Devs, Super Reflexes in need of an update....

[arcane]

This guy is a quality troll to have so many of you still convinced he can maybe still be receptive to facts and logic by page 7. 

[Blackjoy]

2 hours ago, Doomguide2005 said:

But the primaries are going to similarly effect performance. 

If the Primaries are balanced correctly, then their effect should be negligible, or within tolerance.   One can expect that there will be some synergy with some sets, but the net benefit should still be within one sigma or whatever the performance band the devs expect. 

 

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Dark Melee with its presence of Siphon Life is already attractive to sets, like SR, with no heal or Katana with a resistance set providing a boost to defense through Divine Avalanche.   

 

And sets like MA or Claws have other benefits like Build up or higher DPS chains or soft mitigation that should provide a boost to XP/Hour or survivability that other sets can't.   A set like Regen can leverage Dark Melee just about as well as SR.   But yes, you absolutely run stats to see if that's true.  Is DM way better for SR?  Does it put SR out of tolerance?  They run the numbers to figure that out.

 

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And those choices just like deciding to take Aid Self or Weave should get "normalized"

Yes...they should get normalized.  I am just reminding the devs to do it.   It won't happen automatically.

 

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That and the data collected by whomever is going to inevitably include pool choices, I don't see how it's possible to do otherwise.

Because they can use data filters to exclude any specific variable from data.   They can look at all the DM/SR scrappers that don't take Tough if they wanted to.   At higher levels, it would be harder to find scrappers without Tough and Weave, or put another way, the amount of data points would be smaller.  

 

 

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If you attempt to take a secondary truly naked you aren't really getting a baseline of in-game function.

 

The secondaries, just like the primaries, were designed based on formulas and design concepts.   If you are going to figure out how accurate those formulas are, then you'd need to see the outcome naked=unbiased by other variables.   This would allow you to adjust your formulas accordingly.   But the formulas are only good to a point, as you suggest.  The LIve devs had to use real data to fine tune the sets when something proved to be out of tolerance.

 

 

Edited June 7, 2022 by Blackjoy

[TheZag]

Im feeling like if super reflexes was so bad that the devs will all their data would have addressed it during the retail run.  What i remember was super reflexes was so invincible that they gave the eyeball enemy in the shadow shard insane amounts of +tohit just so there would be something that could hit super reflexes.  Im not aware of any other enemy being made to specifically be a counter to a single power set.

 

And i skipped like 6 pages so my bad if this was already said.

[Rudra]

40 minutes ago, TheZag said:

Im feeling like if super reflexes was so bad that the devs will all their data would have addressed it during the retail run.  What i remember was super reflexes was so invincible that they gave the eyeball enemy in the shadow shard insane amounts of +tohit just so there would be something that could hit super reflexes.  Im not aware of any other enemy being made to specifically be a counter to a single power set.

 

And i skipped like 6 pages so my bad if this was already said.

Nope, that has not been mentioned yet. Just like the existence of auto-hit enemy attacks has not been mentioned. And while I do not know this is why they were put in, I am under the impression they were put in to deal with SRs as well.

Edited June 7, 2022 by Rudra
Edited to add missing letter.

[Infinitum]

1 hour ago, Blackjoy said:

If the Primaries are balanced correctly, then their effect should be negligible, or within tolerance.   One can expect that there will be some synergy with some sets, but the net benefit should still be within one sigma or whatever the performance band the devs expect. 

 

 

And sets like MA or Claws have other benefits like Build up or higher DPS chains or soft mitigation that should provide a boost to XP/Hour or survivability that other sets can't.   A set like Regen can leverage Dark Melee just about as well as SR.   But yes, you absolutely run stats to see if that's true.  Is DM way better for SR?  Does it put SR out of tolerance?  They run the numbers to figure that out.

 

Yes...they should get normalized.  I am just reminding the devs to do it.   It won't happen automatically.

