Devs, Super Reflexes in need of an update....

[Rudra]

According to the wiki, streak breaker affects both players and critters: https://archive.paragonwiki.com/wiki/Attack_Mechanics

 So not counting autohit attacks, each mob will be affected by streak breaker to hit the player per the formula/data on that page.

 

Edit: I'm probably reading the page wrong, but it looks like if your defense is high enough, the mobs may not enjoy a streak breaker until 100 misses though. So if your SR defense is high enough that the enemy has a 20% chance to hit or less, it will not get a forced hit until it has missed 100 times. And that is calculated for each critter individually, not as a group. Again, that is only if I am reading it right.

Edited May 28, 2022 by Rudra

[aethereal]

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

I'm probably reading the page wrong, but it looks like if your defense is high enough, the mobs may not enjoy a streak breaker until 100 misses though. So if your SR defense is high enough that the enemy has a 20% chance to hit or less, it will not get a forced hit until it has missed 100 times. And that is calculated for each critter individually, not as a group. Again, that is only if I am reading it right.

 

 

You're correct.  Also, the odds of missing 100 attacks in row even with floored to hit chance are negligible (about 0.6%), so even if you let someone attack you 100 times in a row, steak breaker will almost certainly not kick in.

[DrunkFlux]

SR is only troublesome for scrappers/stalkers and only due to it's AoE defense coming especially late, at level 35, with it's passive at being at 28(which effectively makes almost zero difference, defense is usually only effective at about 30%+ by itself, and needs to be at 40%+ to truly be effective by itself).  With it's AoE defense being what I'd call cardboard until 35 for those two AT's, it can be very off-putting for a lot of players, frankly I think the third toggle should be in the same tier as what brutes and tankers have.

 

But my SR tanker says a lot about any claim that SR is a "gimp" set, she out-tanks a lot of nasty situations, in fact I only had a few deaths on her and I was tanking even when I was leveling her, often holding agro even with the mobs being +5 to her.

 

Tankers and brutes SR is 100% fine for them, it's just the power set order for stalkers and scrappers that needs to be looked at, sentinels to but sentinels are garbage anyways and need a look serious look at.

[Doomguide2005]

Yeah the idea Streakbreaker plays any significant role in the survival equation for SR is questionable at best.

[Stormwalker]

I started to type up a long post about this, and then thought, "You know, I bet BillZBubba has probably already said everything that needs to be said on this subject.:"  So I looked down the thread, and sure enough, he nailed it.

 

Change the SR power orders so you get AoE defense at a reasonable level, and leave everything else alone.

 

An Elude fix would be nice, but honestly I think some of the other early T9's are worse off than Elude.  And I actually DO take Elude, though I mostly only use it when I get detoggled somehow (Sapper, etc.).  One of the beautiful things about SR is that detoggling doesn't kill your mez protection, so you can pop a blue, hit Elude, and finish off the spawn (then wait for the crash, retoggle, and resume).

[Blackjoy]

22 hours ago, Doomguide2005 said:

1. Yep Elude could use some love.  It's pretty near pointless in the current game.
2. Okay it would be a nice to have.  Unconvinced it's really an issue however.

Rest of the post kind of baffles me.  SR is near indestructible as it currently exists unless you're building well outside the norm with the expectation of also performing well outside the norm.  

 

Edit:  what makes other armor sets cry (nevermind everyone else) isn't truly our defense it's our DDR which isn't even mentioned.

 

 

 

SR isn't even in the galaxy of indestructible.  You seems to be confusing a build with Tough, Weave, and 100+ million in set IOs with SR.   Go start an SR at level 1 and tell me how comparatively indestructible the set its?   

 

"Edit:  what makes other armor sets cry (nevermind everyone else) isn't truly our defense it's our DDR which isn't even mentioned."  It is mentioned.  I speicfically state that SR has its moments, but there are only a handful of mobs that have Defense Debuff.  And even with DDR, you can STILL have cascade failure of +DEF...which is not true for +RES.   

 

The bottom line is I don't kneed to convince anyone posting here, nor am i trying to.  Everything being said here now was said back on Live, and the when the devs finally ran the stats, they couldn't deny the truth.     I just need the current developers to run the stats.    Check and see if the set underperforms comparatively.  

 

[Bill Z Bubba]

5 minutes ago, Blackjoy said:

And even with DDR, you can STILL have cascade failure of +DEF...which is not true for +RES.

