Unlocking (some) Level-Locked Content

[Completist]

I suggest opening some level-locked zones and badges. 

 

PvP Zones - Bloody Bay (minimum 15, level set to 25), Siren's Call (20/30), Warburg (30/38).

 

Is there a good reason for these PvP zones to be locked, or staggered the way they are? Maybe in the early days of CoV, they were staggered to prevent overcrowding. But in reality few players engage in PvP, especially in the lower level zones. What's the harm in the allowing all levels to experience that content (or 15+ if new players getting out of their depth is really a concern)? Non-optimized builds will go in and get ganked no matter what the lower cap is; the more the merrier. Recluse's Victory would remain endgame content. 

Accolades - Archmage (21), Freedom Phalanx Reserve Member (21), Conspiracy Theorist (30), Vanguard (35); Also RWZ Day job badge.

 

Some accolade powers have level caps, some don't; It seems arbitrary. Is it game-breaking to have "early" access to the Crey Pistol (e.g.)? Especially considering the investment required to gain the prerequisite badges. Leveling up is already the core advancement pathway, no need to lock exploration and collecting into it. Imagine the reverse: "You can't level up until you've finished your patron arc". It's overly restrictive and unnecessary. 

 

If anyone can suggest reasoning for why the limits are good, I'd love to hear it. But to me they are a relic of dusty MMO design principles. 

[Glacier Peak]

It's worked like this for the life of the games, there hasn't been a compelling reason to change it. 

[Luminara]

1 hour ago, Completist said:

Is there a good reason for these PvP zones to be locked, or staggered the way they are?

 

Yes.  To provide some measure of parity by removing a potential difference of 12-35 levels between characters by normalizing the level at which potential combatants face one another.

 

2 hours ago, Completist said:

Some accolade powers have level caps, some don't; It seems arbitrary. Is it game-breaking to have "early" access to the Crey Pistol (e.g.)?

 

The craptastic Immob, no.  But level restrictions on accolades were implemented for the purpose of giving the developers some base from which to work when designing content and setting the difficulty for that content.  Same reason we're restricted to four power pools, pool powers have minimum level requirements, powers unlock at specific levels, slots unlock at other specific levels... some structure has to exist, or content development is impossible.

[Greycat]

Bloody Bay's *already* problematic with the possibility of a level 15 (barely slotted, few good sets to deal with, certainly not fully IOd in anything) dealing with an exemped (might be "level 25," but up to level 30 powers, PVP sets, purples, more inspirations, etc.) 50. We don't need to widen the range.  And we don't need to introduce that to the other zones, either.  Lower levels certainly can't handle the mobs in the other zones. Level 15 anything vs packs of Malta or Arachnoids in Warburg? Might as well just give an "Apply debt" temp power.

 

Zero reason to open these up.

[Completist]

Fair enough. Even with attuned enhancements and IO set improvements, a character of a low level doesn't have the powers and slots to build "viable, let alone competitive" in PvP zones. 

 

But is that "problematic" or just a win for the 50s who have more targets to murder? I have enjoyed flying around collecting badges in the Shadow Shard woefully underleveled, and hunting BP masks at level 15 in Bloody Bay, and don't see the harm in letting players make "poor choices."

 

Given the team-reliance of PvP in general I can see how it would be frustrating for real enthusiasts to deal with dead weight noobs dragging their team down, so I will concede the point. But TBH I think it would have little effect on PvP. How many actual level 30-but-not-38 players are there tearing up Warburg? How many below-50s are there? PvP is inherently endgame content, due to the economics of character building. 

 

So let's table the PvP talk and turn to Accolades. 

1 hour ago, Luminara said:

Level restrictions on accolades were implemented for the purpose of giving the developers some base from which to work when designing content and setting the difficulty for that content.  Same reason we're restricted to four power pools, pool powers have minimum level requirements, powers unlock at specific levels, slots unlock at other specific levels... some structure has to exist, or content development is impossible.

 

That sounds about right. I don't think the devs should unlock all the perks of character progression. In fact, I love negotiating those restrictions and optimizing characters at low levels. That's why I'm here. 

