seriousness, depending on your team composition, calling out your buffs & debuffs would be a valuable strategy with this kind of difficulty setting. Which is the kind of gameplay I think some players would enjoy.

Oh I certainly agree - provided you discussed things with your teammates so expectations would be established ahead of time...

[Doomguide2005]

My reflexive response is a polite "No thanks."  My SR scrapper wouldn't be crazy about it for one.

 

On the otherhand if the HC Staff wanted to go to the work and it's optional *shrug*.  I'd give it a try like I have with essentially everything the game offers.

 

We do have the Advanced Difficulty Options such as with the Dr. Aeon Strike Force though.

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, biostem said:

 

Did you expect the kinetics user to be psychic or something?  Did you communicate to them previously to see if they could let you know when they were gonna use FS?

The cited example was exactly that. An example. Not a recollection of something that happened to me. (Edit: Again, I almost always play solo. So my example is in consideration of those that do team on a regular basis.) And no, I don't take the time to type up what I am doing in team chat when I team. I stop attacking long enough to warn someone if they run off on their own that they are on their own, but only if I catch it. Otherwise, when combat is going, I don't have time to sit there and type out to the team what powers I am going to use.

 

Edit again: I guess my first person view in the example should have been third person to avoid the confusion. Apologies.

Edited April 27, 2022 by Rudra

[biostem]

9 minutes ago, Rudra said:

The cited example was exactly that. An example. Not a recollection of something that happened to me. (Edit: Again, I almost always play solo. So my example is in consideration of those that do team on a regular basis.) And no, I don't take the time to type up what I am doing in team chat when I team. I stop attacking long enough to warn someone if they run off on their own that they are on their own, but only if I catch it. Otherwise, when combat is going, I don't have time to sit there and type out to the team what powers I am going to use.

So your example is basically invalid, since you didn't put in the work to communicate with your teammates, but still felt a need to voice your frustration at having "wasted" the use of one of your powers because the other teammate, who you again never communicated with, used their power without telling you...

Edited April 27, 2022 by biostem

[Rudra]

There are those of us that don't have Team Chat microphone capabilities, so I don't see my example as invalid. After all, why should I stop attacking to type out "I'm popping Build Up" mid-combat? Especially since the only time I use a power like that is when the fight has gotten desperate?

 

Look, if you and your team have the capability to effectively communicate (typically using something like Team Chat, and not talking about the team chat tab), great! Use it. That makes things go so much more smoothly. Edit again: And would prevent things like my example from happening. End Edit. For those of us without those capabilities? Not spamming buttons to attack, heal, buff ourselves, or debuff the enemy to take the time to say "I'm popping Build Up or "I'm using my own heal" or "I'm using <insert inspiration>" is a bad idea when the time comes that we need to use those abilities.

 

Edit again continued: However, the proposal would also make teams that happen to have more than 1 member that took Leadership pool powers have at least 1 person who made a power choice to benefit the team that is no longer benefitting the team.

 

Edit take 3: Let alone how that would affect debuffers who find that only 1 of them can really affect the target. Sorry /rad and /dark corruptors. Which of you is the actual debuffer? The other can just play a psuedo-blaster.

Edited April 27, 2022 by Rudra
Edited to add missing opening parenthesis.

[Ston]

12 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Edit take 3: Let alone how that would affect debuffers who find that only 1 of them can really affect the target. Sorry /rad and /dark corruptors. Which of you is the actual debuffer? The other can just play a psuedo-blaster.

 

I made a mistake in a previous post. Any effects used against enemies will not be DR'd with this system. 

 

However, your other concerns are valid. It would require a lot of communication.

[biostem]

12 minutes ago, Rudra said:

There are those of us that don't have Team Chat microphone capabilities, so I don't see my example as invalid. After all, why should I stop attacking to type out "I'm popping Build Up" mid-combat? Especially since the only time I use a power like that is when the fight has gotten desperate?

 

Look, if you and your team have the capability to effectively communicate (typically using something like Team Chat, and not talking about the team chat tab), great! Use it. That makes things go so much more smoothly. Edit again: And would prevent things like my example from happening. End Edit. For those of us without those capabilities? Not spamming buttons to attack, heal, buff ourselves, or debuff the enemy to take the time to say "I'm popping Build Up or "I'm using my own heal" or "I'm using <insert inspiration>" is a bad idea when the time comes that we need to use those abilities.

 

Edit again continued: However, the proposal would also make teams that happen to have more than 1 member that took Leadership pool powers have at least 1 person who made a power choice to benefit the team that is no longer benefitting the team.

 

Edit take 3: Let alone how that would affect debuffers who find that only 1 of them can really affect the target. Sorry /rad and /dark corruptors. Which of you is the actual debuffer? The other can just play a psuedo-blaster.

No, you don't need voice chat or anything fancy like that.  Before you begin a mission, before you even head off on your missions, you should type into team chat and get to know your teammate a little - establish some ground rules:  "Hey!  Can you just give a heads up when you're gonna use FS or something?".  I don't understand why you are so against communicating with your team, but at the same time express frustration when your teammates don't coordinate with you...

[Rudra]

I have no problems with my teammates not coordinating with me. I don't have to deal with DR in PvE either though.

