Too strong

[Erratic1]

2 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

 

That's not a very good argument because its premise isn't factual.

 

Neither was popularity as a measure of balance.

 

 

2 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

 

There isn't much different between Brute and tanker gameplay if built right with normal content.

 

But usually people gravitate towards the shiny and new.  Which is/was tankers.

 

Just to push the limits in a new way - doesn't mean they are an outlier.

 

As I noted above, I am ambivalent on the matter. And I noted a methodology one might go about qualifying the matter. 

[Infinitum]

1 minute ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Which is?

Well that's based on my opinion but anything within the range of -1 to +4 and 1 to 8.

 

All the ITF tricks most people don't even know exist that even open the debate for a tanker having an edge over any other AT.

[Infinitum]

1 minute ago, Erratic1 said:

Neither was popularity as a measure of balance

 

It actually is when a very small portion of the population was playing them.

 

There was a reason.  Brute's we're > Tankers for most things because you could build them to tanker levels of survivability with vastly more damage.  Now it's just an agreeable amount of more dmg due to the tanker buff IMO

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 minute ago, Infinitum said:

Well that's based on my opinion but anything within the range of -1 to +4 and 1 to 8.

 

All the ITF tricks most people don't even know exist that even open the debate for a tanker having an edge over any other AT.

 

Ok, so do faceplants matter? When the brute at lvl 30 on SOs fails to complete a mission at +4/x8 where the tank succeeds, and the time to complete goes to the tank, does it matter?

[Erratic1]

1 minute ago, Infinitum said:

 

It actually is when a very small portion of the population was playing them.

 

No, it really isn't.

[Bill Z Bubba]

Just now, Infinitum said:

 

It actually is when a very small portion of the population was playing them.

 

There was a reason.  Brute's we're > Tankers for most things because you could build them to tanker levels of survivability with vastly more damage.  Now it's just an agreeable amount of more dmg due to the tanker buff IMO

 

This was only true on teams. Brutes can NOT build to to tank level survivability. What about soloing? How much time was lost when waiting for invites or teams to form for the teamers? How much xp/time was lost?

[Infinitum]

1 minute ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Ok, so do faceplants matter? When the brute at lvl 30 on SOs fails to complete a mission at +4/x8 where the tank succeeds, and the time to complete goes to the tank, does it matter?

 

To be honest. I don't know.

 

What about when the brute gets more mitigation at level 32 and now can outpace the tanker?

 

I really don't know - it's been at least 2 years since I have leveled up like that and probably live days since I used SOs.

[Infinitum]

1 minute ago, Erratic1 said:

 

No, it really isn't.

 

It is - when there is a reason behind it.

[Infinitum]

3 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

This was only true on teams. Brutes can NOT build to to tank level survivability. What about soloing? How much time was lost when waiting for invites or teams to form for the teamers? How much xp/time was lost?

 

Sure they can - maybe not to suit a no insp buffed enemy ITF.  But that isn't normal and shouldn't be a point of balance.

 

I have done it on several.

Edited August 11, 2022 by Infinitum

[Bill Z Bubba]

Just now, Infinitum said:

What about when the brute gets more mitigation at level 32 and now can outpace the tanker?

 

Impossible solo. It doesn't happen. Give me your absolute best brute build and a tank using the same slotting has superior mitigation. Brutes can ONLY achieve NEAR-tank mitigation on teams. Otherwise, they're scrappers with higher base HP.

[Infinitum]

1 minute ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Impossible solo. It doesn't happen. Give me your absolute best brute build and a tank using the same slotting has superior mitigation. Brutes can ONLY achieve NEAR-tank mitigation on teams. Otherwise, they're scrappers with higher base HP.

 

They still won't have any trouble soloing +4/8 anything.

 

Unless it's Regen of course

Edited August 11, 2022 by Infinitum

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 minute ago, Infinitum said:

I have done it on several.

 

No, you haven't. Check HP levels.

[Infinitum]

Just now, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

No, you haven't. Check HP levels.

 

I mean I can survive as good as an equivalent tanker - with more damage especially single target.

[Bill Z Bubba]

Just now, Infinitum said:

I mean I can survive as good as an equivalent tanker - with more damage especially single target.

