Too strong

[Bill Z Bubba]

  On 8/11/2022 at 11:59 PM, Infinitum said:

It isn't irrelevant - because why wouldn't you choose the tanker over the Brute here?  I will answer it for you. More damage for the Brute. Survivability here in this situation is a non issue. You could pick a petless mastermind with most teams and still be ok 

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Sure I could, if I wanted something completely useless to the team that provides nothing of worth to the team and didn't want any aggro control at all.

 

  On 8/11/2022 at 11:59 PM, Infinitum said:

Which isn't a metric that matters even if it were true - which my gut tells isn't true either way IMO.

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I'm not interesting in your gut. I like facts.

 

  On 8/11/2022 at 11:59 PM, Infinitum said:

I have proven the opposite in the Brutal mission simulator several times and pylon tests also that tanker dmg doesn't surpass brute dmg while brutes conversely can survive the incoming dmg without any difficulty.

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Yup, even my corruptors can take down a pylon without fear of the incoming damage. Irrelevant. Pylon damage test are 100% only useful for determining  ST damage output.

 

  On 8/11/2022 at 11:59 PM, Infinitum said:

So that's where I will leave it - I don't think there is an acid test that will ever satisfy your goals here.  So sorry, but have to disagree with your premise based on my own berth of experience across at least 80 melee characters through my CoH life.

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I get it. Your bias is strong.

[Bill Z Bubba]

  On 8/12/2022 at 12:01 AM, Sovera said:

It takes tougher factions for the Brute to falter and this is under the self imposed rule of not using inspirations because the faltering is propped up.

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I live under that same rule when testing. Perhaps we're wrong to do so. Perhaps we're not.

 

  On 8/12/2022 at 12:01 AM, Sovera said:

- Tanker always finishes around ten minutes slower the same TF despite much vaunted AoE buff.

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This is what I want tested more.

[Sovera]

I'll just add that soloing difficult content has always been the realm of tanks. When some people do world firsts solos of dungeons or raids in WoW they don't take a Mage, or a Warrior, or a Shaman. They go at it with a Blood tank so that they survive the damage and heal up. The goal is not to do big damage but to survive and then whittle the enemy down.

 

The one time it was done with a Rogue wasn't for the DPS but for the teleport so that they could teleport up a and down a ramp while the raid boss walked the distance giving time for cooldowns of potions and defensives to reset.

[Erratic1]

  On 8/12/2022 at 12:01 AM, Sovera said:

 

I do have a thousand missions under my belt and extensive Brute and Tanker soloing. This is how I see it:

 

- Tanker always finishes around ten minutes slower the same TF despite much vaunted AoE buff.

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Mission != TF

 

I know of few people who level exclusively by TF let alone who solo 1000 TFs while levelling.

[Infinitum]

  On 8/12/2022 at 12:03 AM, Bill Z Bubba said:

I get it. Your bias is strong.

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So is yours, and there we are 

[Bill Z Bubba]

  On 8/12/2022 at 12:06 AM, Sovera said:

I'll just add that soloing difficult content has always been the realm of tanks. When some people do world firsts solos of dungeons or raids in WoW they don't take a Mage, or a Warrior, or a Shaman. They go at it with a Blood tank so that they survive the damage and heal up. The goal is not to do big damage but to survive and then whittle the enemy down.

 

The one time it was done with a Rogue wasn't for the DPS but for the teleport so that they could teleport up a and down a ramp while the raid boss walked the distance giving time for cooldowns of potions and defensives to reset.

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Great. Then tanks should be returned to how they were when they deserved no such buffs as they received.

[Infinitum]

  On 8/12/2022 at 12:03 AM, Bill Z Bubba said:

I'm not interesting in your gut. I like facts.

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Then provide some.

[Bill Z Bubba]

  On 8/12/2022 at 12:16 AM, Infinitum said:

So is yours, and there we are 

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My biases aren't keeping an overpowered AT overpowered. They're geared toward making all the ATs competitive with each other.

[Bill Z Bubba]

  On 8/12/2022 at 12:19 AM, Infinitum said:

Then provide some.

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As stated earlier, I have. They were discounted since I only used claws and SR.

[Infinitum]

  On 8/12/2022 at 12:21 AM, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

My biases aren't keeping an overpowered AT overpowered. They're geared toward making all the ATs competitive with each other.

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That is currently your opinion but your bias prevents you from seeing they already are competitive and balanced the way they need to be.

[Sovera]

  On 8/12/2022 at 12:07 AM, Erratic1 said:

Mission != TF

 

I know of few people who level exclusively by TF let alone who solo 1000 TFs while levelling.

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Not sure what you're disagreeing with. I said in my experience a Tanker finishes a TF ten minutes sooner. You must be one of the few that does not need a quadrillion TFs to level from 1 to 50 though. Heck, most people I know require two thousand TFs just to reach level 50.

 

 

Hyperbolic funsies aside.