 

Not with 95% DDR. Name one instance where it could happen. Show screenshots and the math. I know it doesn't happen against an aggro cap's worth of +4 Cimerorans.

 

I am not going to state that SR is all rainbows and lollipops while leveling up. Especially on a scrapper, it can be a slog due to the power order. But after level 36, it's easy mode cruise control for cool. Stating otherwise is hogwash.

[Naraka]

23 minutes ago, Blackjoy said:

 

SR isn't even in the galaxy of indestructible.  You seems to be confusing a build with Tough, Weave, and 100+ million in set IOs with SR.   Go start an SR at level 1 and tell me how comparatively indestructible the set its?   

 

 

 

Go start any armor powerset at level 1 and see how indestructible it is.

 

Spoilers: none are.

Edited May 29, 2022 by Naraka

[Rudra]

31 minutes ago, Blackjoy said:

SR isn't even in the galaxy of indestructible.  You seems to be confusing a build with Tough, Weave, and 100+ million in set IOs with SR.   Go start an SR at level 1 and tell me how comparatively indestructible the set its?   

You seem to be comparing a barebones SR build to an augmented non-SR build. If you're going to run a comparison with SR without the power pool add-ons or IO set bonuses, then you need to compare it against other armors without power pool add-ons or IO set bonuses. I'd imagine it would get pretty tough regardless of the armor set.

 

Edit: And as an aside, if you can't convince the community, you may find it difficult to convince the devs. If your claim is as solid as you say and there is proof, can you provide it?

Edited May 29, 2022 by Rudra

[Stormwalker]

32 minutes ago, Blackjoy said:

 

SR isn't even in the galaxy of indestructible.  You seems to be confusing a build with Tough, Weave, and 100+ million in set IOs with SR.   Go start an SR at level 1 and tell me how comparatively indestructible the set its?   

 

 

 

I've played a lot of scrappers, with a lot of different armor sets.  Also a few brutes.  Mostly on live, but I have a Claw/SR at 50 and well into Incarnate powers here on HC now, and my other scrappers are working their way up through the levels.

 

I've yet to see one that performs to its potential without investment in pool powers and IO's to build on its strengths and shore up its weaknesses.

 

Below level 35, SR has issues.  I'm certainly not going to dispute that.  But once you have all your powers and a reasonable build in place, SR is one of the strongest armor sets available to scrappers.

 

If we're going to be talking about buffing an armor set, we should be looking at Regeneration (which is absolutely pathetic, and can't reach the survivability of other sets even WITH pool powers and heavy IO slotting) as opposed to SR (which is one of the best).

[Luminara]

38 minutes ago, Blackjoy said:

You seems to be confusing a build with Tough, Weave, and 100+ million in set IOs with SR.

 

So, you want the set to be balanced in a vacuum, irrespective of pool powers.

 

 

[Blackjoy]

3 hours ago, Stormwalker said:

I've yet to see one that performs to its potential without investment in pool powers and IO's to build on its strengths and shore up its weaknesses.

This isn't about performing "up to its potential," this is about how the set performs comparatively.

 

Quote

Below level 35, SR has issues.  I'm certainly not going to dispute that. 

Well it's great to see some posters have some integrity.   And if HC is going to fix TA, which did not need fixing, they need to address SR.  It shouldn't suck below 35 any more than any other set, and it does.

Quote

But once you have all your powers and a reasonable build in place, SR is one of the strongest armor sets available to scrappers.

"and a reasonable build?"  How does SR compare to the other secondaries when none of them can rely on Tough, Weave, and a bunch of Set IO procs to cover endurance?   Because that is how the sets are suppose to be balanced.  Let's see how SR fairs then.   What most people on these forums aren't groking is that their build is good...it's not SR.

 

Quote

If we're going to be talking about buffing an armor set, we should be looking at Regeneration (which is absolutely pathetic, and can't reach the survivability of other sets even WITH pool powers and heavy IO slotting) as opposed to SR (which is one of the best).

That isn't even remotely true.   The problem with Regen is that it can't tank alphas.  It never could.   And with all the massive +DEF and Set IO bonuses, +4x8 is the norm and Regen just can't take those DPS spikes. 

 

Quote

 as opposed to SR (which is one of the best).

