Rebuild Praetoria in the image of Primal Earth, and make an Oblique Task Force equivalent to the Dr Aeon Task Force

[Panthonca7034]

As the topic says, I'd like to see Primal Earth and Praetoria meshed a little more (be it new Praetorian Contacts for Task Forces or Praetorian Enemy groups showing up in Primal Earth when you complete certain storyarcs), and Praetoria rebuilt with the help of Primal Earth, and of course create some sort of alternate Primal Earth Apocalyptic Storyline complete with NPCs to explore (preferrably not just Vanguard)

 

Here's some graphical cues from Senticon to illustrate what I mean :)

 

 

Then for the climactic moment of truth

 

And of course a moment when Primals, Loyalists, and Resistance fight Hamidon side by side, and shoulder to shoulder 

 

 

Praetoria's overdue for a little overhaul and the addition of a Level 50 zone, similar to Peregrine Island and Grandville, maybe create a zone with Devouring Earth Infested, and some heroic level 50 factions trying to keep what's left of Praetoria together (Level 50 Carnival Of Light and Powers Division survivors maybe).

 

Just a thought

Edited May 31, 2022 by Panthonca7034
additional points

[Rudra]

Before Praetoria can be rebuilt, Praetorian Hamidon has to be dealt with. Last Bastion is the only place I know of in Praetoria where humanity still has a foothold in there. Hamidon was basically wiped out humanity on Praetoria.

 

Edit: Well, there is First Ward, but its fate after you complete the arcs and it partially merges with Night Ward is unclear at the time of Last Bastion.

Edited May 31, 2022 by Rudra

[Panthonca7034]

8 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Before Praetoria can be rebuilt, Praetorian Hamidon has to be dealt with. Last Bastion is the only place I know of in Praetoria where humanity still has a foothold in there. Hamidon was basically wiped out humanity on Praetoria.

 

Having run through all the incarnate missions (from Belladonna to Marchand), seen/read all the dialogue, a lot of regions in Praetorian Earth are not mentioned, and I'm having a problem with just rolling with the "Hamidon wiped out everything, nuff said..." point because even Lamashtu and Serene proved to be a more serious threat than Hamidon in First/Night Ward, so with that said, I'm inclined to believe there's regions in Praetorian Earth that have survived the onslaught of the Hamidon. Hence my reasoning, which I've already referenced in another post.

Edited May 31, 2022 by Panthonca7034
added point of discussion

[Rudra]

I disagree. I think it is in the Last Bastion arc, but there is mention by Hamidon forces to each other that the remaining pockets of humanity are gone. And Lamashtu and Serene are dealt with before Hamidon gets angry that Tyrant failed to uphold his end of the deal and decided to renew his attacks on humanity.

 

I'm not saying "nuff said" either. I'm saying that given how the story about Praetoria stands, the first thing that would need to be done is to take the fight to Hamidon. Which was part of the reason for saving Last Bastion anyway. So before Praetoria can be rebuilt, the fight against Hamidon needs to get underway. The rebuilding can even be part of the assault as additional FOBs will be needed.

[Panthonca7034]

48 minutes ago, Rudra said:

I disagree. I think it is in the Last Bastion arc, but there is mention by Hamidon forces to each other that the remaining pockets of humanity are gone. And Lamashtu and Serene are dealt with before Hamidon gets angry that Tyrant failed to uphold his end of the deal and decided to renew his attacks on humanity.

 

I'm not saying "nuff said" either. I'm saying that given how the story about Praetoria stands, the first thing that would need to be done is to take the fight to Hamidon. Which was part of the reason for saving Last Bastion anyway. So before Praetoria can be rebuilt, the fight against Hamidon needs to get underway. The rebuilding can even be part of the assault as additional FOBs will be needed.

 

We can disagree all day and all night and nothing productive can come from it, but if we're going with your reasoning then I will simply say that Hamidon has already been dealt with then, at least as per this achievement.

 

https://archive.paragonwiki.com/wiki/Civilization's_Savior_Badge 

 

And so I return to the topic at hand, which is rebuilding Praetoria and creating an Oblique counterpart to the Dr Aeon Strike Force, which could involve an alternate Primal Earth nearly falling to the Praetorian and Primal Hamidons...

 

Edited May 31, 2022 by Panthonca7034
Adding another point

[Rudra]

Congratulations. You spoke with Paretorian Hamidon and defeated 2 Seeds of Hamidon and 3 Avatars of Hamidon. There are far more Avatars and Seeds in Praetoria in that single shot mission where you recover data from Mr. G. Whatever. I give up.