 

If you want to see a single mission then look at the Trapdoor tests. Plenty of Brutes and Tankers have tried their hand and left their results there. Double stacked Rage and procced out Rad Armor skew the numbers just like any AT comboing TW and Bio used to skew the numbers.

 

My own best times with a Brute were 4:42 and for a Tanker six minutes. Neither were in any particular danger. My worst time on a Brute was 6:13 having traded offense for defense. Again, what was the point? +4x8 Arachnos were not difficult so the trade was not worth it since the squishier build was still safe. Anyone only doing that sort of content will naturally gravitate to the 4:42 side of things instead of the six minutes.

 

Anyone who wants more sturdiness for harder content will trade that minute and fifteen seconds for the survival of a beefier AT which is how we return to this point in the conversation. For most easier content (especially in full teams who obliterate and invariably have buffs) the Brute is still the 'best' choice in a world where people pick CoH up and play only the best and not what they have fun with.

[Infinitum]

  On 8/12/2022 at 12:21 AM, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

As stated earlier, I have. They were discounted since I only used claws and SR.

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For valid reasons.

[Erratic1]

  On 8/12/2022 at 12:23 AM, Sovera said:

If you want to see a single mission then look at the Trapdoor tests. Plenty of Brutes and Tankers have tried their hand and left their results there. Double stacked Rage and procced out Rad Armor skew the numbers just like any AT comboing TW and Bio used to skew the numbers.

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You seem to be utterly missing the point Bill Z Bubba was making. He spoke of a mission soloing advantage through being able to turn up difficulty. That is not soloing TFs nor is it doing Trap Door. If you want to discuss those other things, fine, but the response you made does not in any way (so far) discount what Bill Z Bubba was saying.

[Spaghetti Betty]

  On 8/12/2022 at 12:06 AM, Sovera said:

When some people do world firsts solos of dungeons or raids in WoW they don't take a Mage, or a Warrior, or a Shaman. They go at it with a Blood tank so that they survive the damage and heal up.

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Blood DKs are still that strong? I recall they had to be nerfed heavily many times because they were out DPSing Frost and Unholy DKs while having the best survivability of any other tank spec in the game.

[Bill Z Bubba]

As usual, we end up with the normal crowd ignoring factual data, claiming it irrelevant, because it doesn't suit their biased falsehood-based horseshit. Trapdoor don't matter cuz certain powersets are winning! Claws don't matter cuz XYZ!

 

Ain't no different than modern day politics trying to explain reality to folks that think a sky fairy cares who you fuck.

[Sovera]

  On 8/12/2022 at 12:25 AM, Erratic1 said:

 

You seem to be utterly missing the point Bill Z Bubba was making. He spoke of a mission soloing advantage through being able to turn up difficulty. That is not soloing TFs nor is it doing Trap Door. If you want to discuss those other things, fine, but the response you made does not in any way (so far) discount what Bill Z Bubba was saying.

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It's still just a matter of % though. If Trapdoor is not good enough (and to be fair it is not in the particular metric of leveling) then pick a mission and run it on a Tanker at +2 and a Brute at +1 and compare times.

 

 

  On 8/12/2022 at 12:26 AM, Spaghetti Betty said:

Blood DKs are still that strong? I recall they had to be nerfed heavily many times because they were out DPSing Frost and Unholy DKs while having the best survivability of any other tank spec in the game.

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They are not brought to solo dungeons or raids for their damage but their vampiric tanking. If they can survive they can whittle an enemy down since mobs in WoW don't have the insane regen CoH has.

 

 

  On 8/12/2022 at 12:32 AM, Bill Z Bubba said:

As usual, we end up with the normal crowd ignoring factual data, claiming it irrelevant, because it doesn't suit their biased falsehood-based horseshit. Trapdoor don't matter cuz certain powersets are winning! Claws don't matter cuz XYZ!

 

Ain't no different than modern day politics trying to explain reality to folks that think a sky fairy cares who you fuck.

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You've become more and more abrasive as time goes and your white knighting for Brutes to return to being the undisputed OP AT is not satisfied. What used to be a good argument has turned into... this. I'm bailing out and frankly not engaging anymore until this new cantankerous fad of yours passes.

[Bill Z Bubba]

  On 8/12/2022 at 12:40 AM, Sovera said:

You've become more and more abrasive as time goes and your white knighting for Brutes to return to being the undisputed OP AT is not satisfied. What used to be a good argument has turned into... this. I'm bailing out and frankly not engaging anymore until this new cantankerous fad of yours passes.

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But thank you so much for the completely unfounded opinion of my motivations for this conversation. I don't want brutes on top. I don't want scrappers on top. I don't want tanks on top. I want them to all have 100% identical xp/hr from 1 to 50. So, g-bye. Thanks for your useless input.

[Erratic1]

  On 8/12/2022 at 12:40 AM, Sovera said:

It's still just a matter of % though. If Trapdoor is not good enough (and to be fair it is not in the particular metric of leveling) then pick a mission and run it on a Tanker at +2 and a Brute at +1 and compare times.