 

Edit: As is, if I or anyone else does something in combat, I don't care. We're all trying to win. Now add DR. Now I have to know who is doing what, when, and likely why on the team to ensure I'm not wasting anything or causing others to waste anything. So yeah, I'm against this. If it gets implemented for some God only knows reason though? My life will be little affected. I will simply go from teaming maybe once a week to teaming never. Problem solved.

Edited April 27, 2022 by Rudra

[Luminara]

4 hours ago, Ston said:

EDIT: Debuffs and any effects used against enemies will not be DR'd with this system.

 

Then it wouldn't be balanced.  Return to square one.

[Ston]

1 hour ago, Luminara said:

 

Then it wouldn't be balanced.  Return to square one.

 

Well.. the intention is to add DR to any effects on a player. Any effects applied to enemies wouldn’t be changed. So for example, you can stack a ton of -def on them, but they can’t do the same to you. But you also can’t get to really high defense levels.

 

It would be interesting if there were 2-way DR between players and NPCs, but i don’t think that exists in the code. I just imagine the PVP rules can be applied to PVE mapservers. 

[biostem]

12 minutes ago, Ston said:

Well.. the intention is to add DR to any effects on a player. Any effects applied to enemies wouldn’t be changed. So for example, you can stack a ton of -def on them, but they can’t do the same to you. But you also can’t get to really high defense levels.

Wouldn't this then instead change the meta to focus on debuffs on the enemies instead of buffs on the players?  Can't raise def beyond a certain point - debuff enemy tohit instead...

[Luminara]

4 minutes ago, Ston said:

Well.. the intention is to add DR to any effects on a player. Any effects applied to enemies wouldn’t be changed. So for example, you can stack a ton of -def on them, but they can’t do the same to you. But you also can’t get to really high defense levels.

 

And piling -ToHit on the enemies accomplishes the same result as using Defense to hit the soft cap.  The very purpose of adding that diminishing return on Defense would be sidestepped entirely by debuffing powers, create a massive disparity between buffs and debuffs and skew player choice toward debuffs.

 

Not.  Balanced.

[Troo]

@Ston Keep the ideas coming. While not on board with this one, I like your thought on introducing players to other aspects of the game.

 

 

[Bill Z Bubba]

I randomly PvPed back before the massive PvP only changes. I have no desire to ever see them introduced to the PvE side of the game. Optional or not.

[Naraka]

My initial thought by the title, I thought you were going to say diminishing returns on IO bonuses. The others are right, though. Debuffs would then be the meta for this mode.

 

18 hours ago, Rudra said:

Soooooo... if my character already has buffs, say I pop Build Up, and the defender/controller/whatever uses Fulcrum Shift, I would basically see no benefit from it?

How long does build up last?

 

15 hours ago, Rudra said:

I have no problems with my teammates not coordinating with me. I don't have to deal with DR in PvE either though.

 

Edit: As is, if I or anyone else does something in combat, I don't care. We're all trying to win. Now add DR. Now I have to know who is doing what, when, and likely why on the team to ensure I'm not wasting anything or causing others to waste anything. So yeah, I'm against this. If it gets implemented for some God only knows reason though? My life will be little affected. I will simply go from teaming maybe once a week to teaming never. Problem solved.

To the OP's credit, it's an option. You can choose to do it or play the TF/SF on another setting. Off the wall types of settings should be something to spice up the game and force you to play differently, not tuck you in and present you a mug of warm milk.

[Uun]

I see no reason to introduce the PVP mechanics to the PVE side of the game. Those mechanics were never accepted by the player base on live and, for the most part, PVP is nonexistent in HC. 

[Rudra]

4 hours ago, Naraka said:

To the OP's credit, it's an option. You can choose to do it or play the TF/SF on another setting. Off the wall types of settings should be something to spice up the game and force you to play differently, not tuck you in and present you a mug of warm milk.

Aww... not even the cookies? Come on, it at least has to give me cookies, yes? (Seriously, where did that come from? I'm not asking for the game to be easier.)

 

Use of DR in PvP: Not an issue. You're fighting other players. No matter how built up the player characters are, there is a limit to their development. DR was put for PvP balance, right? To reign in some builds and improve others? I don't PvP, but from what I've read of it so far, that is what it looks like.

 

Use of DR in PvE, even just as a selectable option: You have GMs and AVs in those trials and TFs/SFs, and you just cut out the buffers and debuffers ability to help against them. So when someone runs this option, you will either see them limit the numbers of said characters or leave them out. Thank you for the difficulty setting that leaves some of the players out. We already have increased difficulty settings on some TFs/SFs that are being proliferated to the everything else over time. And while I personally have no idea how people clear the Dr. Aeon SF on those difficulties, I can still see a route for it to feasibly happen. I don't with DR as explained.

 

Now if the already being proliferated difficulties are for some reason not enough for some of you? Sure, come up with new options. That doesn't take a dump on a specific set of player types and possibly leave them out.

 

DR as explained will not impede the brutes, tankers, scrappers, stalkers, or blasters. It will render the controllers, dominators, defenders, and corruptors almost useless.

 

MMs, Arachnos soldiers, Arachnos widows, PBs, and WSs are a grey area that would need to be shaken out into yay or nay categories.