[Darmian]

4 hours ago, Rudra said:

Before Praetoria can be rebuilt, Praetorian Hamidon has to be dealt with. Last Bastion is the only place I know of in Praetoria where humanity still has a foothold in there. Hamidon was basically wiped out humanity on Praetoria.

 

Edit: Well, there is First Ward, but its fate after you complete the arcs and it partially merges with Night Ward is unclear at the time of Last Bastion.

I don't know about First Ward, but Night Ward was, and probably remains, DE free. So Cole only knows what sort of a life anyone who fled there has, but there may be people still there.

[Rudra]

I wasn't counting Night Ward as part of Praetoria since it slipped into the realm of the dead. That weird boundary where you can shift back and forth between First Ward and Night Ward makes for an interesting conundrum. You seem to have to be aware of the transition areas to know it is there and most of the First Ward denizens had no idea about it. Just the Carnies and those they shared that knowledge with to avoid Tyrant's forces. So most likely the Carnies and other Last Worders unable to reach a portal to Primal Earth despite Dark Watcher's and the Vanguard's attempts to save them would use the transition to escape to Night Ward.

 

And I have a hard time believing Hamidon would even care about anyone in Night Ward anyways since it is the realm of the dead. Which is where he wants to bury humantiy. I can yield to an argument about Night Ward being a good jumping off point.

 

Ooh! That could make for an interesting story! Did any First Ward denizens flee into Night Ward, what happened to them, and what comes next for them?

[Bay]

29 minutes ago, Darmian said:

but Night Ward was, and probably remains, DE free.

That's because Night Ward is a spirit realm. Not physical. Land of the Dead. A literal ghost town mirror version of First Ward. Night Ward is not a physical location that the Devouring Earth, let alone Hamidon itself, can just happen to wander across in their humanity slaughtering tour. It required magic to get there. It is, literally, the place where the spirits/souls of the dead collect/gather before being sent to their respective final resting place and, as such, is not exactly the kind of place that would make any sense to flee into. If anything, Night Ward would make more sense for a 'Return of Mot' storyline, and even then it's somewhat of a stretch. 

 

As for the original topic... Praetoria just needs to be left alone, in its current condition. Tyrant nuked it, Hamidon resumed butchering humanity, and Wrongbow flamethrowers can't help fix anything. Now... a series of Shadow Shart-like zones consisting of Ripples? Shut up and take my money. Make one of those Praetorian-esque? I'll stand in line to ride that at least once.

[Rudra]

16 minutes ago, Bay said:

If anything, Night Ward would make more sense for a 'Return of Mot' storyline, and even then it's somewhat of a stretch. 

It wouldn't make any sense at all actually. Mot isn't dead. Mot isn't even in the spirit realm. Mot is basically trapped in himself on Primal Earth feeding on himself. A Praetorian Mot though? Since each dimension seems to have their own gods if I understand what the Rikti did in their own reality right? That is a scary possibility.

[Darmian]

45 minutes ago, Bay said:

That's because Night Ward is a spirit realm. Not physical. Land of the Dead.

It's a bit of both though. The spirit realm overlapping First Ward. 

 

49 minutes ago, Bay said:

is not exactly the kind of place that would make any sense to flee into.

Hamidon has risen fully and by the way there's nukes going off just over there in Nova, you can stay here, or go to Primal...nope, too late for that.  Night Ward?  Two tickets please! Sense is relative in that case.

[huang3721]

Rebuilding Praetoria is hard. The Praetorians lost most of their landmass in the Hamidon War, and recently Hamidon destroyed the remaining habitable zone. It will take a tremendous amount of effort and time to undo the damage. Also, Hamidon is still at large there.

Rebuilding Praetoria in the image of Primal Earth is harder. It is their world. Why would they do that? Maybe they would put a statue of Freedom Phalanx/Vanguard as gratitude, but their city will be Imperial City 2.0.

New content is always good. Let's hope the devs have enough resources to put it together, whatever it is.

 

If an additional zone for the Praetorians is still out of reach, 
*standing on a soap box*
I also like to see Primal Earth and Praetoria meshed a little more. Come on. Some of the Praetorian refugees must have powers. The powers that be need to welcome these people rather than assimilate them. Don't erase their identity. Let them fly their color! Null the Gull allows Primal Earthlings to go wherever they want. Let the Praetorians do the same!
Apology for derailing the thread.