 

SR isn't even in the top 5.  Go play the set without getting 50% S/L and 10% +DEF from Weave and Manuevers and use non-Set IOs.   You will die...quickly, unless you're fighting +0s or relying on candy.  The set has no way to heal itself and gets pulverized by AV's who hit right through its resists.  Other sets are waaaaaay more survivable.   SR is only workable because players can push beyond the soft cap and get massive S/L resist on-build.    I had a Katana/SR Brute run some +4x8 with me against some of those Victoria's.  Without Maneuvers (But with Tough and Weave), she died in like 15 seconds....LOL.   

 

Quote

Change the SR power orders so you get AoE defense at a reasonable level, and leave everything else alone.

No.   The set can't handle the endurance drain early on.  I forgot, that's whey they don't give you Evasion earlier.   By giving SR all the passives, it grants the sets a more usable form of AoE protection...scaling resists and that paltry 5% and overall survibility.  There's no point in another toggle that just drains you.   By 35, you've either slotted up Stamina or your primary and are killing more efficiently.   But there's a reason why Shield combined both AoE and Ranged into one toggle.   So no, on reflection, moving Evasion earlier in the set doesn't solve the problems, it makes them worse.  Now I remember why they didn't do it on Live.

 

 

But talk is talk....the Devs need to run the numbers.   Compare the secondaries and tell us where SR ends up when they rely only upon themselves.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 29, 2022 by Blackjoy

[Rudra]

Where do the sets end up when they rely only upon themselves? Dead. I don't run my Dark Armor or my Invul or anything else without adding something to build them up. That means set bonuses and pool powers. So why should SR be able to run without the same things?

[Outrider_01]

1 hour ago, Blackjoy said:

Go start an SR at level 1 and tell me how comparatively indestructible the set its?   

Name one set except that is indestructible at level 1?

 

Except Regen as a set which is moot, everyone has Rest  *rimshot* Exit stage left

[Wavicle]

I don’t generally like to respond with L2P or git gud, but I feel like I’m not being left with much.

Edited May 29, 2022 by Wavicle

[Outrider_01]

54 minutes ago, Blackjoy said:

No.   The set can't handle the endurance drain early on.  I forgot, that's whey they don't give you Evasion earlier.   By giving SR all the passives, it grants the sets a more usable form of AoE protection...scaling resists and that paltry 5% and overall survibility.  There's no point in another toggle that just drains you.   By 35, you've either slotted up Stamina or your primary and are killing more efficiently.   But there's a reason why Shield combined both AoE and Ranged into one toggle.   So no, on reflection, moving Evasion earlier in the set doesn't solve the problems, it makes them worse.  Now I remember why they didn't do it on Live.

Assuming ED type slotting, level 50 IO (unboosted, don't care if you want to min/max)

• 3 Toggles  - 4 slot, 3 Defense 1 End
• 3 Passive - 3 slot, Defense
• Endurance cost .78
  • - With Sprint toggled on, using base slot and 1 endurance reduction
    • 3/4 of 1 endurance point
      • Did you slot endurance reduction in your attacks? 🤔
• With both Tough and Weave
• Endurance cost is 1.21
  •  - With Sprint toggled on, using base slot and 1 endurance reduction
    • 1 1/4  endurance point
      • Did you slot endurance reduction in your attacks? 🤔
• Thats doable even with SO if you want to macho it and play Iron Man Hard Mode
  • (Blue Steel Mode can only be beaten by Chuck Norris)

The strengths of Super Reflexes is +60% resist across the board when going MoG mode, low endurance cost, and you can shift your extra slots to primary and power pool selections.  Ninjitsu goes crunch if defense fails, Shield is also limited and can't use 6 primaries which is a weakness itself (sort of pseudo weakness).  Energy Aura...meh its got typed defense but its heal blows because its part regen which fails when a -regen hits it, so its in the ninjitsu category.  Tried Bio, either I did it wrong or not but its too crunchy; maybe need controls like knock downs.

 

Hell if you want something different, roll Something /Fire Armor and skip burn; the resists on in the same category as SR in my opinion so its a glass cannon vs anything not fire.  I have a SM/Lethal defense build and getting a kick out of the damage bonus from Fiery Embrance, 

 

Kinetic/Fire gets 150% damage from KM side which its basicallly a combo system to maintain. Swap the damage bonuses between Embrace and Power Siphon

 

DM/Fire gets a simple drain +DMG for 30 seconds, Embrace is 20 seconds. Over lap damage bonuses

 

A brute can go MA/Fire and skip eagle claw, asinainly fast attack chain with sub 1.5 sec animation kicks and only animation redraw is when you put the shoe back on.