But Accolades already are locked by their difficulty in earning them. To deny that from someone who has gone through the trouble of say, killing 1000 rikti monkeys and accompanying higher-level friends on badge missions is, like I said in the OP, overly restrictive and unnecessary. How much work could it be to axe the level limits? Would it actually break anything? No accolade or temp power can match the effectiveness of a bigger team; is there really a danger in "unbalancing" some story arcs from the lower levels?

[Luminara]

14 minutes ago, Completist said:

But Accolades already are locked by their difficulty in earning them. To deny that from someone who has gone through the trouble of say, killing 1000 rikti monkeys and accompanying higher-level friends on badge missions is, like I said in the OP, overly restrictive and unnecessary.

 

And how much work is invested by the level 1 character who stands 100' away while the level 50+ character blitzes those Rikti monkeys?  What effort is expended by the level 1 character standing in the door of Tina Macintyre and Maria Jenkins' arcs while a maxed out character knocks out Dimensional Warder?  In what way is that level 1 character "working" toward the Unveiler badge when that character is just watching the 50+ two-shot -1 lieutenant Fake Nemeses?

 

As I said, the level restriction is there for a reason.  If level 1 characters are allowed to unlock and use accolade bonuses, then content has to be designed with the expectation that those accolade bonuses are unlocked and in use, placing an unreasonable burden of acquisition on players.  A new player doesn't even know what an accolade is, much less how to obtain one or why they'd matter, but because the content was designed to require accolades, he/she would be unfairly penalized, denied access to some content which should have been made accessible, and possibly belittled and ostracized by "smarter" players for... being new.

 

If the content isn't designed to account for the accolades, it's too easy for those who have them.  The bitching and moaning about how easy everything is... well, look at what some of the forumites are saying these days.  Power creep is a real problem for some people, it leads to ennui and dissatisfaction, and they have no qualms about voicing it on the forums.  They have all of the best IO sets, full Incarnates, mountains of inf* and merits and +1 level inspirations, and they're not challenged by anything.  Imagine, for a moment, if that were true at level 1, rather than at level 50+3.

 

That design conundrum is why the restrictions were implemented.  And why they won't be removed.  There have to be some limitations, for the overall good of the game.  This is one.

[Completist]

That is a really smart response, which I appreciate. You make a lot of good points. I simply don't agree that the accolade level limits matter for the majority of players. The theory is sound, but the fact is, there is no rush to pick up accolade powers as soon as characters hit 21. No one says "Damn, now I've got this burden of acquisition or my 21-30 content is going to be too hard." You just play on and maybe go badge hunting to mix it up once in a while. The players it matters for are the ones like me, who like playing lower level stuff not in Flashbacks and want access to those rewards if they take the time to earn them.

 

The content is all designed already. It wouldn't have to be changed to accommodate those few players seeking to farm zookeeper at level 1. And those players would be the ones who are already doing it for novelty value. Yeah, you'd have an advantage over other characters of your level, but for how long? You can get to level 20 in a couple DFBs. If the goal is just "get levels", AE exists. The fact that "other people can help you speed through challenges" is universal and irrelevant. 

 

"What effort is expended by the level 1 character standing in the door of Tina Macintyre and Maria Jenkins' arcs while a maxed out character knocks out Dimensional Warder?" About as much as the guy "knocking it out" for them. Accolade badges represent a different kind of progression; And yes, much of it is grinding. Cruising Striga Isle for werewolves in a big group. Tracking down every exploration badge and history plaque. It's silly, but it's work. And players should be rewarded for it, regardless of level. Rewarded with the badge, and the accolade power.

 

Portal Jockey (req. Dimensional Warder) supports my assertion, since isn't one of the level locked badges I'm talking about. It's possible to get at level 1, but normal people don't bother, because it's difficult, and easier to get later when you're a higher level. As someone who has been slowly accumulating the necessary Praetorian defeats (11/14!) for Dimensional Warder at an artificially low level, I can confirm that it is not a walk in the park! It would be much easier to level to 50 sitting in some dude's AE farm. When I finally complete it I will feel some serious satisfaction, and I'll feel proud I got it at level 15. The "hey just get to level 35 then we'll talk" progress bar for Vanguard is just disappointing.

 

If it's a balance issue (which I find doubtful), at least give me the badge.

But then also let me have the power, thanks. 