 

Because they can use data filters to exclude any specific variable from data.   They can look at all the DM/SR scrappers that don't take Tough if they wanted to.   At higher levels, it would be harder to find scrappers without Tough and Weave, or put another way, the amount of data points would be smaller.  

 

 

 

The secondaries, just like the primaries, were designed based on formulas and design concepts.   If you are going to figure out how accurate those formulas are, then you'd need to see the outcome naked=unbiased by other variables.   This would allow you to adjust your formulas accordingly.   But the formulas are only good to a point, as you suggest.  The LIve devs had to use real data to fine tune the sets when something proved to be out of tolerance.

 

 

There are plenty of us that have so many hours of playtime on SR that negates your premise that it has issues.  I literally have one on every melee AT and have no issues with it.

 

No heal- don't need it

No endurance- slot +end sets and build around it just like anything else.

 

Everything has to have a weakness to overcome.  SR doesn't have many - and ranks pretty high on my unkillable list - because IMO it is better than Rad on most high level content especially where debuffers of any kind are involved.

 

I don't need any formulas or data testing to tell me its super strong when i can literally walk out of the room when i am in the middle of +4/8 ITF - surrounded - make myself a sandwich - eat the sandwich and they still haven't brought me down when i come back to the screen - that tells me all i need to know.

 

Could an AV get lucky every now and then?  Sure - that's part of the set - and goes for any of the sets honestly, but that is the exception - not the rule.

 

Bottom line - if you are any bit capable in this game - you have to try really hard to die with SR.  That is an incontrovertible demonstrable fact.

[Marine X]

Have a SR/Savage Melee Tank currently at level 36, I have nothing negative to report, great set and works well with SM, no endurance issues or performance issues, but I haven't been to the Shadow Shard yet to get my pre-ordained spanking at the hands, Eyes of a watcher, can hardly wait.

Only Defeat out of 36 levels was obtaining the " Denial of Service " Badge in First Ward, forgot to properly prepare/buff, my bad, but got the badge anyway.

[Bill Z Bubba]

14 minutes ago, Marine X said:

Have a SR/Savage Melee Tank currently at level 36, I have nothing negative to report, great set and works well with SM, no endurance issues or performance issues, but I haven't been to the Shadow Shard yet to get my pre-ordained spanking at the hands, Eyes of a watcher, can hardly wait.

Only Defeat out of 36 levels was obtaining the " Denial of Service " Badge in First Ward, forgot to properly prepare/buff, my bad, but got the badge anyway.

 

You know as well as I do... take the evil chompin eyeballs of doom out first and you're good to go. Especially at tank values. I honestly think the OP is only concerned with scrapper SR. Again, though, with all the tools accessible to us, be it from pool powers on the way up to 50 or incarnate powers after that, SR sits it a very fine place in the hierarchy of melee armor sets. I AM biased and I do place it higher than many, and I know fully well that my time with it has given me a particular feel for the set and how to use it. This fact is what gives me pause from the mockery of regen lovers cuz many of them have the exact same outlook/experience/etc with regen as I do SR.

 

Doesn't fully stop the mockery, of course. Cuz.... regen. I mean, c'mon, if you need Rune of Protection on your melee character, you're either doin something wrong or trying to solo Linea's 801 stuff.

[Luminara]

15 hours ago, Blackjoy said:

Yeah...I am going to tell you Arcana was largely full of herself.

 

You appear to be confusing yourself with @arcanaville.

 

@arcanaville spent hundreds of hours accumulating data samples in the tens of thousands, several times, in order to determine how things worked and verify, for her own edification, that they were, indeed, working.  You had to be shouted at to agree to one test, grudgingly, and have provided not a single iota of data, from that test or from any other.

 

@arcanaville isolated a temporal discrepancy which wasn't accounted for in animation times, root times, individual animation frames or anywhere else, and tracked it down to server ticks adding the unaccounted latency between expected use/recharge times and real use/recharge times (hence Arcanatime).  You?  You don't even know what your powers do in this game, much less how the engine works.