 

Edit: hit submit too soon

Edited May 29, 2022 by Outrider_01

[Stormwalker]

2 hours ago, Blackjoy said:

 

But talk is talk....the Devs need to run the numbers.   Compare the secondaries and tell us where SR ends up when they rely only upon themselves.

 

 

That isn't how we play the sets, though.  We pl;ay the sets complete with pool powers, and IO's, and all of that.  You don't balance in a vacuum, you balance based on the whole of the game and how things interact with each other.  If you don't do that, then when you add in those factors, things that seemed balanced by themselves suddenly become hideously over-or-underpowered.

 

But I'm not going to argue with you anymore.  I disagree with almost everything you have said, and there's no point in going back and forth when we can't agree on the basic facts of the situation, because obviously we are going to draw different conclusions if we can't even agree on that much!  The only thing you've said that I agree with is that SR below 35 has problems, and there's a simple solution to that: rearrange the order of powers in SR so that you get your AoE defense at a reasonable level.

[Wobegone]

This is such a strange complaint.  Aren't most secondaries late bloomers on Scrappers?  

Edited May 29, 2022 by Ignatz the Insane

[Stormwalker]

20 minutes ago, Ignatz the Insane said:

This is such a strange complaint.  Aren't most secondaries late bloomers on Scrappers?  

 

SR is, in fact, particularly bad in this regard.  It can be a real slog to level.  Speaking as someone who just leveled a Claw/SR to 50 over the last couple of weeks.

 

The payoff at the end is worth it, but I'd still be pretty happy if they rearranged the powers so the AoE defense comes a little earlier.

 

Also, it can really suck if you have to exemp below 35 for any reason.

Edited May 29, 2022 by Stormwalker

[Bill Z Bubba]

8 hours ago, Blackjoy said:

"and a reasonable build?"  How does SR compare to the other secondaries when none of them can rely on Tough, Weave, and a bunch of Set IO procs to cover endurance?   Because that is how the sets are suppose to be balanced.  Let's see how SR fairs then.   What most people on these forums aren't groking is that their build is good...it's not SR.

 

Again, hogwash. Let's compare the sets in a void. No pools. SOs only. Which is dumb by the way, I take tough/weave/cj or maneuvers/hasten on ALL of my meleers AND I start slotting IOs as soon as I'm able.

 

SR gets 30.42% MRA Defense and scaling resists 0-20% at lvl 4 with Agile, then 0-40% at 16 with Dodge and finally 0-60% at 28 with Lucky and capped DDR at 35 with Evasion.

Inv gets 15.21% SLFCEN Defense with 3 enemies in range, 50% DDR, 52.65% SL Resist, 23.4% FCENT Resist and DP's HP buff is only up 2/3 of the time.

Shield gets 21.3% MRA Defense, 17.55% SLFCENT Resists, an extra attack and a passive HP boost with 52.73% DDR with only single stacked AD.

Ice gets with 3 enemies in range, 23.92% SLEN Defense, 4.03% DC Defense, 24% Fire Resist, Capped Cold Resist and Hoarfrost's + HP again only up 2/3 of the time.

 

Your assessment of what these sets can do out of the box with SOs and no pools is drastically wrong.

[Bill Z Bubba]

8 hours ago, Blackjoy said:

SR isn't even in the top 5.  Go play the set without getting 50% S/L and 10% +DEF from Weave and Manuevers and use non-Set IOs.   You will die...quickly, unless you're fighting +0s or relying on candy.  The set has no way to heal itself and gets pulverized by AV's who hit right through its resists.  Other sets are waaaaaay more survivable.   SR is only workable because players can push beyond the soft cap and get massive S/L resist on-build.    I had a Katana/SR Brute run some +4x8 with me against some of those Victoria's.  Without Maneuvers (But with Tough and Weave), she died in like 15 seconds....LOL.

 

Then she was poorly built or poorly played or both. (Where poorly played can mean as little as not being aware of enemy tohit buffs.)

 

We have IOs. We can start slotting Perf Shifters at 17. Even SO endreds are an actual thing that can be slotted in both toggles and attacks. But even if that was an issue to be concerned with in regards to changing the power order, they could buff the passives slightly, make them available first, and nerf the toggles by the same amount to keep it where it's at.