Edited July 6, 2022 by Completist

[Rudra]

40 minutes ago, Completist said:

"What effort is expended by the level 1 character standing in the door of Tina Macintyre and Maria Jenkins' arcs while a maxed out character knocks out Dimensional Warder?" About as much as the guy "knocking it out" for them. Accolade badges represent a different kind of progression; And yes, much of it is grinding. Cruising Striga Isle for werewolves in a big group. Tracking down every exploration badge and history plaque. It's silly, but it's work.

I was going to stay out of this, but this comment changed my mind. You may be willing to run around while sidekicked up to help get things done, which is appreciated, but I can attest that most players don't. At least most players I've seen. If they're low level and door sitting? That is exactly what they are doing. They are standing at the mission entrance AFK. There is no effort on their part. If they are in a big group sweeping Striga for Council Warwolves? They are sitting comfortably back in a safe spot while those that are willing to put in the effort actually run around and hunt the wolves.

 

So no, they are not putting in "as much as the guy 'knocking it out' for them". Now please bear in mind, I don't actually have a problem with players door sitting. It is the idea that the door sitters, or zone sitters as it were, were putting in any effort at all for those badges and the unlocked accolades. While some may do so, the majority I have seen most definitely do not.

 

Sorry for the interruption. Please continue the discussion.

[TheZag]

I think most of the level locked accolades are in place because some of their badges were in level restricted hazard zones.  When the hazard zones had their restriction removed,  the accolades had level requirements added to keep them available at the same level as before the change.

 

Ive said it elsewhere that im usually not in favor of 1 restriction got loosened so give us just a bit more.  I feel accolade level requirements should remain to show players need to reach the level to achieve them.

 

[Completist]

How about Vanguard Merits and the Vanguard Recruit day job?

 

The Vanguard Recruit day job badge is level-locked to 35. 

 

Right now, characters of any level can get 10 Vanguard Merits by defeating the GM in a RWZ raid. 

I think the Vanguard Recruit badge should be unlocked for all levels, allowing players to get a few merits upon mission completion.

[Xalon]

It is probably this way because any lower level heroes or villains who enter will get 1 shotted by level 40s and 50s

 

[Psyonico]

You've got to kill 10 rikti in the war zone to get vanguard recruit (if that's the base I think it is)

 

Opening it up to all levels would mean that people would have to join someone a significantly higher level than they are to complete their own mission.

[Tatterhood]

1 hour ago, Xalon said:

It is probably this way because any lower level heroes or villains who enter will get 1 shotted by level 40s and 50s

This thread is a year and a half old and out of date. You can in fact enter all those zone from level 1 now.

[Rudra]

21 minutes ago, Tatterhood said:

This thread is a year and a half old and out of date. You can in fact enter all those zone from level 1 now.

The RWZ is open to all levels, yes, but the badge is still level 35 required. (You can earn credit towards Vanguard Recruit, but you won't get it until level 35. Though I am in favor of keeping it level-locked.)

[Tatterhood]

15 minutes ago, Rudra said:

The RWZ is open to all levels, yes, but the badge is still level 35 required. (You can earn credit towards Vanguard Recruit, but you won't get it until level 35. Though I am in favor of keeping it level-locked.)

I assumed the person who bumped the thread was talking about PvP zones.

[Rudra]

22 minutes ago, Tatterhood said:

I assumed the person who bumped the thread was talking about PvP zones.

My mistake then. Apologies.

[SupaFreak]

2 hours ago, Rudra said:

The RWZ is open to all levels, yes, but the badge is still level 35 required. (You can earn credit towards Vanguard Recruit, but you won't get it until level 35. Though I am in favor of keeping it level-locked.)

 

I agree.  Otherwise you would have low levels be able to have V-Merits slowly transferred to the via E-Mail - craft +10 Salvage Sack or - get Heavy Power Core way sooner than they should have it. 

I suggested an idea regarding adding a Vanguard Scout NPC in low level zones like 4-5 years ago here when HC started and MSR zone raids were super common daily.  Back when it was, I think, 10 V-Merits for 1 Reward Merit / 100 V-Merits for 10 Reward Merits?  It was all tied to possible Vanguard interests - financial and otherwise - and would've allowed pre-35 characters to be rewarded V-Merits from time to time but crafting requirements still requiring "Member of" badge to block that part from happening.  It was primarily to help boost the ability for low levels to get access to some additional Reward Merits on their way up.