 

@arcanaville accounted for variables, all of the variables, and when something didn't add up, she dug until she found what was missing.  Then she shared what she did, how she did it and why.  You ignore variables, to the point of adamantly arguing against accounting for variables, and dismiss anything that doesn't fit within your predetermined conclusion.

 

@arcanaville recognized that the open communication line that Cryptic mandated between developers and players was there to be used, had the intelligence and foresight to determine which questions to ask, and the courtesy to share the answers with everyone.  You call that "inside information" and try to spin it as secretive and used only for personal glory.

 

@arcanaville was polite, reasonable and a little shy, and never acted like a pompous ass.  If anything, she was embarrassed by the constant attention and adulation that she didn't believe she deserved or warranted, and she stated on more than one occasion that she wasn't special and that it was what everyone else was doing that was noteworthy.  She exuded modesty even when she was riled up.  You, on the other hand, have given the impression of being arrogantly convinced of your own grandiosity and so closed-minded that it's nauseating.

 

@arcanaville was the first one to stand up and call herself out when she made mistakes.  She didn't wait for someone to catch her with her pants down, she had the courage to say, "I was wrong", to correct what she'd screwed up, and to make sure everyone knew.  You refuse to admit that you're fallible, even in the face of overwhelming evidence.

 

@arcanaville was literate, and her posts displayed the same attention to detail that her testing and information dissemination showed.  Reading what you write is like stabbing oneself in the eye with a rusty spork.  Do you even proofread, bro?

 

Don't even try to compare yourself to @arcanaville, and don't imagine that you can get away with talking shit about her simply because she hasn't posted in a while.  Wrong fucking line to cross.

[Bill Z Bubba]

@Luminara That was well fucking said. I chose to not respond simply because it pissed me off way too much.

Edited June 7, 2022 by Bill Z Bubba

[Blackjoy]

OMFG Arcana was the most pompous person on the forums.  She thought she was smarter than every other person on the planet and constantly bragged about how much she got paid in her consulting job.   Yes, she bragged about computing some  number out to X decimal points and it was totally irrelevant.  

 

I know Arcana well.  And I know how full of shit she was outside of computing numbers that amounted to jack shit.   Yes, she figured out that devs didn't account for variable in power activation times.  BFD.   I can bet you my life that 99% of population of players who didn't read the forums had no clue when they made those changes.   

 

I am the one that got the devs to add +RES to SR, despite Arcana arguing against it.   You wanna worship her, be my guest.  But you aren't going to shove her crap down my throat.

 

Edited June 7, 2022 by Blackjoy

[Bill Z Bubba]

5 minutes ago, Blackjoy said:

She thought she was smarter than every other person on the planet

 

She is absolutely smarter than me. She is absolutely smarter than you.

 

5 minutes ago, Blackjoy said:

I know Arcana well.

 

Liar.

Edited June 7, 2022 by Bill Z Bubba

[Blackjoy]

Did I hit soft spot Bill?

[Bill Z Bubba]

2 minutes ago, Blackjoy said:

Did I hit soft spot Bill?

 

Nah, man. I'm just smart enough to recognize who's smarter than I am.

 

And who's stupider.

[Infinitum]

14 minutes ago, Blackjoy said:

Yes, she figured out that devs didn't account for variable in power activation times.  BFD.   I can bet you my life that 99% of population of players who didn't read the forums had no clue when they made those changes.   

The Energy Melee nerf.... Uh. Yes... We felt that one.

[Infinitum]

18 minutes ago, Blackjoy said:

She thought she was smarter than every other person on the planet

She wouldn't be far off. I would say 99% of the planet at least.

 

Nothing wrong with thinking something you know to be true.

[Infinitum]

20 minutes ago, Blackjoy said:

OMFG Arcana was the most pompous person on the forums.  She thought she was smarter than every other person on the planet and constantly bragged about how much she got paid in her consulting job.   Yes, she bragged about computing some  number out to X decimal points and it was totally irrelevant.  