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I am not sure what a Tanker+2 and Brute+1 is supposed to indicate. If they clear it in the same time...what? The Tanker got more xp for it being +2. Like I said earlier, find the point where the Brute is just surviving then compare what the Tanker can manage to squeeze out. If he is as fast at the same level (bigger area means something) or is able to up difficulty further (and hence get more xp) then I am not sure how it will be maintained everything if fine but doubtlessly someone will surprise me.

[Infinitum]

  On 8/12/2022 at 12:42 AM, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

But thank you so much for the completely unfounded opinion of my motivations for this conversation. I don't want brutes on top. I don't want scrappers on top. I don't want tanks on top. I want them to all have 100% identical xp/hr from 1 to 50. So, g-bye. Thanks for your useless input.

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And I want a unicorn that farts cookies but not just any cookie. Snickerdoodle cookies.

 

And I am not enjoying cookies anymore until that happens.

Edited August 12, 2022 by Infinitum

[Bill Z Bubba]

  On 8/12/2022 at 12:56 AM, Infinitum said:

And I want a unicorn that farts cookies but not just any cookie. Snickerdoodle cookies.

 

And I am not enjoying cookies anymore until that happens.

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A perfect post for your side of the argument. Thank you.

 

[Infinitum]

  On 8/12/2022 at 1:00 AM, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

A perfect post for your side of the argument. Thank you.

 

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It makes as much sense as this gem.

 

  On 8/12/2022 at 12:42 AM, Bill Z Bubba said:

I want them to all have 100% identical xp/hr from 1 to 50.

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That's not grounded in any kind of achievable reality and further illustrates your psychosis about this nonexistent issue about tankers 

[Sovera]

  On 8/12/2022 at 12:52 AM, Erratic1 said:

 

I am not sure what a Tanker+2 and Brute+1 is supposed to indicate. If they clear it in the same time...what? The Tanker got more xp for it being +2. Like I said earlier, find the point where the Brute is just surviving then compare what the Tanker can manage to squeeze out. If he is as fast at the same level (bigger area means something) or is able to up difficulty further (and hence get more xp) then I am not sure how it will be maintained everything if fine but doubtlessly someone will surprise me.

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Then the Tanker is ahead. So far the argument has been that the Tanker levels faster than the Brute because the Tanker can up the difficulty and reap more XP and thus reach 50 faster. My counter point was that the Tanker is already slower than the Brute to begin with and higher difficulty will just make it more so making the Brute do more content per minute.

 

I could be wrong. Maybe the Tanker finishes in the same time of the Brute and gets more XP on top of that. That would put the Tanker frankly ahead while leveling.

 

It's not my experience though. Tankers clear slowly, the AoE buff is worthless, and Brutes, without the AoE buff, still finish first. Now adding more difficulty makes the Tanker clear even slower. If +2 was double the XP of +1 then I could see the point, but as it is more content per minute wins out.

 

 

I don't have a horse in this race. I haven't even played Tankers in the past year having focused exclusively on Brutes, so it's not like I'm trying to protect the AT since it is my main or whatever. I just don't see this perceived OPness of Tankers since they are overbeefy for regular content and only get to shine once harder content is attempted.... which is alright in my book. That is why they exist. For the harder content.

[Infinitum]

  On 8/12/2022 at 1:04 AM, Sovera said:

 

It's not my experience though. Tankers clear slowly, the AoE buff is worthless, and Brutes, without the AoE buff, still finish first. Now adding more difficulty makes the Tanker clear even slower. If +2 was double the XP of +1 then I could see the point, but as it is more content per minute wins out.

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I don't understand why this is so hard to grasp for some.

 

  On 8/12/2022 at 1:04 AM, Sovera said:

I just don't see this perceived OPness of Tankers since they are overbeefy for regular content and only get to shine once harder content is attempted...

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This.  This. I don't understand why this is so difficult to grasp either 

 

  On 8/12/2022 at 1:04 AM, Sovera said:

which is alright in my book. That is why they exist. For the harder content.

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I mean it is as close to perfect IMO as the melee AT balance has ever been.  I don't play ranged so I can't speak to that 

[Erratic1]

  On 8/12/2022 at 1:04 AM, Sovera said:

I don't have a horse in this race. I haven't even played Tankers in the past year having focused exclusively on Brutes, so it's not like I'm trying to protect the AT since it is my main or whatever. I just don't see this perceived OPness of Tankers since they are overbeefy for regular content and only get to shine once harder content is attempted.... which is alright in my book. That is why they exist. For the harder content.

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I play both ATs and over all the disparity between the two ATs, if any, surpassed by a number of other things on what I would put on a "to be investigate/fixed" list.

[Bill Z Bubba]

  On 8/12/2022 at 1:03 AM, Infinitum said:

That's not grounded in any kind of achievable reality and further illustrates your psychosis about this nonexistent issue about tankers 

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Thanks for proving you don't understand simple math.