 

As far as PvP related stuff with Accolades, etc - sounds like others answered that pretty well and that ground's been covered.

[Rudra]

50 minutes ago, SupaFreak said:

 

I agree.  Otherwise you would have low levels be able to have V-Merits slowly transferred to the via E-Mail - craft +10 Salvage Sack or - get Heavy Power Core way sooner than they should have it. 

I suggested an idea regarding adding a Vanguard Scout NPC in low level zones like 4-5 years ago here when HC started and MSR zone raids were super common daily.  Back when it was, I think, 10 V-Merits for 1 Reward Merit / 100 V-Merits for 10 Reward Merits?  It was all tied to possible Vanguard interests - financial and otherwise - and would've allowed pre-35 characters to be rewarded V-Merits from time to time but crafting requirements still requiring "Member of" badge to block that part from happening.  It was primarily to help boost the ability for low levels to get access to some additional Reward Merits on their way up.

 

As far as PvP related stuff with Accolades, etc - sounds like others answered that pretty well and that ground's been covered.

If all the devs do is boost everything's speed to match the Swift boost our characters get and that is all they do? That would be fine with me. I both understand and don't understand the opposition to Health and Stamina, but the push back was very much expected. I personally think giving enemies Stamina and Health would be good to do, but I also realize I am either in a small minority or am the lone voice with that opinion. The thing I'm keeping in mind is that yes, the biggest complaint about the game being too easy is from teams, but it is also being voiced from players soloing TFs/SFs. So while it would slightly, and I'm of the opinion it would only be very slightly, make it take longer to defeat a mob or sap the mob's END to 0, I disagree about the extent to which some claims have been made on this thread. (As someone who has elec' characters routinely zero enemy END bars, even on characters that focus on damage rather than END modification, I don't see how sapping is 3rd rate in this game or how a 25% Recovery buff will make it as worthless as the opinions against seem it will become.)

 

Edit: Wrong thread. Apologies.

Edited January 28 by Rudra

[SupaFreak]

12 minutes ago, Rudra said:

I both understand and don't understand the opposition to Health and Stamina, but the push back was very much expected. I personally think giving enemies Stamina and Health would be good to do, but I also realize I am either in a small minority or am the lone voice with that opinion.

 

Main reason for me is - the Endurance sapping aspect for players - not so much the Regen aspect at all really.  If enemies were to get more End Recovery - then I would want those who love their End sapping characters to have their powers boosted to offset it.

 

For all 7 of my MMs - I think only my Thugs seldomly have End issues.  Primarily the Brawler boss one.  Is it an issue with other MMs I'm not aware of?

 

*adding*

I haven't played Electric Blast since Live - I know the Sap aspect got boosted by HC - but on Live, I was disheartened with how little I sapped End with all the enhancements I dropped in the powers.  I don't want to make anyone feel their Electric powers suck... at sucking.

 

*also adding*

I think I'm replying to you replying in wrong topic?

 

Edited January 28 by SupaFreak

[Rudra]

29 minutes ago, Rudra said:

If all the devs do is boost everything's speed to match the Swift boost our characters get and that is all they do? That would be fine with me. I both understand and don't understand the opposition to Health and Stamina, but the push back was very much expected. I personally think giving enemies Stamina and Health would be good to do, but I also realize I am either in a small minority or am the lone voice with that opinion. The thing I'm keeping in mind is that yes, the biggest complaint about the game being too easy is from teams, but it is also being voiced from players soloing TFs/SFs. So while it would slightly, and I'm of the opinion it would only be very slightly, make it take longer to defeat a mob or sap the mob's END to 0, I disagree about the extent to which some claims have been made on this thread. (As someone who has elec' characters routinely zero enemy END bars, even on characters that focus on damage rather than END modification, I don't see how sapping is 3rd rate in this game or how a 25% Recovery buff will make it as worthless as the opinions against seem it will become.)

*sigh* Wrong thread. Moving comment to correct thread....

(Edit: Sorry, @SupaFreak. I posted my response in the order I went through my notices about your posts. So I responded on the wrong thread.)

Edited January 28 by Rudra