 

I know Arcana well.  And I know how full of shit she was outside of computing numbers that amounted to jack shit.   Yes, she figured out that devs didn't account for variable in power activation times.  BFD.   I can bet you my life that 99% of population of players who didn't read the forums had no clue when they made those changes.   

 

I am the one that got the devs to add +RES to SR, despite Arcana arguing against it.   You wanna worship her, be my guest.  But you aren't going to shove her crap down my throat.

 

 

 

Sorry, but any credibility - any avenue you had on this topic you lost with this post.

 

There was no need to go here even if you believed all of this BS.

[Blackjoy]

There is always a need to call out false gods when they arise.  Arcana had so many people cowed and intimidated that no one would call her out, even when she was blatantly wrong.   I'm done talking about her.  

 

This thread isn't about her.  It's about asking the devs to run the numbers.   Maybe I'm wrong, maybe SR is within tolerance, but others have admitted to problems below 35, so there is something to investigate.

Edited June 7, 2022 by Blackjoy

[Stormwalker]

48 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

@Luminara That was well fucking said. I chose to not respond simply because it pissed me off way too much.

 

Seconded, and likewise.

 

And before you get into the question of whether I think she's smarter than me?  Very few people that I have ever met are smarter than me.  That's not a boast, it's a statement of fact.  But Arcanaville is someone who clearly is pretty damn intelligent, to the point that I'd hesitate to try to make such comparisons.  More than that, she has put in the work, which I have not, and therefore her conclusions demand respect.

 

As for "she's been wrong before", who hasn't?  Ain't none of us perfect.

Edited June 7, 2022 by Stormwalker

[Infinitum]

1 minute ago, Blackjoy said:

I'm done talking about her.

Yes.... Yes you are indeed.

[Luminara]

36 minutes ago, Blackjoy said:

 

 

[Infinitum]

This blows my mind - honestly. 

 

In Babylon 5 terms we are all younger races while Arcanaville is the Walkers of Sigma 957.

 

There just is no equal in City of Heroes history.

 

To denigrate that... Unimaginable.  Its not hero worship either. Its giving credit where credit is well deserved.

[Bill Z Bubba]

16 minutes ago, Blackjoy said:

There is always a need to call out false gods when they arise.  Arcana had so many people cowed and intimidated that no one would call her out, even when she was blatantly wrong.   I'm done talking about her.  

 

This thread isn't about her.  It's about asking the devs to run the numbers.   Maybe I'm wrong, maybe SR is within tolerance, but others have admitted to problems below 35, so there is something to investigate.

 

And yet you had to make her a focal point. Obviously due to some past grievance. She's not a god. She's just a human better at this than you ever will be.

[Spaghetti Betty]

Forget Six Flags, this thread has been the greatest rollercoaster ever.

[lemming]

Looks like the thread is spinning around the drain now.

 

I find SR works great on the could chars I have with it, though I do have an aversion to t9s that crash that hard.   My tank zipped up to 50 really quick using the DFB->TFs->ITF method, and did a couple Quarterfields where the eyes suck, but if they get taken out quick, everything else is fine...

[Stormwalker]

4 minutes ago, lemming said:

Looks like the thread is spinning around the drain now.

 

I find SR works great on the could chars I have with it, though I do have an aversion to t9s that crash that hard.   My tank zipped up to 50 really quick using the DFB->TFs->ITF method, and did a couple Quarterfields where the eyes suck, but if they get taken out quick, everything else is fine...

 

Eyeballs, DE quartz emanators, and Nemesis with stacked Vengeance.  Those are the banes of SR.

 

This doesn't stop me from running Nemesis missions on x8, but it does mean I'm careful to take out all the minions before I start chomping lt's, which slows me down a whole lot since I can't just Spin/Shockwave down the spawn.  Nothing like a crowd of 10 minions each with 4 vengeance stacks to kill you real quick.