[Panthonca7034]

3 hours ago, Bay said:

As for the original topic... Praetoria just needs to be left alone, in its current condition. Tyrant nuked it, Hamidon resumed butchering humanity, and Wrongbow flamethrowers can't help fix anything. Now... a series of Shadow Shart-like zones consisting of Ripples? Shut up and take my money. Make one of those Praetorian-esque? I'll stand in line to ride that at least once.

 

Two words for this statement: Immature, and Irritating , makes it very difficult to take you seriously.... 

 

No use continuing this discussion... I'm disheartened to see such negative reactions to this idea, forget I even mentioned it and good time to lock the thread...

Edited June 1, 2022 by Panthonca7034
adding closing remarks

[Rudra]

Everything (s)he said is correct though. In the Magisterium iTrial, Tyrant literally nukes the Magisterium on Nova Praetoria. It was the last bastion Tyrant had against Primal Earth and Hamidon. In the Last Bastion arc, there is the single player mission where Anti-Matter blows up his reactors in Neutropolis to buy time against Hamidon so Metronome can escape to Anti-Matter's space station. In the mission with all the clones... of Mrs. Baker I think... there is an army of Avatars of Hamidon rampaging through what is left of Imperial City with a swarm of Seeds of Hamidon flying around above them and masses of giant tentacles that make Lusca and the Cimeroran Kraken look downright puny thrashing the city. All 3 sections of Praetoria City are gone. Two of them by nuclear detonation.

 

Longbow was not inclined to help the Praetorians, and it fell to the players to get Longbow to agree to help even take them as refugees. And Longbow barely is able to contend with Arachnos, so they can't even launch a dedicated assault on Praetorian Hamidon. They don't even have a FOB to try and do so from.

 

Arachnos sent forces into Praetoria, and you see some evidence that they failed several missions in the Last Bastion arc, as well as in Loyalist and Resistance arcs you play as a Praetorian. You see Arachnos withdrawing what forces of their own they can still save from Praetoria, abandoning a sizable portion if I understand the lore in a single player incarnate mission. There are several Carnival of Light and Resistance refugees in Grandville either as prisoners or converts as Praetoria falls to Hamidon in that same mission.

 

Vanguard made an undercover push to assist the Praetorians, but they had to withdraw in the face of Praetorian Hamidon too. And are presumably the ones that evacuated the New Praetorians to Primal Earth. Which they had to do because they could not stop Praetorian Hamidon. And even in the Last Bastion arc, Vanguard is abandoning Last Bastion, to the point where in the final mission the portal back to Primal Earth is shut down leaving you and Serpent Drummer trapped in Praetoria and the only way to get back is to save Last Bastion and prove that an incarnate at least can hold off Hamidon's forces. Not Hamidon, just the forces he sends thinking there is not sufficient resistance left in Last Bastion to devote more effort than 3 Avatars to.

 

So across all the Praetoria iTrials you see Praetoria fall first to the Primals, then to Tyrant himself, and finally to Hamidon in the post iTrial content.

 

Praetoria is an absolute mess. DE  and infected Praetorians loyal to Hamidon because of their corruption by Hamidon spores are everywhere except in Last Bastion which the player only manages to save by being an incarnate and using that incarnate power like Tyrant to power up the recovered Lambda turrets so they fire much more powerful blasts than normal to drop the Seed of Hamidon.

 

First Ward is never explicitly mentioned for outcome, but see the comment about Carnies in Grandville above.

 

There is no current opening to rebuild Praetoria until these situations are resolved.

[Greycat]

Reclaiming Praetoria would be something that even a "live" (IE, official, corporately supported and funded with full time development, art/asset and support teams) game would have to do over multiple issues, I'd say. It's just a massive project. Their Hamidon isn't the same as ours - insomuch as ours is basically contained and regularly pruned. (Yes, second zone has one in the Abyss, but ..  that's pretty much for mechanical reasons so redside had a hami raid.)

 

It would probably have to get stretched out *further* to prevent another case of burnout on the same storyline, so we'd be talking years of development *without* the team being volunteer. There are a lot of other storylines to continue (and create.) I mean, I'd see something like...  (making issue #s up)

 

I27: Prae hami tries either making contact with or eliminating Primal hami (somehow.) Everyone goes on alert.

I28: Cleaning up the Folly. Crey's folly and related arcs.

I29: something.