 

Against what? And is against what relevant? Against max diff carnies? Council? Incarnate IDF? Show your clear all times against all of them. With or without incarnate powers in play. Does that matter? Yes, a brute is superior to a tanker in anything that the brute can survive against. Same is true for scrapper superiority. And tanks are superior everywhere else.

[Bill Z Bubba]

And in the places where no one is capable of dying, tanks get the win because they can slot for more damage where scraps/brutes have to slot for survivability.

[Infinitum]

Just now, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Against what? And is against what relevant? Against max diff carnies? Council? Incarnate IDF? Show your clear all times against all of them. With or without incarnate powers in play. Does that matter? Yes, a brute is superior to a tanker in anything that the brute can survive against. Same is true for scrapper superiority. And tanks are superior everywhere else.

 

Against any of that.  Like I said I have done it on several different types.  

 

Tanker honestly gets excess survivability - which only comes into play on hard mode type content.

 

I can build a scrapper and stalker to survive just as good as my tankers also while doing vastly more damage - the health bar moves more but it is still survivable.

 

Any of that is possible - and let me answer this before I am asked. I prefer tankers because I identify with them and have since live. It is a nostalgia thing that I am elated they now have more damage to be more relevant.

[Infinitum]

1 minute ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

And in the places where no one is capable of dying, tanks get the win because they can slot for more damage where scraps/brutes have to slot for survivability.

 

It's not that cut and dry - because you they can never slot for enough damage to surpass a stalker scrapper or brute.  They can get close to a brute but the brute will still win out in damage and still survive the content.  They all will even if the more dmg oriented slot for survivability because they can also crit and leverage ATOs that maximize that.

[Spaghetti Betty]

I got lost trying to keep up in the debate but I just wanna add some of my own experiences.

 

This is all with amps and 2x XP, but I don't think that's fairly uncommon these days.

 

I recently had a Fire/Ice Tank go from 1-32 in a day playing my usual route (1 door mish to lvl 5, straight to hollows, Striga, then Croatoa). By level 16 I had the diff cranked up to +1×8.

 

I'm also working on a Rad/MA. That one took a bit to really get rolling since all the AoE comes around the same time (early-mid 20s) but now blows up +2×8 content at lvl 30 something. I suspect I'll be able to bump up to +3 fairly soon.

 

And I've had a Bio/Kat Tank in the past that was soloing +4x8 and lead tanking 54 ITFs by lvl 35. (This was without Amps)

 

I don't have toons of any other AT that can manage this. 

[Bill Z Bubba]

Just now, Infinitum said:

It's not that cut and dry - because you they can never slot for enough damage to surpass a stalker scrapper or brute.  They can get close to a brute but the brute will still win out in damage and still survive the content.  They all will even if the more dmg oriented slot for survivability because they can also crit and leverage ATOs that maximize that.

 

I'm not denying that scrappers and brutes can outdamage tanks. What I have issue with is the complete dismissal that tanks surviving when scrappers and brutes can't is something that is meaningless.

 

As you have done repeatedly with statements like this:

 

4 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Tanker honestly gets excess survivability - which only comes into play on hard mode type content.

[Infinitum]

1 minute ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

I'm not denying that scrappers and brutes can outdamage tanks. What I have issue with is the complete dismissal that tanks surviving when scrappers and brutes can't is something that is meaningless.

 

As you have done repeatedly with statements like this:

It is meaningless when it doesn't come in to play.  Like ever outside of hard mode type content.

 

But the extra damage from the other 3 does come in to play.  That isn't to say they are more valuable. Each just has a different role now.

 

They all are viable. They all are fun. They all contribute.

 

That was not largely agreed on before the tanker buff.  Many said tankers could not contribute on a team and they weren't completely wrong. You had a bag of hp and excess survivability that just stood there as the team steamrolled content that didn't need what the tankers main contribution while the tanker could get off a few shots if it was lucky.

 

At least now they can contribute more damage and now with hard mode content make use of the survivability.

[Sovera]

Tankers are like Sentinels. Everyone brags about their survival and then ditches them to play something stronger and faster since the IO game makes damage and not survival the goal.

 

In all tests Tanks are slower so it is perfectly normal that the playerbase that sticks to regular easy-ish content goes to play something else since whatever other pick can do the same.

 

When the content is no longer easy, such as soloing some TFs at max (not even all of them) then Tankers shine once more.