 

You're gettin nowhere here, man.

[Bill Z Bubba]

6 hours ago, Stormwalker said:

SR is, in fact, particularly bad in this regard.  It can be a real slog to level.  Speaking as someone who just leveled a Claw/SR to 50 over the last couple of weeks.

 

The payoff at the end is worth it, but I'd still be pretty happy if they rearranged the powers so the AoE defense comes a little earlier.

 

Also, it can really suck if you have to exemp below 35 for any reason.

 

And it was due to silly design decisions early on. Scrappers were supposed to live on the periphery with the tank dealing with all the AoE, so the devs didn't consider it a problem. They were, of course, wrong, and didn't really begin to see how bad their decisions were until after ED/GDN completely farked over SR and they HAD to add the scaling damres to bring it back up to par. But even then, they knew the power order was broken and made some attempt to fix it for brutes and then used that for tanks but stupidly never fixed it for scrappers or fixed it correctly for any of them.

 

So, to wrap up, claims that SR lags behind other armors with end game builds on the mitigation front: totally baseless.

SR lags behind the other armors on the damage front: completely true. It's down there with Regen on buff damage output but slightly ahead thanks to +20% recharge from Quickness.

SR's power order is borked and has been since go live: completely true.

SR costs more end than other sets: just plain wrong.

SR is a one trick pony: Also wrong. It's a hybrid set that's more defense than damres just as Invul is a hybrid set with more damres than defense. Being a defense set, it gets hit with FAR fewer debuffs so needs less tools to deal with them.

 

Changes I wouldn't argue against:

 

Change the power order as listed before:

Focused Fighting

Focused Senses

Evasion

Practiced Brawler

Dodge

Agile

Lucky

Quickness

Elude

 

Give Practiced Brawler the Sentinel Master Brawler treatment.

 

Changes I would argue against:

Pretty much anything else.

[arcane]

9 hours ago, Blackjoy said:

This isn't about performing "up to its potential," this is about how the set performs comparatively.

 

Well it's great to see some posters have some integrity.   And if HC is going to fix TA, which did not need fixing, they need to address SR.  It shouldn't suck below 35 any more than any other set, and it does.

"and a reasonable build?"  How does SR compare to the other secondaries when none of them can rely on Tough, Weave, and a bunch of Set IO procs to cover endurance?   Because that is how the sets are suppose to be balanced.  Let's see how SR fairs then.   What most people on these forums aren't groking is that their build is good...it's not SR.

 

That isn't even remotely true.   The problem with Regen is that it can't tank alphas.  It never could.   And with all the massive +DEF and Set IO bonuses, +4x8 is the norm and Regen just can't take those DPS spikes. 

 

 

SR isn't even in the top 5.  Go play the set without getting 50% S/L and 10% +DEF from Weave and Manuevers and use non-Set IOs.   You will die...quickly, unless you're fighting +0s or relying on candy.  The set has no way to heal itself and gets pulverized by AV's who hit right through its resists.  Other sets are waaaaaay more survivable.   SR is only workable because players can push beyond the soft cap and get massive S/L resist on-build.    I had a Katana/SR Brute run some +4x8 with me against some of those Victoria's.  Without Maneuvers (But with Tough and Weave), she died in like 15 seconds....LOL.   

 

No.   The set can't handle the endurance drain early on.  I forgot, that's whey they don't give you Evasion earlier.   By giving SR all the passives, it grants the sets a more usable form of AoE protection...scaling resists and that paltry 5% and overall survibility.  There's no point in another toggle that just drains you.   By 35, you've either slotted up Stamina or your primary and are killing more efficiently.   But there's a reason why Shield combined both AoE and Ranged into one toggle.   So no, on reflection, moving Evasion earlier in the set doesn't solve the problems, it makes them worse.  Now I remember why they didn't do it on Live.

 

 

But talk is talk....the Devs need to run the numbers.   Compare the secondaries and tell us where SR ends up when they rely only upon themselves.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I regret to inform you that you don't know what you're talking about. Sorry homie 😞

[Wavicle]

Imagine thinking SR needs more help than TA did.

[Bill Z Bubba]

Another change I might not argue against too much: spread the scaling damres out amongst all 6 +defense powers. 0-10% each. Even with my power order change above, you'd still end up being able to get 0-40% by level 16 with Dodge just as you can now if you take Agile and Dodge by 16.