I30: Battle at the Bastion - start stepping otu from last bastion, dealing with a Hamidon that's continually evolved.

I31: Stuff... say, blood of the black stream.

I32: Things

I33: (expansion into more of Praetoria.)

 

etc. Keeping content interesting, spread among ranges and themes.

 

That itself would be 2-3 more years of live-team-type development, creating new assets and so forth. With our team (not saying this as a putdown, but "small, volunteer" and "missing some tools") that's probably at least a five year plan.

[starro]

As an old duffer …. Let Praetoria remain behind the game.  I would like to see new stories.   Praetoria is the past. 
 

if there is big zone development - finish off Khalisti Port or remodel an under used trial zone.  I am not sure the story or features, but make it a destination. 
 

if I had absolute control over time, money, space and resources - revamp those zones the Portal Corp goes to like Firebase Zulu. I have never found those zones flow or provide much “fun”

[JasperStone]

Stunning how we cannot have civil open discussions.

[Darmian]

I'd happily like to see "new" Praetorian content.  However, that new content would be more easily developed by adjusting the level caps across Nova Praetoria to Night Ward so as to not lock out content so fast as you level and having more Pre War content. A better segue (or any!) from Neutropolis into First Ward would be appreciated.  

Edited June 1, 2022 by Darmian

[El D]

3 hours ago, Darmian said:

I'd happily like to see "new" Praetorian content.  However, that new content would be more easily developed by adjusting the level caps across Nova Praetoria to Night Ward so as to not lock out content so fast as you level and having more Pre War content. A better segue (or any!) from Neutropolis into First Ward would be appreciated.  

 

While tweaking the Goldside level ranges so folks can actually run through the pre-existing content without getting locked out of arcs seems like a good change to make, I'm pretty sure any future Praetorian content will be focused on the Praetors finding their way on Primal Earth (branching off from Provost Marchand story arc in Brickstown). That's also if any Praetorian stuff even gets focused on, given that there's a ton of Praetorian content as-is. While I'm not opposed to more Goldside stuff, when it comes to the Pre-War... the iTrials are over, as is the Praetorian War. The game had already moved on from the Pre-War content before shutdown (as had most of the players, given how empty the zones were/are). Pre-War Goldside is, effectively, a time capsule at this point narratively speaking. Any new content set in Praetoria would have to be about taking the fight to Super Hamidon, or some kind of dimensional breach where Super Hamidon brings that chaos to Primal Earth like what @Greycat posted.

Edited June 1, 2022 by El D

[Darmian]

19 minutes ago, El D said:

Any new content set in Praetoria would have to be about taking the fight to Super Hamidon, or some kind of dimensional breach where Super Hamidon brings that chaos to Primal Earth like what @Greycat posted.

 

Why?  Why not both?

 

For that matter I want to see more stories set in Kings Row, I want to see more stories set in Mercy, and I want to see more stories set in Nova/Imperial/Neutropolis/First Ward/Night Ward.  What's the difference?  More stories is more stories. And I imagine having them pre War is a damn sight easier to build than a super Hamidon. "Well, we know how it ends."  Yep. I know how Darth Vader meets his end but I'm still enjoying what I've seen of the Obi Wan Kenobi series so far.  I know what happened in 1945 but I'll still watch "Saving Private Ryan".

 

This isn't an attack on you, @El D or @Greycat, sure I want to see everything move forward, we all do. But I don't want to be in a situation where the only new content is now in KW.  (Hopefully all that will be cool though!)  I got a little soapboxy there.  Calmer now!

[Greycat]

14 minutes ago, Darmian said:

This isn't an attack on you, @El D or @Greycat, sure I want to see everything move forward, we all do. But I don't want to be in a situation where the only new content is now in KW.  (Hopefully all that will be cool though!)  I got a little soapboxy there.  Calmer now!

 

If you look at my post (since I'm scratching my head on why you would think I'd see it as an attack on me, on top of me not being particularly invested in the idea,) I specifically put in an example of development on a rotation - both to avoid burnout and have other development get spotlight time.  I *still* want to see old abandoned content get attention (the aforementioned blood of the black stream.)

[Darmian]

9 minutes ago, Greycat said:

 

If you look at my post (since I'm scratching my head on why you would think I'd see it as an attack on me, on top of me not being particularly invested in the idea,) I specifically put in an example of development on a rotation - both to avoid burnout and have other development get spotlight time.  I *still* want to see old abandoned content get attention (the aforementioned blood of the black stream.)