 

Tanker buff for AoE is useless despite being mentioned so often. It serves no purpose since rarely do the initial mobs survive more than a couple AoEs and only in farming there are enough enemies to keep streaming in, and sometimes be so many in number that they cannot physically get closer. And yet despite this Brutes are -still- factually faster at AoE clears.

 

I'm not even sure why this keeps on being brought up. In a team a Brute only loses to a Tanker because of 500 HP, otherwise the first AT that throws a bubble or a shield caps a Brute's resists and/or defenses. Difference being the Tanker can do it alone, but then the buffs are semi useless to them since they can reach the cap themselves with a good build.

[Bill Z Bubba]

3 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

It is meaningless when it doesn't come in to play.  Like ever outside of hard mode type content.

 

This is a completely false statement when the tank can push diff higher and gain more XP/hr while leveling from 1 to 50.

 

4 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

They all are viable. They all are fun. They all contribute.

 

Irrelevant.

 

5 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

That was not largely agreed on before the tanker buff.  Many said tankers could not contribute on a team and they weren't completely wrong. You had a bag of hp and excess survivability that just stood there as the team steamrolled content that didn't need what the tankers main contribution while the tanker could get off a few shots if it was lucky.

 

Still true on a team of corruptors where I'd rather have a brute than a tank. And irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

 

6 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

At least now they can contribute more damage and now with hard mode content make use of the survivability.

 

And have more damage while outpacing their brute and scrapper counterparts on leveling from 1 to 50 because they can push the diff higher and get better XP/hr-min-whatever.

[Bill Z Bubba]

6 minutes ago, Sovera said:

Tanker buff for AoE is useless despite being mentioned so often. It serves no purpose since rarely do the initial mobs survive more than a couple AoEs and only in farming there are enough enemies to keep streaming in, and sometimes be so many in number that they cannot physically get closer. And yet despite this Brutes are -still- factually faster at AoE clears.

 

Now compound that "useless" extra damage by 1000 missions as you level from 1 to 50 and pushing the diff up earlier so that each spawn DOES have enough enemies for it to matter.

[Infinitum]

6 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

This is a completely false statement when the tank can push diff higher and gain more XP/hr while leveling from 1 to 50.

 

Have to disagree here based on my experience which is diametrically opposed to this 

 

6 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Irrelevant

 

Hardly. This is after all a game. Each of those metrics matter.

 

7 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Still true on a team of corruptors where I'd rather have a brute than a tank. And irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

 

It isn't irrelevant - because why wouldn't you choose the tanker over the Brute here?  I will answer it for you. More damage for the Brute. Survivability here in this situation is a non issue. You could pick a petless mastermind with most teams and still be ok 

9 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

And have more damage while outpacing their brute and scrapper counterparts on leveling from 1 to 50 because they can push the diff higher and get better XP/hr-min-whatever.

 

Which isn't a metric that matters even if it were true - which my gut tells isn't true either way IMO.

 

I have proven the opposite in the Brutal mission simulator several times and pylon tests also that tanker dmg doesn't surpass brute dmg while brutes conversely can survive the incoming dmg without any difficulty.

 

So that's where I will leave it - I don't think there is an acid test that will ever satisfy your goals here.  So sorry, but have to disagree with your premise based on my own berth of experience across at least 80 melee characters through my CoH life.

[Sovera]

4 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Now compound that "useless" extra damage by 1000 missions as you level from 1 to 50 and pushing the diff up earlier so that each spawn DOES have enough enemies for it to matter.

 

I do have a thousand missions under my belt and extensive Brute and Tanker soloing. This is how I see it:

 

- Tanker always finishes around ten minutes slower the same TF despite much vaunted AoE buff.

- Attempts at increasing the difficulty will increase the gap so that ten minutes will be 15 or 20.

- Brute finishes 10 minutes earlier (or 15, or 20) and starts the next leg of the trip that much sooner.

 

 

Educated assumption: going from +1 to +2 will not be 100% more XP so the Brute remains ahead and does more content per minute than the already plodding Tanker now plodding even more because higher difficulty = less damage dealt.

 

It's just an assumption though. Maybe the Tanker will pull ahead. It's not my experience though. It takes tougher factions for the Brute to falter and this is under the self imposed rule of not using inspirations because the faltering is propped up.