Well, I did launch into a screed, which is partly my own soapbox, and I just wanted it made clear that that rantette was not aimed at anyone, just me spouting off 🙂

[El D]

40 minutes ago, Darmian said:

This isn't an attack on you, @El D or @Greycat, sure I want to see everything move forward, we all do. But I don't want to be in a situation where the only new content is now in KW.  (Hopefully all that will be cool though!)  I got a little soapboxy there.  Calmer now!

 

Absolutely not seeing it as an attack! ^_^ You're perfectly fine.

 

I'm not opposed to the idea at all. I would be glad to have any new content (Goldside or not, Pre-War or Post), I just don't think Pre-War stuff specifically is likely given Homecoming's apparent development strategies of 'continue from where the Live game left off' crossed with 'filling in content gaps.' It just seems like those conflict with the nature of Pre-War Praetorian content, especially when Pre-War Goldside specifically got an expansion and multiple zones/story arcs for it (plus the follow-up task forces/iTrials/story arcs that end all the set up the Pre-War stuff provided). Since it's not completely devoid of content like say, the Hazard zones are, or a specific type of content CoH was lacking in (like the Dr. Aeon ST/Hard Mode for IOed out Incarnates), it just doesn't seem like it'd be a priority.

 

As for the comparison to King's Row/Mercy, I think the main difference is that the blueside/redside zones are active constants, rather static parts of a specific, finished narrative. The Pre-War Goldside zones are the early chapters of contained story whose ending has already come to pass, whereas King's Row is more... an evolving setting to host story arcs. King's Row's content was evolved (the Skulls stuff/New Vindicators) not because it had more or less room for arcs, but because the arcs in King's Row don't serve as an ending the zone itself. King's Row has story arcs, but Pre-War Praetoria is its story arcs.

[Panthonca7034]

3 minutes ago, Krimson said:

Here's how I could see it going.

 

Mender Silos is up to shenanigans and somehow, Galaxy City is restored as per a comment I made in another thread.

 

Dream Doctor has had enough of his arch-nemesis, and decides to make good on his threat to rend Ourobouros asunder. 

 

Space/Time ends up with a new orifice, leaving cracks in the Continuum.

 

Praetorians in the past now find they have access to Ourobouros. Now they can use those Pillars of Ice and Fire without needing one in a base. 

 

Praetorians also have access to connected realms such as the Shadow Shard, and the Echo Zones. 

 

Praetoria itself, on the verge of being an Echo, now has new life as Space/Time energy surges into it.

 

Half a dozen players would take advantage of this content, including myself, while dozens more /jranger it. 

 

I can roll with that, a long as NO BATTALION is ever mentioned, I'm not open to the Battalion 

 

2 hours ago, El D said:

 

While tweaking the Goldside level ranges so folks can actually run through the pre-existing content without getting locked out of arcs seems like a good change to make, I'm pretty sure any future Praetorian content will be focused on the Praetors finding their way on Primal Earth (branching off from Provost Marchand story arc in Brickstown). That's also if any Praetorian stuff even gets focused on, given that there's a ton of Praetorian content as-is. While I'm not opposed to more Goldside stuff, when it comes to the Pre-War... the iTrials are over, as is the Praetorian War. The game had already moved on from the Pre-War content before shutdown (as had most of the players, given how empty the zones were/are). Pre-War Goldside is, effectively, a time capsule at this point narratively speaking. Any new content set in Praetoria would have to be about taking the fight to Super Hamidon, or some kind of dimensional breach where Super Hamidon brings that chaos to Primal Earth like what @Greycat posted.

 

The idea that I was trying to illustrate with the screenshots (which I made with Senticon or Titan Icon) was more for a scenario within said Oblique Aeon Taskforce (Counterpart to the Aeon Strike Force) in which an alternate Primal Earth you fail to save Last Bastion, The Hamidon uses Clockwork to operate the portal, and then emerges into The Hive (North of Woodvale) where it A. absorbs the Primal Hamidon or B. Convinces him to merge, and then the onslaught begins in Primal Earth as life itself is in peril.

 

Said alternate primal earth could collapse just as the alternate Rogue Isles Earth in the Aeon SF would, or it could actually be saved and the Hamidon stopped (cue from the Lady Grey Task Force).

 

Just throwing it out there

[The_Warpact]

I'd be down for 1 zone and it to be the home of the Praetorian Hamidon. Its time to vs that big tentacle jello mold.